Goldberg: Could it be that both parties are doomed?

[Votto]

I would LOVE to see the duopoly crash and burn
Fuck em'

Well then, how would people know how to vote?

After all, we all know that the Dims are Marxists that want to seize our freedoms and guns and the Pubes want to take all money from the poor and let them die in the streets.

America would actually have to sit down and assess each candidate on their positions and past performance. It just won't work.

 

[TNHarley]

Criticising the government for controlling its borders is beyond ridiculous!

 

[TNHarley]

I would LOVE to see the duopoly crash and burn
Fuck em'

Well then, how would people know how to vote?

After all, we all know that the Dims are Marxists that want to seize our freedoms and guns and the Pubes want to take all money from the poor and let them die in the streets.

America would actually have to sit down and assess each candidate on their positions and past performance. It just won't work.

Sadly, that is a good argument.
Sucks don't it? :/

 

[Votto]

Criticising the government for controlling its borders is beyond ridiculous!

When has the government controlled it's borders?

 

[Cellblock2429]

Could it be that both parties are doomed?

I say--a pox on both their houses..


"The GOP is running as smoothly as a dry Slip 'N Slide made from sandpaper. That the party is as dysfunctional as the human resources department at the Weinstein Company stems from a host of ideological, political and structural problems that are only compounded by the fact that the president grabs the public's attention like a spider monkey running through a church with a lit stick of dynamite.
The Democratic Party, meanwhile, has gotten drunk on the spectacle. And as with many a drunk, it's grown oblivious to its own decrepitude. Like a bitter lush sitting in his own filth amidst a sea of empty bottles, moldering pizza boxes and fried chicken bones, it shouts at the TV and boasts how it could do better.
Donna Brazile, the longtime high-ranking Democratic functionary, was made interim chair of the party shortly before the 2016 election in the wake of revelations that the previous chair, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, seemed to be playing favorites in the primaries, tilting the scales toward Hillary Clinton and against Bernie Sanders. In an excerpt from her forthcoming book, "Hacks," Brazile reports that Wasserman Schultz wasn't simply partial towards Clinton. She was in fact Clinton's vassal."



"Brazile reports that the party was so hollowed out with debt that Hillary Clinton essentially scooped it up in a distress sale. Wasserman Schultz cut a deal with the Clinton campaign in which Clinton would raise millions ostensibly for the party, particularly at the state level. But those funds were sluiced back into the Clinton campaign coffers in Brooklyn, and the campaign extracted de facto control of the party's messaging and hiring. Team Clinton mocked Sanders as a paranoid dotard for claiming that the Democratic primary system was rigged against him. As it happens, his paranoia didn't go far enough.
It seems axiomatic that any party weak enough to be taken over by Hillary Clinton is not in good health."

"But the important point is that dysfunction isn't zero-sum. Right now, the best argument Republicans have is "we're not Democrats," and the best argument Democrats have is "we're not Republicans." Like two punch-drunk pugilists leaning on each other in the 12th round, if one falls, the other may well fall too.
Everywhere else in America today, disrupters -- Uber, Amazon, etc. -- are dismantling established institutions. Perhaps both political parties are the next institutions to crumble under creative destruction. Or maybe not. But if it happens, no one can say they didn't have it coming."

/—-/ that’s been going on since the country was established

 

[TNHarley]

Criticising the government for controlling its borders is beyond ridiculous!

When has the government controlled it's borders?

That was against libertarian ideology. Your post messed it up. Came before mine lol

 

[Foxfyre]

I would LOVE to see the duopoly crash and burn
Fuck em'

Do you belong to any organizations? Moose, Rotary, Red Hats, etc?

Would you like to hear people calling for your organizations to crash and burn?

There is no mandate to belong to a party. You are free to associate with whomever you please.

Leave my party organization alone.

I would LOVE to see the duopoly crash and burn!

Yes, but be careful you (the collective "you," not you personally) do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. It takes some knowing stuff to ably run this country and put up logical laws and policy. So be careful in the purge that good thoughtful minds are still there to do our bidding.

Name some for me. Because if the Noah Flood occurred tomorrow and I had an Ark, I can only name 3 or 4 people on Capitol Hill I'd take aboard. The manual for running this country AIN'T in Congress. They can barely run their Post Office/Barber Shop..

I watch CSPAN sometimes and hear the words coming straight from the horses' mouths, and I hear them interviewed on issues they have specialized in on their subcommittees, and a good number of them are more knowledgeable than you think. If you or I or TN were somehow magically transported to D.C. and plopped into the chair of a Congresscritter, we would be humbled by what we don't know.
Tearing down is okay if you've got a plan for building something better.

Which is why reform is usually preferable and has fewer unintended bad consequences than does slash and burn methods when change is necessary. You can end a government program, change a law, adopt or reverse policy with limited negative effect. But there is no way to completely abolish a society or way of life or replace a government without doing economic and social violence. And it too often includes bloodshed.

 

[Avatar4321]

Could it be that both parties are doomed?

I think it's possible that a viable third party could save them both, by causing each to return to Planet Earth or risk extinction.

Right now, both parties are an embarrassment. A cartoon.
.

Unfortunately the third parties aren't much better

 

[whitehall]

Goldberg is promoted as a conservative and it probably gets him in to some high profile D.C. cocktail parties as a token. The truth is that Goldberg is as establishment as they come. When confronted with the truth, the last refuge of a political pundit scoundrel is to denounce both parties. I thought Jonah Goldberg was a smart guy but when republicans won almost every significant political victory in the last six years and he lumps republicans up with loser violent anarchist crazy lefties who smash windows and torch cars and open fire on conservative republicans and he claims that "both parties are doomed" you gotta wonder what flavor of Kool Aid he is drinking.

 

[flacaltenn]

Because there is no conscious practical sense of states rights among the Libertarian leadership, it is extremely poorly represented in state and local levels and essentially not at all at the national level.

Actually, we've made great progress in State/Local level. It's much easier to relate LP principles on a smaller scale like a mayoral contest. Have close to a dozen in State Houses now. Don't know where you get the states right argument. We are faithful to ALL the Bill of Rights. Including the 10th. And we LOVE CHOICES. The way to get choices is not "one size fits all programs" dictated from the Swamp.

Elected Officials | Libertarian Party

Another state legislator quits GOP, joins Libertarian Party | Libertarian Party

With no wiggle room for those of us who don't want religious expression to be suppressed in the schools, who love that historic old creche on the Courthouse lawn, who don't want wide open legalization of drugs in their communities, who don't want open borders, etc. the Libertarian (capital L) doctrine is not all that appealing. And the idea that it could be dictated from Washington is somewhat disturbing.

Again, "dictating from Washington" is the ANTITHESIS of LP principle. There IS NO PARTY that would keep the scope of Fed Govt inside the bounds of the Constitution like the LP. Don't where you got that. We don't meddle in Religious dictates, would appoint a lot of INDEPENDENTS to positions of prominence. Don't want wide open drug legalization, we want to end the LEGAL ABUSES spawned by the War on Drugs and make it more of "medical issue" than a "war".

That's the point. This is the dialogue that SHOULD exist in the country. And with just a very few folks who are NOT BOUND to "party loyalty" to the GOP/DNC -- THEIR ability to speak out freely can change the entire tone in D.C.

Just look at how unmuzzled Corker and Flake are now. Free as birds to sing HONEST statements about their party politics. We need MORE politician free of "party control" to speak their opinions and ideas.

 

[flacaltenn]

Could it be that both parties are doomed?

I think it's possible that a viable third party could save them both, by causing each to return to Planet Earth or risk extinction.

Right now, both parties are an embarrassment. A cartoon.
.

You ARE gonna see a LOT of big name folks run Independent. It's gonna happen this cycle. Because if WE'RE tired of the Brand Name party tyranny --- so are the elected politicians. They are all on short leashes and muzzled. And mostly neutered. LOTS of frustration with a Congress where 4 people determine EVERYTHING important.

Good to look back on what the Founders told us and wisdom on political parties.

There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.
JOHN ADAMS, letter to Jonathan Jackson, October 2, 1789

However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.
GEORGE WASHINGTON, Farewell Address, September 19, 1796

Party leads to vicious, corrupt and unprofitable legislation, for the sole purpose of defeating party.
JAMES FENIMORE COOPER, The American Democrat

The bosses of the Democratic party and the bosses of the Republican party alike have a closer grip than ever before on the party machines in the States and in the Nation. This crooked control of both the old parties by the beneficiaries of political and business privilege renders it hopeless to expect any far-reaching and fundamental service from either.
THEODORE ROOSEVELT, The Outlook, July 27, 1912

Much indeed to be regretted, party disputes are now carried to such a length, and truth is so enveloped in mist and false representation, that it is extremely difficult to know through what channel to seek it. This difficulty to one, who is of no party, and whose sole wish is to pursue with undeviating steps a path which would lead this country to respectability, wealth, and happiness, is exceedingly to be lamented. But such, for wise purposes, it is presumed, is the turbulence of human passions in party disputes, when victory more than truth is the palm contended for.
GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter to Timothy Pickering, July 27, 1795

Saying we should keep the two-party system simply because it is working is like saying the Titanic voyage was a success because a few people survived on life rafts.
EUGENE J. MCCARTHY, Chicago Tribune, September 10, 1978

 

[flacaltenn]

TNHarley You know the CONTEXT of the pic you posted below? It was actually a pretty funny way to make a point. Almost as good as Trump mocking the disabled or Hillary barking like a dog --- Right?

 

[John Shaw]

Both parties are horrendous. Both are completely failing to understand and attract young people. Both are headed for the dustbin unless they suddenly wise up in a big way. And I think we all know that's not gonna happen.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Could it be that both parties are doomed?

I say--a pox on both their houses..


"The GOP is running as smoothly as a dry Slip 'N Slide made from sandpaper. That the party is as dysfunctional as the human resources department at the Weinstein Company stems from a host of ideological, political and structural problems that are only compounded by the fact that the president grabs the public's attention like a spider monkey running through a church with a lit stick of dynamite.
The Democratic Party, meanwhile, has gotten drunk on the spectacle. And as with many a drunk, it's grown oblivious to its own decrepitude. Like a bitter lush sitting in his own filth amidst a sea of empty bottles, moldering pizza boxes and fried chicken bones, it shouts at the TV and boasts how it could do better.
Donna Brazile, the longtime high-ranking Democratic functionary, was made interim chair of the party shortly before the 2016 election in the wake of revelations that the previous chair, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, seemed to be playing favorites in the primaries, tilting the scales toward Hillary Clinton and against Bernie Sanders. In an excerpt from her forthcoming book, "Hacks," Brazile reports that Wasserman Schultz wasn't simply partial towards Clinton. She was in fact Clinton's vassal."


"Brazile reports that the party was so hollowed out with debt that Hillary Clinton essentially scooped it up in a distress sale. Wasserman Schultz cut a deal with the Clinton campaign in which Clinton would raise millions ostensibly for the party, particularly at the state level. But those funds were sluiced back into the Clinton campaign coffers in Brooklyn, and the campaign extracted de facto control of the party's messaging and hiring. Team Clinton mocked Sanders as a paranoid dotard for claiming that the Democratic primary system was rigged against him. As it happens, his paranoia didn't go far enough.
It seems axiomatic that any party weak enough to be taken over by Hillary Clinton is not in good health."

"But the important point is that dysfunction isn't zero-sum. Right now, the best argument Republicans have is "we're not Democrats," and the best argument Democrats have is "we're not Republicans." Like two punch-drunk pugilists leaning on each other in the 12th round, if one falls, the other may well fall too.
Everywhere else in America today, disrupters -- Uber, Amazon, etc. -- are dismantling established institutions. Perhaps both political parties are the next institutions to crumble under creative destruction. Or maybe not. But if it happens, no one can say they didn't have it coming."

It would be nice, the problem is both parties make sure they'll keep the power.

 

[Mac1958]

Could it be that both parties are doomed?

I think it's possible that a viable third party could save them both, by causing each to return to Planet Earth or risk extinction.

Right now, both parties are an embarrassment. A cartoon.
.

Unfortunately the third parties aren't much better

Agreed, definitely, which is why I specified "viable" third party.

That wouldn't be easy to accomplish, given the powers entrenched in DC.
.

 

[Mac1958]

Could it be that both parties are doomed?

I think it's possible that a viable third party could save them both, by causing each to return to Planet Earth or risk extinction.

Right now, both parties are an embarrassment. A cartoon.
.

You ARE gonna see a LOT of big name folks run Independent. It's gonna happen this cycle. Because if WE'RE tired of the Brand Name party tyranny --- so are the elected politicians. They are all on short leashes and muzzled. And mostly neutered. LOTS of frustration with a Congress where 4 people determine EVERYTHING important.

Good to look back on what the Founders told us and wisdom on political parties.

There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.
JOHN ADAMS, letter to Jonathan Jackson, October 2, 1789

However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.
GEORGE WASHINGTON, Farewell Address, September 19, 1796

Party leads to vicious, corrupt and unprofitable legislation, for the sole purpose of defeating party.
JAMES FENIMORE COOPER, The American Democrat

The bosses of the Democratic party and the bosses of the Republican party alike have a closer grip than ever before on the party machines in the States and in the Nation. This crooked control of both the old parties by the beneficiaries of political and business privilege renders it hopeless to expect any far-reaching and fundamental service from either.
THEODORE ROOSEVELT, The Outlook, July 27, 1912

Much indeed to be regretted, party disputes are now carried to such a length, and truth is so enveloped in mist and false representation, that it is extremely difficult to know through what channel to seek it. This difficulty to one, who is of no party, and whose sole wish is to pursue with undeviating steps a path which would lead this country to respectability, wealth, and happiness, is exceedingly to be lamented. But such, for wise purposes, it is presumed, is the turbulence of human passions in party disputes, when victory more than truth is the palm contended for.
GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter to Timothy Pickering, July 27, 1795

Saying we should keep the two-party system simply because it is working is like saying the Titanic voyage was a success because a few people survived on life rafts.
EUGENE J. MCCARTHY, Chicago Tribune, September 10, 1978

Here's hoping.

I think it's the only way these insane parties are brought back to Earth.
.

 

[EverCurious]

It would be nice, the problem is both parties make sure they'll keep the power.

And they have the laws and rules in place to ensure they retain that power as well.

 

[OldLady]

Do you belong to any organizations? Moose, Rotary, Red Hats, etc?

Would you like to hear people calling for your organizations to crash and burn?

There is no mandate to belong to a party. You are free to associate with whomever you please.

Leave my party organization alone.

I would LOVE to see the duopoly crash and burn!

Yes, but be careful you (the collective "you," not you personally) do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. It takes some knowing stuff to ably run this country and put up logical laws and policy. So be careful in the purge that good thoughtful minds are still there to do our bidding.

Name some for me. Because if the Noah Flood occurred tomorrow and I had an Ark, I can only name 3 or 4 people on Capitol Hill I'd take aboard. The manual for running this country AIN'T in Congress. They can barely run their Post Office/Barber Shop..

I watch CSPAN sometimes and hear the words coming straight from the horses' mouths, and I hear them interviewed on issues they have specialized in on their subcommittees, and a good number of them are more knowledgeable than you think. If you or I or TN were somehow magically transported to D.C. and plopped into the chair of a Congresscritter, we would be humbled by what we don't know.
Tearing down is okay if you've got a plan for building something better.

They have no particular expertise in most ANY of the area that they legislate. That's what Aides and Staff is for. The member wears a suit and looks good in front of a camera. It's easy to sound knowledgable when you get 16 minutes total at a Committee hearing on CSPAN. And MOST of what comes out of their mouth is political distraction and what we call at USMB "off-topic". Watching a Committee investigation hearing is about 80% posing and political sparring.

I know what posing looks like, FCT, and I'm not talking about those pathetic free ads for the senators. I'm not saying EVERY Congresscritter is a well informed wonk, but now that we've elected Trump and some people seem to think it's great having a no-nothing in the driver's seat, I am a little worried that this "elect the one with no experience or background whatsoever" will become a thing.
It's not a good thing.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

I would LOVE to see the duopoly crash and burn!

Yes, but be careful you (the collective "you," not you personally) do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. It takes some knowing stuff to ably run this country and put up logical laws and policy. So be careful in the purge that good thoughtful minds are still there to do our bidding.

Name some for me. Because if the Noah Flood occurred tomorrow and I had an Ark, I can only name 3 or 4 people on Capitol Hill I'd take aboard. The manual for running this country AIN'T in Congress. They can barely run their Post Office/Barber Shop..

I watch CSPAN sometimes and hear the words coming straight from the horses' mouths, and I hear them interviewed on issues they have specialized in on their subcommittees, and a good number of them are more knowledgeable than you think. If you or I or TN were somehow magically transported to D.C. and plopped into the chair of a Congresscritter, we would be humbled by what we don't know.
Tearing down is okay if you've got a plan for building something better.

They have no particular expertise in most ANY of the area that they legislate. That's what Aides and Staff is for. The member wears a suit and looks good in front of a camera. It's easy to sound knowledgable when you get 16 minutes total at a Committee hearing on CSPAN. And MOST of what comes out of their mouth is political distraction and what we call at USMB "off-topic". Watching a Committee investigation hearing is about 80% posing and political sparring.

I know what posing looks like, FCT, and I'm not talking about those pathetic free ads for the senators. I'm not saying EVERY Congresscritter is a well informed wonk, but now that we've elected Trump and some people seem to think it's great having a no-nothing in the driver's seat, I am a little worried that this "elect the one with no experience or background whatsoever" will become a thing.
It's not a good thing.

Yes...it does seem as though some American's long-standing distrust of intellect and intellectuals is spilling over into our electoral process. I had cherished the hope that Trump would serve as an object lesson..as to what happens when someone steps out of their niche and attempts to govern, without experience or expertise. But..it appears that 36% of America just does not care..about governing--but would rather watch him fail..just to see the sheer spectacle.

Governing effectively is both a skill and an art. But politicians have no minimum requirements for the job. All they have to do is fool a majority of the voters. So that is what they devote their energy towards.

The best government is that which governs least. Who Said "The Best Government Is That Which Governs Least"? | Eugene Volokh

If the above is true..perhaps we have the best Govt. in decades..LOL!

 

[Avatar4321]

The question is what makes a third party viable

Could it be that both parties are doomed?

I think it's possible that a viable third party could save them both, by causing each to return to Planet Earth or risk extinction.

Right now, both parties are an embarrassment. A cartoon.
.

Unfortunately the third parties aren't much better

Agreed, definitely, which is why I specified "viable" third party.

That wouldn't be easy to accomplish, given the powers entrenched in DC.
.