Founding Fathers against Obama

[NoNukes]

Some of us reverently study history. Others are the ignoramuses who the Founding Fathers warned about.

A couple of hours is not exactly studying history.

Yes__ That was clearly the first time that I ever studied the Founding Fathers genius. Do I have to spell it out for you?

These two hours obviously made you an expert.

 

[peach174]

The "doctor/patient relationship" hasn't had any "power" in our health care system for quite a long time now.

"Obamacare" does nothing to fix that, but nothing to make it worse either.

ObamaCare destroys it...because The Government is in charge of what will be covered, and what won't.

TRY again 'MODERATOR'

No, "Obamacare" doesn't give "The Government" control over what will be covered and what won't - your health insurance company will make those decisions.

Just like now.

It's very amusing that you think calling me "MODERATOR" is some sort of insult.

Oh yes it does, in Medicare and Medicaid.

The Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB, is a fifteen-member United States Government agency created in 2010 by sections 3403 and 10320 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

Beginning in 2013, the Chief Actuary of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services will determine in particular years the projected per capita growth rate for Medicare for a multi-year period ending in the second year thereafter (the "implementation year"). If the projection exceeds a target growth rate, IPAB must develop a proposal to reduce Medicare spending in the implementation year by a specified amount

It also provides grants to companies, for employees , they must eat healthy foods provided in their cafeterias, bringing lunches is prohibited and they must exercise in the work place as well as at home.

 

[JakeStarkey]

A couple of hours is not exactly studying history.

Yes__ That was clearly the first time that I ever studied the Founding Fathers genius. Do I have to spell it out for you?

These two hours obviously made you an expert.

Of course TGG is an expert. Just ask him!

 

[NYcarbineer]

Yes__ That was clearly the first time that I ever studied the Founding Fathers genius. Do I have to spell it out for you?

These two hours obviously made you an expert.

Of course TGG is an expert. Just ask him!

He's an expert on "The Great Gatsby" too...

...having seen the movie twice.

go ahead, think about it...

 

[JakeStarkey]

He thinks he's Daisy?

 

[NYcarbineer]

And give power BACK to the doctor/patient relationship...and individual responsibility?

The "doctor/patient relationship" hasn't had any "power" in our health care system for quite a long time now.

"Obamacare" does nothing to fix that, but nothing to make it worse either.

ObamaCare destroys it...because The Government is in charge of what will be covered, and what won't.

TRY again 'MODERATOR'

So in your world, when a patient on Medicare or Medicaid, for example, goes to the doctor, and the doctor and patient decide what treatments the patient should get,

the government should have NO say in whether or not they'll be paid for by Medicaid or Medicare? The government should just shut up and pay up,

no matter what it is the patient and doctor decide on?

Seriously?

 

[NYcarbineer]

He thinks he's Daisy?

He had Raisinets at the first viewing, so he's also an expert on chocolate covered fruit snacks.

 

[NYcarbineer]

When Owebama was Senator, he wrote a letter to Bush explaining why he planned to join the fillabuster to stop reform of Freddie and Fannie, whose $1.5 trillion default was the poison pill that crashed the CDS market. That fillabuster threat stopped the final attempt Bush made for reform.

So yes, you could say Owebama was at fault here.

I'd like to see a link if you have one.

Here is one reference to it..

'But as a freshman senator, Mr. Obama supported a threatened 2005 filibuster of a bill regulating Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. He doesn't show "a lot of shame" that he and other Fannie and Freddie defenders blocked "a regulatory system" that might have kept America from getting in such a bad pickle in the first place'

Karl Rove: The President Is No B+ - WSJ.com

Didn't the real estate market peak in 2006?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

The actual problem is pandering incompetents W and Reagan, obviously. Duh. Not Obama cleaning up their messes, dupe. LOL

Reagan left us a high but manageable debt. Dubya aand Obama most certainly created a perpetual debt problem. Especially Obama.

Reagan's debt was FAR from manageable. Claiming anything else is pure partisanship and deludedly bad math.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

And how would they feel about the standing military and being the worlds police?

How about the Highway superfund used to blackmail the States?

How do you think they'd feel when they found out growing hemp was a federal crime and that the flowers of that marvlous plant was deemed to be of no medicinal value by the same federal government?

I seriously doubt they would focus on any one president but rather how the country evolved to being the nanny super state that we are now.

They'd almost certainly be pissed off at the USA since WWI and would probably be in the streets forging alliances with the OWS and Tea Party folks to take back the nation. They'd have certainly started looking for a way to kick both parties to the curb.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

ObamaCare destroys it...because The Government is in charge of what will be covered, and what won't.

TRY again 'MODERATOR'

No, "Obamacare" doesn't give "The Government" control over what will be covered and what won't - your health insurance company will make those decisions.

Just like now.

It's very amusing that you think calling me "MODERATOR" is some sort of insult.

Oh yes it does, in Medicare and Medicaid.

The Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB, is a fifteen-member United States Government agency created in 2010 by sections 3403 and 10320 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

Beginning in 2013, the Chief Actuary of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services will determine in particular years the projected per capita growth rate for Medicare for a multi-year period ending in the second year thereafter (the "implementation year"). If the projection exceeds a target growth rate, IPAB must develop a proposal to reduce Medicare spending in the implementation year by a specified amount

It also provides grants to companies, for employees , they must eat healthy foods provided in their cafeterias, bringing lunches is prohibited and they must exercise in the work place as well as at home.

I hate to break this to you, but if you're on Medicare or Medicaid, "The Government" is already in control of what it does or does not cover. If you're on Medicare or Medicaid, "The Government" is your insurance provider.

If you're not on Medicare or Medicaid, "The Government" has no control over your coverage.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

A couple of hours is not exactly studying history.

Yes__ That was clearly the first time that I ever studied the Founding Fathers genius. Do I have to spell it out for you?

These two hours obviously made you an expert.

Well I'm not going to spell it out for you troll.

 

[Listening]

I just finished a couple hours of studying the Founding Fathers. They gave ominous warnings against people like Obama and I'm convinced that they would resolutely defy Obama were they alive today.

"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt." -- Thomas Jefferson

Can we get this one back on track.

I found the conversation enlightening until the Obamacare nerve was touched.

The founders are going to hand that back to him pretty soon, via the SCOTUS, ....in ashes.

What else would they find repugnant ?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Yes__ That was clearly the first time that I ever studied the Founding Fathers genius. Do I have to spell it out for you?

These two hours obviously made you an expert.

Well I'm not going to spell it out for you troll.

TGG, you do not understand the FF, not even a little bit.

You are making yourself look ridiculous.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I just finished a couple hours of studying the Founding Fathers. They gave ominous warnings against people like Obama and I'm convinced that they would resolutely defy Obama were they alive today.

"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt." -- Thomas Jefferson

Can we get this one back on track.

I found the conversation enlightening until the Obamacare nerve was touched.

The founders are going to hand that back to him pretty soon, via the SCOTUS, ....in ashes.

What else would they find repugnant ?

They would have trouble with minorities, men without property, and women voting in general.

The fact that women can control their own property and estates would bug them.

Some like Hamilton, Jay, and others would have no trouble with the Federal Reserve. Jefferson would have a freaking conniption fit.

The one thing we need to make clear is that they were classical liberals, men of the Enlightenment. They would disavow modern libertarianism along with communism.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

But moving forward, give me some evidence to suggest that the Founding Fathers would be for Obama.

You made the claim that they are against obama, prove your argument. I am certain based on your "extensive" research it should be easy enough for you to provide examples of them being "against obama." LOL

However, my guess is the best you have are out of context quotes that you try to desperately apply to obama even though they don't. Then you will declare yourself the "winner" and a genius even though you failed to substantiate your own argument. LOL

I'll give you some quotes that are rather self explanatory and generally in stark contrast to Obama (where applicable).

"A feeble executive implies a feeble execution of the government. A feeble execution is but another phrase for a bad execution; and a government ill executed, whatever may be its theory, must be, in practice, a bad government." - Alexander Hamilton

"A fondness for power is implanted, in most men, and it is natural to abuse it, when acquired." - Alexander Hamilton

"Here sir, the people govern." - Alexander Hamilton

"A constitution founded on these principles introduces knowledge among the people, and inspires them with a conscious dignity becoming freemen; a general emulation takes place, which causes good humor, sociability, good manners, and good morals to be general. That elevation of sentiment inspired by such a government, makes the common people brave and enterprising. That ambition which is inspired by it makes them sober, industrious, and frugal." - John Adams

"It already appears, that there must be in every society of men superiors and inferiors, because God has laid in the constitution and course of nature the foundations of the distinction." - John Adams

"It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship." - John Adams

"Liberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it, derived from our Maker. But if we had not, our fathers have earned and bought it for us, at the expense of their ease, their estates, their pleasure, and their blood." - John Adams

"National defense is one of the cardinal duties of a statesman." - John Adams

"Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."

"They define a republic to be a government of laws, and not of men." - John Adams

"We should be unfaithful to ourselves if we should ever lose sight of the danger to our liberties if anything partial or extraneous should infect the purity of our free, fair, virtuous, and independent elections." - John Adams

"A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." - Thomas Jefferson (Cough: Obamacare)

"A rigid economy of the public contributions and absolute interdiction of all useless expenses will go far towards keeping the government honest and unoppressive." - Thomas Jefferson

"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." - Thomas Jefferson

"An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens....There has never been a moment of my life in which I should have relinquished for it the enjoyments of my family, my farm, my friends & books." - Thomas Jefferson

"Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day." - Thomas Jefferson

"Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever persuasion, religious or political." - Thomas Jefferson

"For I agree with you that there is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents." - Thomas Jefferson

"I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground that 'all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states or to the people.' To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power, not longer susceptible of any definition." - Thomas Jefferson

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Thomas Jefferson

"I think all the world would gain by setting commerce at perfect liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." - Thomas Jefferson

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

"It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions." - Thomas Jefferson

"It is not honorable to take mere legal advantage, when it happens to be contrary to justice." - Thomas Jefferson

"It must be observed that our revenues are raised almost wholly on imported goods." - Thomas Jefferson

"Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure." - Thomas Jefferson

"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms [within his own lands]." - Thomas Jefferson

"Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction." - Thomas Jefferson

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves in all cases to which they think themselves competent, or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press." - Thomas Jefferson

"The greatest good we can do our country is to heal its party divisions and make them one people." - Thomas Jefferson

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all citizens." - Thomas Jefferson

"The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." - Thomas Jefferson

"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt." - Thomas Jefferson

"Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread." - Thomas Jefferson

"Whatever enables us to go to war, secures our peace." - Thomas Jefferson

"Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe." - Thomas Jefferson

"[W]hen all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another." - Thomas Jefferson

"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." - Benjamin Franklin

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

"Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness." - George Washington

"Citizens by birth or choice of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations." - George Washington

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." - George Washington

"Jealousy, and local policy mix too much in all our public councils for the good government of the Union. In a words, the confederation appears to me to be little more than a shadow without the substance" - George Washington

"Our cause is noble; it is the cause of mankind!" - George Washington

"Speak seldom, but to important subjects, except such as particularly relate to your constituents, and, in the former case, make yourself perfectly master of the subject." - George Washington

"The Constitution which at any time exists, 'till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole People is sacredly obligatory upon all." - George Washington

"The executive branch of this government never has, nor will suffer, while I preside, any improper conduct of its officers to escape with impunity." - George Washington

"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." - George Washington

"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." - James Madison

"How could a readiness for war in time of peace be safely prohibited, unless we could prohibit, in like manner, the preparations and establishments of every hostile nation?" - James Madison

"It is a principle incorporated into the settled policy of America, that as peace is better than war, war is better than tribute." - James Madison

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society." - James Madison

"Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is the danger of oppression." - James Madison

"A little matter will move a party, but it must be something great that moves a nation." - Thomas Paine

"A nation under a well regulated government, should permit none to remain uninstructed. It is monarchical and aristocratical government only that requires ignorance for its support." - Thomas Paine

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." - Thomas Paine

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer." - Thomas Paine

"The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind." - Thomas Paine

"We have it in our power to begin the world over again." - Thomas Paine

"When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." - Thomas Paine

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Great Gatsby is given a great thanks for posting the following for commentary.

Obama has been a strong foreign policy president and the GOP Congress has hamstrung him with obstructionism. "A feeble executive implies a feeble execution of the government. A feeble execution is but another phrase for a bad execution; and a government ill executed, whatever may be its theory, must be, in practice, a bad government." - Alexander Hamilton

George W. Bush fits this bill. "A fondness for power is implanted, in most men, and it is natural to abuse it, when acquired." - Alexander Hamilton

We the People deserve the government we elect. "Here sir, the people govern." - Alexander Hamilton

The common Democrat and common Republican fail these tests. The modern Independent does better in comparison with the former. "A constitution founded on these principles introduces knowledge among the people, and inspires them with a conscious dignity becoming freemen; a general emulation takes place, which causes good humor, sociability, good manners, and good morals to be general. That elevation of sentiment inspired by such a government, makes the common people brave and enterprising. That ambition which is inspired by it makes them sober, industrious, and frugal." - John Adams

The democratization of the polity has done away with John's observations, a long time ago. "It already appears, that there must be in every society of men superiors and inferiors, because God has laid in the constitution and course of nature the foundations of the distinction." - John Adams

Thus we have the separation of Church and State so that the religious and the irreligious cannot use the government to interfere with religious freedom. "It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship." - John Adams

Yup. "Liberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it, derived from our Maker. But if we had not, our fathers have earned and bought it for us, at the expense of their ease, their estates, their pleasure, and their blood." - John Adams

Bush sucked and Obama has done well. Romney will do well in this as President. "National defense is one of the cardinal duties of a statesman." - John Adams

Not yet anyway. "Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."

Somebody should have told the bushies. "They define a republic to be a government of laws, and not of men." - John Adams

The GOP should stop disenfranchising citizens' free right to vote. "We should be unfaithful to ourselves if we should ever lose sight of the danger to our liberties if anything partial or extraneous should infect the purity of our free, fair, virtuous, and independent elections." - John Adams

Take it up with the majority of the Senate and the House that passed it. The American people are bound by the law unless they can electorally and constitutionally repeal it. "A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." - Thomas Jefferson (Cough: Obamacare)

Both parties have problems with this. "A rigid economy of the public contributions and absolute interdiction of all useless expenses will go far towards keeping the government honest and unoppressive." - Thomas Jefferson

Minority rights always supersedes the majority will. "All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson was a liar. He loved power. "An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens....There has never been a moment of my life in which I should have relinquished for it the enjoyments of my family, my farm, my friends & books." - Thomas Jefferson

Thus the democratization and education of the whole American people. "Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day." - Thomas Jefferson

Duh. "Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever persuasion, religious or political." - Thomas Jefferson

Which is regulated by the law."For I agree with you that there is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents." - Thomas Jefferson

That is what he believed, yet owned slaves, including both the mother and their children."I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground that 'all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states or to the people.' To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power, not longer susceptible of any definition." - Thomas Jefferson

Yup."I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Thomas Jefferson

Planter's attitude, meaning no tariffs."I think all the world would gain by setting commerce at perfect liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

Duh."I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." - Thomas Jefferson

Ephemeral."I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

OWS and the Tea Party and Representative West."It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions." - Thomas Jefferson

Tell that to The Rabbi."It is not honorable to take mere legal advantage, when it happens to be contrary to justice." - Thomas Jefferson

Then, Tom, why bitch about the tariff?"It must be observed that our revenues are raised almost wholly on imported goods." - Thomas Jefferson

Strict constructionism, of course."Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure." - Thomas Jefferson

No, bigreb,you don't get a missile frigate for your tub."No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms [within his own lands]." - Thomas Jefferson

Time and nature changes, Tom: tuff."Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction." - Thomas Jefferson

And so Obamacare was passed."The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves in all cases to which they think themselves competent, or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press." - Thomas Jefferson

Rather authoritarian, even fascist."The greatest good we can do our country is to heal its party divisions and make them one people." - Thomas Jefferson

Agreed."The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all citizens." - Thomas Jefferson

Everyone agrees but no one votes with you."The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." - Thomas Jefferson

See above."We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt." - Thomas Jefferson

Yet to be proven."Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread." - Thomas Jefferson

Tom the warmonger, who cut the Army and Navy drastically, and Great Britain kicked our ass around for 12 years."Whatever enables us to go to war, secures our peace." - Thomas Jefferson

Tom is for the fairness doctrine."Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe." - Thomas Jefferson

"Tom as poster boy for states' rights.[W]hen all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another." - Thomas Jefferson

Yea, Big Ben."Where liberty dwells, there is my country." - Benjamin Franklin

Every one who supports the Patriot Act should be stripped of citizenship."They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Writes the man who offered love to the beautiful Mrs. Fairfax."Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness." - George Washington

National rights before states rights."Citizens by birth or choice of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations." - George Washington

Be on guard against the Tea Party wacks."Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." - George Washington

Weak national government threatens the well being of the Nation."Jealousy, and local policy mix too much in all our public councils for the good government of the Union. In a words, the confederation appears to me to be little more than a shadow without the substance" - George Washington

Yup."Our cause is noble; it is the cause of mankind!" - George Washington

TGG, do take this counsel to heart, very personally."Speak seldom, but to important subjects, except such as particularly relate to your constituents, and, in the former case, make yourself perfectly master of the subject." - George Washington

Obamacare is the law of the land until SCOTUS or the Congress overturns it."The Constitution which at any time exists, 'till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole People is sacredly obligatory upon all." - George Washington

Good for you."The executive branch of this government never has, nor will suffer, while I preside, any improper conduct of its officers to escape with impunity." - George Washington

Yup."The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." - George Washington

2001-2011."Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." - James Madison

Thoughtful."How could a readiness for war in time of peace be safely prohibited, unless we could prohibit, in like manner, the preparations and establishments of every hostile nation?" - James Madison

Polemics."It is a principle incorporated into the settled policy of America, that as peace is better than war, war is better than tribute." - James Madison

This is why JM is Mr. Separation of Church and State."It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society." - James Madison

Only the civic virtue of We the People can prevent oppression."Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is the danger of oppression." - James Madison

Quite good."A little matter will move a party, but it must be something great that moves a nation." - Thomas Paine

Keep those student loans coming."A nation under a well regulated government, should permit none to remain uninstructed. It is monarchical and aristocratical government only that requires ignorance for its support." - Thomas Paine

Yup."If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." - Thomas Paine

Keep the far left and the far right out of power."Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer." - Thomas Paine

Yup."The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind." - Thomas Paine

Ephemeral."We have it in our power to begin the world over again." - Thomas Paine

So true."When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." - Thomas Paine

 

[initforme]

Why people have so much respect for the founding fathers I cant fathom. While they were decent men, I surely dont have any more respect for them than anyone else. They werent perfect nor role models in any way shape or form.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Why people have so much respect for the founding fathers I cant fathom. While they were decent men, I surely dont have any more respect for them than anyone else. They werent perfect nor role models in any way shape or form.

Read the history. They were men of bravery, virtue, integrity, wisdom, foresight, uprightness, perseverance, knowledge, etc. I don't know what you think a role model is or how a man becomes great; but I know that you cannot point me to a better and more influential group of souls.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Why people have so much respect for the founding fathers I cant fathom. While they were decent men, I surely dont have any more respect for them than anyone else. They werent perfect nor role models in any way shape or form.

Read the history. They were men of bravery, virtue, integrity, wisdom, foresight, uprightness, perseverance, knowledge, etc. I don't know what you think a role model is or how a man becomes great; but I know that you cannot point me to a better and more influential group of souls.

As slave owners or business men, they are not role models for today.

As classical liberals in the Age of Enlightenment, we can learn much but must be on guard we do not take on their weaknesses.