Five myths about Libertarianism

[Contumacious]

the MORAL value that suggest that the roads are a resource we hold IN COMMON, and therefore users are subject to regulation.

So much bullshit, so little time.

Yo Vern, let me ask

Can the Stop sign

favor one powerful faction over another?
become a yield sign for those who can provide it with power, wealth and prestige?

.

 

[editec]

Listen kiddies....those of you who imagine that your declaration that you are a LIBERTARIAN is telling us something important about you are deluding yourselves

As we have seen on this very board, Libertarianism is a THEME (an approach, a vague statement of values) not a set of rigid standards.

Everybody loves liberty.

That does not make them all libertarians, does it?

Or does it since NOBODY can define meaning of the word.

To me being libertarian means this:

The person who wants government limited to ONLY that which is necessary for a healthy and free society.

Now who does not agree?

But the problem isn't that definition, the problem is IN that definition .

Who decides what laws are absolutely necessary?

 

[Contumacious]

Listen kiddies....those of you who imagine that your declaration that you are a LIBERTARIAN is telling us something important about you are deluding yourselves

As we have seen on this very board, Libertarianism is a THEME (an approach, a vague statement of values) not a set of rigid standards.

Everybody loves liberty.
?

Incorrect.

You and your ilk prefer SECURITY over Liberty.

So long as you get benefits from the government and your belly is full you do not give a shit about liberty.

.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Are you something more than human tissue? If not, can I flush you down the toilet without repercussion? If yes, how, and when did it happen?

I am 100% human tissue, and whatever else human parts may be called, bone, etc., except for some dental work.

I have rights that fetuses don't have, because of the law.

The law does not give you rights, unless you count things like voting as a right.

All rights that are legally protected are given to us by the law. Where abortion is a legal right, a woman has the right to an abortion protected by the law. Where abortion is not legal, a woman does not have the right to an abortion protected by the law.

The law is the difference between her having the right or not having the right.

 

[NightFox]

the MORAL value that suggest that the roads are a resource we hold IN COMMON, and therefore users are subject to regulation.

So much bullshit, so little time.

Yo Vern, let me ask

Can the Stop sign

favor one powerful faction over another?
become a yield sign for those who can provide it with power, wealth and prestige?

.

You seem remarkably calm in the face of these shocking revelations that all this time stop signs have been out there foisting their morality on an unsuspecting public.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So apparently a Libertarian is someone who wants to get rid of the government he doesn't like,

and keep the government he does like.

Which is pretty much everyone's opinion.

I don't like any government.

I am, however, willing to keep some government around for the people who believe they need government in order to define their freedom.

Your will is not the determining factor.

 

[NYcarbineer]

You don't need to pass a law banning all abortion if you can demonstrate that a fetus is a human being since killing a human being is already against the law, right? It's also against generally accepted morality, right? If you cannot demonstrate that a fetus meets the generally accepted criteria for a human being then preventing the mother from aborting it would violate the mothers right to self-ownership, right?


It's just a piece of paper, it has words on it, it's not some magic relic that supplants the need for morality and reason.

The right to an abortion is God given isn't it? It's a woman's inalienable right.

No it isn't

It isn't because:

1. There are no such things as inalienable rights, God given, and therefore the Declaration of Independence is horseshit?

or

2. There are God given inalienable rights but abortion isn't one of them?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Actually you're the one that said that... go back and read who wrote what, personally I make an effort to refer to rights as granted by virtue of our humanity in an effort to be respectful of the religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of others.

Q. The right to an abortion is God given isn't it? It's a woman's inalienable right.


A. Only as long as it doesn't involve killing another human being.

Q.The right to an abortion is God given isn't it? It's a woman's inalienable right.

You wrote this

A. Only as long as it doesn't involve killing another human being.

I wrote this in response

Which one of us made the claim regarding "God Given" ?

You did.

Your response, in context, says 'yes, abortion is a God given right, if it doesn't involve killing another human being.'

 

[Contumacious]

I am 100% human tissue, and whatever else human parts may be called, bone, etc., except for some dental work.

I have rights that fetuses don't have, because of the law.

The law does not give you rights, unless you count things like voting as a right.

All rights that are legally protected are given to us by the law. Where abortion is a legal right, a woman has the right to an abortion protected by the law. Where abortion is not legal, a woman does not have the right to an abortion protected by the law.

The law is the difference between her having the right or not having the right.

More fascist/socialist bullshit.

The Law secures UNALIENABLE RIGHTS. The Law does not grant rights.

.

 

[NightFox]

Q. The right to an abortion is God given isn't it? It's a woman's inalienable right.


A. Only as long as it doesn't involve killing another human being.

You wrote this

A. Only as long as it doesn't involve killing another human being.

I wrote this in response

Which one of us made the claim regarding "God Given" ?

You did.

Your response, in context, says 'yes, abortion is a God given right, if it doesn't involve killing another human being.'

My response says two things:

1. I respect your religious views enough not to engage in the petty exercise of attempting to correct you
2. I have no desire to engage in a discussion regarding religion with you

Now if you are quite through with your disingenuous attempt to deny the obvious.. you think you can muster up a small modicum of honesty? or are you bound and determined to demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that discussing anything with you on a rational level is an exercise in futility?

 

[NYcarbineer]

That is the only issue in abortion. If it wasn't an issue no one would be arguing about it.

No one disputes that it's human. It's part of a human body. Nobody disputes that your tonsils are human, do they?

Do you understand what the word human means? Hair is not human, even if you can argue that it is human tissue at some point. Human is the entire thing that you are, and includes the ability to think and reason.

Come to think of it, you might not be human by that definition, which could totally explain your problem here.

You're referring to personhood, to treating the fetus as though it is sufficiently comparable to a person who has been born and thus must be treated exactly as born persons are treated,

all else being equal.

If you believe there is no material difference between a zygote consisting of a few human cells and, say, a two year old child,

then logically you believe that the penalty under the law for killing either of them should be the same.

 

[NYcarbineer]

You wrote this



I wrote this in response

Which one of us made the claim regarding "God Given" ?

You did.

Your response, in context, says 'yes, abortion is a God given right, if it doesn't involve killing another human being.'

My response says two things:

1. I respect your religious views enough not to engage in the petty exercise of attempting to correct you
2. I have no desire to engage in a discussion regarding religion with you

Now if you are quite through with your disingenuous attempt to deny the obvious.. you think you can muster up a small modicum of honesty? or are you bound and determined to demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that discussing anything with you on a rational level is an exercise in futility?

I don't have religious views on rights.

If you have no desire discussing religion, why did you answer the question at all?

 

[FA_Q2]

The right to an abortion is God given isn't it? It's a woman's inalienable right.

No it isn't

It isn't because:

1. There are no such things as inalienable rights, God given, and therefore the Declaration of Independence is horseshit?

or

2. There are God given inalienable rights but abortion isn't one of them?

Not all rights are protected. Some are inalienable and protected by law, others simply exist.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The law does not give you rights, unless you count things like voting as a right.

All rights that are legally protected are given to us by the law. Where abortion is a legal right, a woman has the right to an abortion protected by the law. Where abortion is not legal, a woman does not have the right to an abortion protected by the law.

The law is the difference between her having the right or not having the right.

More fascist/socialist bullshit.

The Law secures UNALIENABLE RIGHTS. The Law does not grant rights.

.

That's semantic gibberish.

Are you saying that abortion is a God given inalienable right, which under our system is now secured by our Constitution via Roe v. Wade?

 

[NYcarbineer]

No it isn't

It isn't because:

1. There are no such things as inalienable rights, God given, and therefore the Declaration of Independence is horseshit?

or

2. There are God given inalienable rights but abortion isn't one of them?

Not all rights are protected. Some are inalienable and protected by law, others simply exist.

And what is the authoritative source that gives us the list of rights deemed 'inalienable'?

 

[Foxfyre]

The right to an abortion is God given isn't it? It's a woman's inalienable right.

No it isn't

It isn't because:

1. There are no such things as inalienable rights, God given, and therefore the Declaration of Independence is horseshit?

or

2. There are God given inalienable rights but abortion isn't one of them?

It is a God given right to hold whatever convictions you hold re abortion. It is not a God given right to require somebody else perform an abortion. It is not a God given right to have somebody else pay for an abortion. It is not a God given right to destroy another life. It IS a God given right to utilize the willing services of others. It is NOT a God given right to demand that the services be provided.

An unalienable right is that which requires no contribution or participation from any other. Our laws can acknowledge and respect and enforce that concept, but unalienable rights precede government and would be impractical if not impossible to enumerate.

 

[NYcarbineer]

No it isn't

It isn't because:

1. There are no such things as inalienable rights, God given, and therefore the Declaration of Independence is horseshit?

or

2. There are God given inalienable rights but abortion isn't one of them?

It is a God given right to hold whatever convictions you hold re abortion. It is not a God given right to require somebody else perform an abortion. It is not a God given right to have somebody else pay for an abortion. It is not a God given right to destroy another life. It IS a God given right to utilize the willing services of others. It is NOT a God given right to demand that the services be provided.

An unalienable right is that which requires no contribution or participation from any other. Our laws can acknowledge and respect and enforce that concept, but unalienable rights precede government and would be impractical if not impossible to enumerate.

In order for any of the above to be true, you first have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the existence of God,

and having accomplished that, which you cannot of course,

you then have to prove that God holds all of the positions you attributed to God in your post,

which of course you also cannot.

Thus nothing in your post is of any value in a fact based debate.

 

[NightFox]

You did.

Your response, in context, says 'yes, abortion is a God given right, if it doesn't involve killing another human being.'

My response says two things:

1. I respect your religious views enough not to engage in the petty exercise of attempting to correct you
2. I have no desire to engage in a discussion regarding religion with you

Now if you are quite through with your disingenuous attempt to deny the obvious.. you think you can muster up a small modicum of honesty? or are you bound and determined to demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that discussing anything with you on a rational level is an exercise in futility?

I don't have religious views on rights.

I really don't care whether you do or not.

If you have no desire discussing religion, why did you answer the question at all?

Common courtesy and a desire to clarify my viewpoint on the fact that while I support the right of self-ownership that right is not applicable when the predicate is killing another human being. What I did not want to do is entice you to share your divine right of kings argument against the existence of natural rights or read any sermons (yeah I've been around the block a few times and can read the sign posts).

 

[Contumacious]

All rights that are legally protected are given to us by the law. Where abortion is a legal right, a woman has the right to an abortion protected by the law. Where abortion is not legal, a woman does not have the right to an abortion protected by the law.

The law is the difference between her having the right or not having the right.

More fascist/socialist bullshit.

The Law secures UNALIENABLE RIGHTS. The Law does not grant rights.

.

That's semantic gibberish.

Are you saying that abortion is a God given inalienable right, which under our system is now secured by our Constitution via Roe v. Wade?

More fascistic bullshit.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men

.

 

[NYcarbineer]

More fascist/socialist bullshit.

The Law secures UNALIENABLE RIGHTS. The Law does not grant rights.

.

That's semantic gibberish.

Are you saying that abortion is a God given inalienable right, which under our system is now secured by our Constitution via Roe v. Wade?

More fascistic bullshit.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men

.

The Declaration of Independence is essentially an opinion paper.

Why isn't abortion an inalienable right, secured by our Government?