Global Warming Actually Still Accelerating - no "lull"

[Saigon]

Here is a 2011 video on NZ tidal energy for anyone not suffering from Westwall Syndrome (notable for foaming-at-the-mouth, psychotic rage and a profound inability to be be honest about anything, ever.)

Craig Stevens on Cook Strait tidal energy on Vimeo

In April 2008, a resource consent was granted to Neptune Power for the installation of a $10 million experimental underwater tidal stream turbine capable of producing one megawatt. The turbine has been designed in Britain, and will be built in New Zealand. It will be 14 metres in diameter and constructed of carbon fibre. It will be placed in eighty metres of water, 4.5 kilometres due south of Sinclair Head, in waters known as the “Karori rip”. Power from the turbine will be brought ashore at Vector's Island Bay substation. The turbine is a pilot, and will be sited in slower tides for testing. Neptune hopes to generate power from the unit by 2010. The company claims there is enough tidal movement in Cook Strait to generate 12 GW of power, more than one-and-a-half times New Zealand's current requirements.[14][15][16][17] In practice, only some of this energy could be harnessed.[18] As of December 2012 the Neptune Power website is a placeholder with no further announcements.

On the other side of the strait, Energy Pacifica has applied for resource consent to install up to 10 marine turbines, each able to produce up to 1.2 MW, near the Cook Strait entrance to Tory Channel. They claim Tory Channel is an optimal site with a tidal current speed of 3.6 metres a second and the best combination of bathymetry and accessibility to the electricity network.[17]

The power generated by tidal marine turbines varies as the cube of the tidal speed. Because the tidal speed doubles, eight times more tidal power is produced during spring tides than at neaps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cook_Strait#Tidal_power

 

[orogenicman]

Moving towards WHAT alternate sources??

RARE and EXPENSIVE is expected result by economic theory when you PUSH primarily "conservation".. Who's getting rich from conservation? GE paid no taxes because they got more "green credits" than they could use selling dishwashers and washing machines that would have been built and sold WITHOUT the credits.

Not Schitzoid?? How many 1Watt chargers do I have to pull out of the wall to get 30KWhrs for my Leaf to go 75 miles??

ETHANOL? Who's getting rich on ethanol? And what (predictable) perturbations to the food supply did Al Gore miss on that one?

Gasoline is priced correctly.. The government does not need more money to spend on unrelated drone weapons and horseshit Elon Musk subsidies. Know why Tesla stock is hot?
Over 50% of their "profits" came from govt kick-backs last quarter.

The reality is --- you lefty greens have squandered the opportunities and managed to botch any attempt to get REAL enviro remediation with the money you've ALREADY been given.. You got NOTHING to propose except MORE conservation and dead-end plans like shifting transport energy to the electrical grid..

Natural gas, for one. It certainly is not rare nor expensive. And yes, it is, at best, a stop-gap measure. No one is saying that it is not. But it is the longest term stop-gap solution we have. And it is far more energy efficient and less polluting that coal or fuel oil at generating electrical power. Same with regard to transportation. Yes, there is an infrastructure issue there. But then, the infrastructure we have today for gasoline wasn't built over night either. You people seem to expect solutions over night, or else none at all - meaning that you'd prefer to keep the status quo. But that's not a solution, either, nor is it an option. There are no overnight solutions. It took us 150 years to get into the situation we find ourselves in today. It is foolish to believe that we can get out of it overnight.

Still waiting for your definition of "orphan hole" your first attempt was an abject failure. C'mon mr. geologist.

I posted it yesterday. Are you blind? An orphan hole is an abandoned well. Also, some call abandoned strip mines orphan holes. But abandoned wells are primarily what you are referring to. And by the way, since you obviously missed out on that conversation, the EPA and the states have spent millions of dollars plugging them (when it should have been the responsibility of those who drilled them in the first place). Now, do you have any comment on my post, above? Or are you just glad to see me?

 

[freedombecki]

Flac-

I think you've been getting poor and/or outdated information. Tidal is up and running in a half-dozen places around the world, and it simply isn't a major environmental problem.

There is an issue with the massive turbine blades killing fish, and experts tell me that is something that they will be able to fix when they have enough information. It's just about positioning the blades at the right depth, angle etc.

This is the smaller of two in NZ, the massive Cook St program is only at the pilot stage...

Kaipara Tidal Power Station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see anyone ignoring the environmental problems, but we need to look at them objectively. You act as if Hydro or Coal had 0 impact on the environmental and wind and tidal did. Basically, any form of electricity generation will cause some problems, and we need to balance those against the value of the energy delivered.

here are several types of NEW nuclear plant designs that DO NOT REQUIRE water for cooling..

That could be...but the latest plant being constructed here at Pori is still water cooled.

There is an issue with the massive turbine blades killing fish, and experts tell me that is something that they will be able to fix when they have enough information. It's just about positioning the blades at the right depth, angle etc.

You didn't know? They've already depleted food sources in the areas they "serve" and brought a number of important mammals to the "endangered" list who may never recover in European waters. We've had this conversation a few weeks back, and it will take them a decade to figure out how to stop eliminating biodiversity at which time there will be none since there is now little already.

 

[Saigon]

Freedom -

Try and post things with a little common sense.

 

[PMZ]

Has anyone else noticed progress here? The deniers have given up denying AGW and are now denying sustainable energy.

Denying AGW requires the denial of science while sustainable energy denial denies engineering, venture capitalism, and mankind's demonstrated ability to progress.

Bottom line? I can't imagine how conservatives benefit mankind. They are a 100 percent liability. Easiest path for them but worse than useless for us.

 

[PMZ]

No -- new gen nuclear does not need water (several designs like that)

Nuclear plants currently being built do need water...which isn't a problem in any country with rivers.

I agree that in the middle of the Sahara it might be one issue, but for the US, China, Australia etc, Solar Thermal would have no more water problems than Nuclear.

Before you go on ranting about Africa, try and remember that I work there! My thoughts on Solar Thermal are largely based on my experiences in Africa.

btw.Solar Thermal can also supply (some) energy at night, but the major needs in most hot countries are in the day and early evening, because of the use of air con, fans etc.

I don't think anyone ignores the issues with wind (birdstrike) or tidal (fishstrike), but particularly in the case of tidal these seem to be more teething problems than game changers.

Tidal has the ability to change the global electricity market - it is that good. Why anyone would dismiss it before it has had the chance to be properly tried on a massive scale I have no idea.

How can you ignore a massive pile of MOLTEN FERTILIZER in the middle of a pristine desert using water?

Um...what?

Why would I dismiss tidal before it gets built? Because the designs I've seen are COMPLETE enviro nightmares. THere's a proposed project off Scotland(?) where the plan is to section off a 4mile squared section of sensitive marine bay. ACTUALLY FUNKING Wall it off like a dam with a sluice gap. And THAT is considered a cutting edge efficient Tidal Design. That's worse than mountain top mining for carp sake..

If you insist on IGNORING environmental issues and problems -- you realize the credibility for your cause goes to crap really quickly. Especially with the high bars you ecofrauds set for other ideas..

The "molten pile of fertilizer" reference to solar thermal is -- that is what is USED FOR THE FREAKING STORAGE... To stretch the generation out a few hours past daylight.

And you're not listening real well.. There are several types of NEW nuclear plant designs that DO NOT REQUIRE water for cooling.. In fact, the exciting developments are small scale reactors that can be buried and forgotten.. Tenn is getting 2 of these in the next couple years in conjunction with the Oak Ridge Nat Lab..

Here's a new (sort of) possibility for nuclear that solves even more problems.

TerraPower, Bill Gates and the Reactor - WSJ.com

Ain't progress grand?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Meaningless numbers. Every KWatt of wind is as a back-up to a primary generator of some other energy. Idling those other plants wastes fuel when the wind blows. You are paying for TWO power plants when you buy wind.. You can't power a Dairy Queen in Topeka on wind alone.

It's "cost" is a fudge number based on suspension of reality...

I largely agree about wind. I think its of limited use - except in countries with exceptional wind resources, such as Denmark.

Todd -

I knew you wouldn't be able to admit it. You're not that kind of poster.

You're right, I won't admit your useless wind number is in any way useful.
I'm not that kind of poster.

 

[mamooth]

Here's a new (sort of) possibility for nuclear that solves even more problems.

It would still need water, though. Until someone figures out a way to turn raw heat into electricity on a massive scale without using a steam turbine, it's going to need water. Nuke plants may replace the water in the primary coolant with something else, but the secondary loop still needs water to make steam, and to cool the turbine condensors. Not rivers or oceans of it, but you do need a reliable supply.

 

[freedombecki]

Freedom -

Try and post things with a little common sense.

Sure.

Mankind should stop being a Neanderthal in his quest to pursue modern energy sources that eliminate threatened and endangered species on this planet. Someday we'll be able to communicate with the animals and learn what they know. You can't learn something from a being that was extincted by man's stupidity toward beasts.

The mentality "It doesn't matter to me if those seals are here or gone because they have funnier-looking fur than other seals I've seen," is bad. We should not destroy more species, and I do mean decimate where tidal water turbines are concerned.

/sardonic attitude

 

[westwall]

Natural gas, for one. It certainly is not rare nor expensive. And yes, it is, at best, a stop-gap measure. No one is saying that it is not. But it is the longest term stop-gap solution we have. And it is far more energy efficient and less polluting that coal or fuel oil at generating electrical power. Same with regard to transportation. Yes, there is an infrastructure issue there. But then, the infrastructure we have today for gasoline wasn't built over night either. You people seem to expect solutions over night, or else none at all - meaning that you'd prefer to keep the status quo. But that's not a solution, either, nor is it an option. There are no overnight solutions. It took us 150 years to get into the situation we find ourselves in today. It is foolish to believe that we can get out of it overnight.

Still waiting for your definition of "orphan hole" your first attempt was an abject failure. C'mon mr. geologist.

I posted it yesterday. Are you blind? An orphan hole is an abandoned well. Also, some call abandoned strip mines orphan holes. But abandoned wells are primarily what you are referring to. And by the way, since you obviously missed out on that conversation, the EPA and the states have spent millions of dollars plugging them (when it should have been the responsibility of those who drilled them in the first place). Now, do you have any comment on my post, above? Or are you just glad to see me?

Ahhh, yes finally you got it on the second try. Orphan Holes have always been the appellation given to abandoned strip mines. Those have been a blight on the planet for well over a century and there is no one around to fix them. This is one place where government can do a good job.

 

[westwall]

Westwall -

Have you EVER got ANYTHING right on this board?!

I have never come across any poster on any forum so desperate to score points - and so prepared to sacrafice facts to do so. Really...you just post any drivel at all, won't you?

A Maori curse does not mean the project has stopped. As someone who claimed to have lived in NZ might be expected to know, negotiations with tangata whenua always take place when a makutu is in place. The curse has no legal standing. The project is continuing as of May 2013.

You might also want to learn the difference between the Kaipara Harbour and the Cook Strait. They are two entirely unrelated projects, a thousand miles apart.

Far more than you ever will junior. To your point..... Here is YOUR link....

"The Kaipara tidal power station is a proposed tidal power project to be located in the Kaipara Harbour. The project is being developed by Crest Energy, with an ultimate size of 200MW at a cost of $700 million.[1]

Crest plans to place the turbines at least 30 metres deep along a ten kilometre stretch of the main channel Historical charts show this stretch of the channel has changed little over 150 years. The output of the turbines will cycle twice daily with the predictable rise and fall of the tide. Each turbine will have a maximum output of 1.2 MW, and is expected to generate 0.75 MW averaged over time.[1]"


Kaipara Tidal Power Station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here are MY links....

Kaipara Tidal Power Station (Planned)

The Kaipara Tidal Power Station is a proposed tidal power project to be located in Kaipara Harbour. Crest Energy, has resource consent for up to 200 turbines with an ultimate capacity of 200 MW by 2023.

Crest plans to place the turbines at least 30 metres deep along a ten kilometre stretch of the main channel.The output of the turbines will cycle twice daily with the rise and fall of the tide. Each turbine will have a maximum output of 1.2 MW, and is expected to generate 0.75 MW averaged over time.

Crest has not yet made a decision on the initial supplier or suppliers of turbines for the project.

In August 2011, Todd Energy acquired the majority shareholding in Crest Energy.


Kaipara Tidal Power Station - Marine - POWER PLANTS


Snapper may be off the fish n'chips menu at local takeaway shops if Crest Energy's plan to build a tidal power station in the Kaipara Harbour goes ahead, according to Maori MP Hone Harawira.


Power station will affect snapper - MP | Stuff.co.nz


Notice how they're about the SAME place? I know you must absolutely hate it when I destroy your stupid posts but accusing me of being dumb or not knowing what I'm talking about when it is so clearly YOU who is the ignorant jackass does you no favors.

I suggest you remove your head from your ass and actually do some research that doesn't involve wiki.

Twit....

 

[westwall]

Here is a 2011 video on NZ tidal energy for anyone not suffering from Westwall Syndrome (notable for foaming-at-the-mouth, psychotic rage and a profound inability to be be honest about anything, ever.)

Craig Stevens on Cook Strait tidal energy on Vimeo

In April 2008, a resource consent was granted to Neptune Power for the installation of a $10 million experimental underwater tidal stream turbine capable of producing one megawatt. The turbine has been designed in Britain, and will be built in New Zealand. It will be 14 metres in diameter and constructed of carbon fibre. It will be placed in eighty metres of water, 4.5 kilometres due south of Sinclair Head, in waters known as the “Karori rip”. Power from the turbine will be brought ashore at Vector's Island Bay substation. The turbine is a pilot, and will be sited in slower tides for testing. Neptune hopes to generate power from the unit by 2010. The company claims there is enough tidal movement in Cook Strait to generate 12 GW of power, more than one-and-a-half times New Zealand's current requirements.[14][15][16][17] In practice, only some of this energy could be harnessed.[18] As of December 2012 the Neptune Power website is a placeholder with no further announcements.

On the other side of the strait, Energy Pacifica has applied for resource consent to install up to 10 marine turbines, each able to produce up to 1.2 MW, near the Cook Strait entrance to Tory Channel. They claim Tory Channel is an optimal site with a tidal current speed of 3.6 metres a second and the best combination of bathymetry and accessibility to the electricity network.[17]

The power generated by tidal marine turbines varies as the cube of the tidal speed. Because the tidal speed doubles, eight times more tidal power is produced during spring tides than at neaps.

Cook Strait - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And sadly for you I watched the video and surprise, surprise (well, actually no) it is still pending. The wonderful turbine they show in the video is actually in IRELAND and is one of TWO contenders for the type of turbine that they envision using.

Once again reality bites you in the ass. For a supposed journalist you sure aren't very knowledgeable about your subject matter....

 

[orogenicman]

Still waiting for your definition of "orphan hole" your first attempt was an abject failure. C'mon mr. geologist.

I posted it yesterday. Are you blind? An orphan hole is an abandoned well. Also, some call abandoned strip mines orphan holes. But abandoned wells are primarily what you are referring to. And by the way, since you obviously missed out on that conversation, the EPA and the states have spent millions of dollars plugging them (when it should have been the responsibility of those who drilled them in the first place). Now, do you have any comment on my post, above? Or are you just glad to see me?

Ahhh, yes finally you got it on the second try. Orphan Holes have always been the appellation given to abandoned strip mines. Those have been a blight on the planet for well over a century and there is no one around to fix them. This is one place where government can do a good job.

Either answer is correct. But why are you whining about strip mines and simultaneously whining about alternative energy? And why are you insisting that the government provide corporate welfare to irresponsible mine operators when the law is very clear with regard to who is responsible for reclaiming those lands?

 

[flacaltenn]

Meaningless numbers. Every KWatt of wind is as a back-up to a primary generator of some other energy. Idling those other plants wastes fuel when the wind blows. You are paying for TWO power plants when you buy wind.. You can't power a Dairy Queen in Topeka on wind alone.

It's "cost" is a fudge number based on suspension of reality...

I largely agree about wind. I think its of limited use - except in countries with exceptional wind resources, such as Denmark.

Todd -

I knew you wouldn't be able to admit it. You're not that kind of poster.

Not EVEN in Denmark.. NOT EVEN OFF-shore.. Middlegrunden is an Off-shore danish wind park.. You can follow each turbine daily at --- http://www.middelgrund.com/

What are their 2MWatt turbines producing right now??? \

T11 4.4 956 139.7
T12 4.5 916 134.0
T13 4.7 1,176 191.4
T14 4.4 1,460 156.5
T15 4.6 748 143.6
T16 4.7 1,256 161.5
T17 5.0 2,752 179.0
T18 4.9 988 154.3
T19 5.0 3,468 200.4
T20 4.3 4 61.3

Last number is the POWER output in KWatts.. T18 is producing 0.154Mwatt for a 2.000Mwatt investment..

THIS is how Danish off-shore wind produces energy..

 

[flacaltenn]

THere's a proposed project off Scotland(?) where the plan is to section off a 4mile squared section of sensitive marine bay. ACTUALLY FUNKING Wall it off like a dam with a sluice gap. And THAT is considered a cutting edge efficient Tidal Design. That's worse than mountain top mining for carp sake..

I think you need to check your sources.

Read the quote in my footer AGAIN.. Why is it that you don't believe what people tell you?

Is it because you lie a lot --- or are woefully misinformed on the topics you choose to champion??

THey are gonna DAM OFF a large portion of coastal habitat.. THAT'S what a reliable Tidal power project looks like..

IT'S a fu-king ENVIRONMENTAL SCAR on the landscape..

Just like mountain-top mining... Only MORE species die....

 

[flacaltenn]

Westwall -

Have you EVER got ANYTHING right on this board?!

I have never come across any poster on any forum so desperate to score points - and so prepared to sacrafice facts to do so. Really...you just post any drivel at all, won't you?

A Maori curse does not mean the project has stopped. As someone who claimed to have lived in NZ might be expected to know, negotiations with tangata whenua always take place when a makutu is in place. The curse has no legal standing. The project is continuing as of May 2013.

You might also want to learn the difference between the Kaipara Harbour and the Cook Strait. They are two entirely unrelated projects, a thousand miles apart.

The Maori are CORRECT to curse this project.. ANYONE in touch with the environment would.. You Eco-Frauds are making excuses like blood-thirsty savages for the carnage that you are willing accept to see your flaccid wet dreams get built.

The problem isn't just killing a few snapper.. Plenty of snapper in New Zealand. The problem is HABITAT DESTRUCTION. Because those stations have the potential to completely WIPE OUT local populations of certain fish and crustaceans.. And KEEP them wiped out.. You should be ashamed -- but you're too arrogant.. As evidenced in your 1st sentence reply to WestWall..

Take responsibility for your mistakes occasionally.. Builds character..

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Meaningless numbers. Every KWatt of wind is as a back-up to a primary generator of some other energy. Idling those other plants wastes fuel when the wind blows. You are paying for TWO power plants when you buy wind.. You can't power a Dairy Queen in Topeka on wind alone.

It's "cost" is a fudge number based on suspension of reality...

I largely agree about wind. I think its of limited use - except in countries with exceptional wind resources, such as Denmark.

Todd -

I knew you wouldn't be able to admit it. You're not that kind of poster.

Not EVEN in Denmark.. NOT EVEN OFF-shore.. Middlegrunden is an Off-shore danish wind park.. You can follow each turbine daily at --- http://www.middelgrund.com/

What are their 2MWatt turbines producing right now??? \

T11 4.4 956 139.7
T12 4.5 916 134.0
T13 4.7 1,176 191.4
T14 4.4 1,460 156.5
T15 4.6 748 143.6
T16 4.7 1,256 161.5
T17 5.0 2,752 179.0
T18 4.9 988 154.3
T19 5.0 3,468 200.4
T20 4.3 4 61.3

Last number is the POWER output in KWatts.. T18 is producing 0.154Mwatt for a 2.000Mwatt investment..

THIS is how Danish off-shore wind produces energy..

Less than 8%?
Does than mean it's still cheaper than coal?

 

[flacaltenn]

Has anyone else noticed progress here? The deniers have given up denying AGW and are now denying sustainable energy.

Denying AGW requires the denial of science while sustainable energy denial denies engineering, venture capitalism, and mankind's demonstrated ability to progress.

Bottom line? I can't imagine how conservatives benefit mankind. They are a 100 percent liability. Easiest path for them but worse than useless for us.

Just for the record --- THIS POST got you put back in ignore..

You're the dude who has 105 pages of bragging about how you know all this and the solutions are obvious if only Rush would overdose and FlaCalTenn had a stroke..

But all you got is more preaching? Don't feel you need to CRUSH ME with facts on renewables and the dozens of GREAT IDEAS on that HUGE list of alternatives you're packing???

Get off my screen....

 

[whitehall]

Does the radical environmental extortionist left really think the world was created less than 10,000 years ago? Do the alleged "scientists" even understand geological time? Real science seems to indicate that the oceans have been warming before Henry Ford built his first model T. The globe has been in the process of emerging from an ice age and whatever is happening to the oceans, MANKIND DIDN'T FREAKING DO IT.

 

[flacaltenn]

Here's a new (sort of) possibility for nuclear that solves even more problems.

It would still need water, though. Until someone figures out a way to turn raw heat into electricity on a massive scale without using a steam turbine, it's going to need water. Nuke plants may replace the water in the primary coolant with something else, but the secondary loop still needs water to make steam, and to cool the turbine condensors. Not rivers or oceans of it, but you do need a reliable supply.

Nope.. Neither you OR Saigon are up to speed here..

The most exciting sector of comm. nuclear reactors is the Small Modular Reactors that can be buried and forgotten for 4 years.. When the 4 yrs is up, either a twin starts up in the buried package or you truck in a new one and recycle the old one..

Up to 150MWatts in each.. Several designs exist.. Tenn is preparing to install 2 of them at Oak Ridge Nat. Lab.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/25/b...ve-hauled-by-a-truck.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

In addition to being small enough to ship, the reactors are small enough to be installed underground, offering the advantage of earthquake protection; buried structures are less vulnerable than those above the surface. They may also be easier to defend from attack.

And the ability to air-cool the reactors further distinguishes them from big nuclear plants, which, like coal and most natural gas plants that make steam to drive a turbine, require copious amounts of water to condense the steam back to water. S.M.R.’s make steam, like other reactors, but can condense it back to water using something a bit like a car radiator.


Another major player is likely to be NuScale Power, which plans a module with an output of just 45 megawatts.

Most reactors use pumps in their ordinary operation, to move the water they’ve heated into heat exchangers, which make clean steam for a turbine. NuScale makes water run to its steam generator with natural circulation, eliminating the pump that is used in conventional plants for that function. Such pumps are expensive and failure-prone.

The reactor is small enough to provide the steam needed to run an oil refinery, or even heat for keeping buildings warm. It would sit inside something like a Thermos bottle, submerged in a pool of cold water that could accommodate up to 12 reactors. In case of accident, that cooling water would last for months, the company says.

“It needs no A.C. power, no D.C. power, no additional water, indefinitely,” said Michael McGough, a spokesman.

As soon as NuScale goes public --- I'm gonna consider buying..