good ideas don't require government force

[Wry Catcher]

I cannot agree with the title of the thread.

It is a good idea for companies not to dump toxic chemical into our water supply, but it took government force to stop it from happening.

It is a good idea not to rob a bank, but what outside of government force stops anyone from doing so?

I suspect the OP is talking about the various "social engineering" goals that people are so eager to assign to government. Some people seem to think that if their goals for society are "good" then anything - including government force - is acceptable in pursing them.

With that I can agree 100%. I hate that our tax code is used for social engineering.


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If you mean, "the use of centralized planning in an attempt to manage social change and regulate the future development and behavior of a society" I can agree.

In terms of the use of deception to manipulate individuals into believing tax reform recently passed will benefit all American Taxpayers equally, I agree 100%.

Exactly so. Basque attempts to have it both ways. The term is "alternative facts."

Yep.

 

[HappyJoy]

if American children are not taught the principles of freedom, America will not be free for very long!

Uh-oh, somebody broke open a stale bag of Bill O'reilly fortune cookies.

 

[jasonnfree]

Social Security is government by force, yet most Americans are comfortable with it. The same could be said for Medicare.

 

[bripat9643]

Social Security is government by force, yet most Americans are comfortable with it. The same could be said for Medicare.

Hogs are comfortable with being raised for slaughter.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I cannot agree with the title of the thread.

It is a good idea for companies not to dump toxic chemical into our water supply, but it took government force to stop it from happening.

It is a good idea not to rob a bank, but what outside of government force stops anyone from doing so?

I suspect the OP is talking about the various "social engineering" goals that people are so eager to assign to government. Some people seem to think that if their goals for society are "good" then anything - including government force - is acceptable in pursing them.

With that I can agree 100%. I hate that our tax code is used for social engineering.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

If you mean, "the use of centralized planning in an attempt to manage social change and regulate the future development and behavior of a society" I can agree.

In terms of the use of deception to manipulate individuals into believing tax reform recently passed will benefit all American Taxpayers equally, I agree 100%.

I was referring to tax breaks and credits for things like children, being married, owning a house, going to college and all the things we use taxes as a punishment (smoking, drinking etc)


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[HappyJoy]

Social Security is government by force, yet most Americans are comfortable with it. The same could be said for Medicare.

Hogs are comfortable with being raised for slaughter.

By all means, go off the grid.

 

[Wry Catcher]

the smallest minority in the world is the individual. those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.

Those who feel that individuals aren't equal, can't claim to be defenders of the people, like the US elections where people in Wyoming get a vote 3 times as powerful as those in California or Texas.

In the House each state has the number the number of representatives is corresponding with the population of that state.

So, Wyoming voters' votes are not any more powerful than votes of those in California or New York.

If number of senators were allocated the same way, there would be no need for the Senate.

And America would not be a Republic.

I think they were referring to the Electoral College. A vote in Wyoming is worth 3 times the vote of a person in Cali or Ny


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So, are you saying that Wyoming abuses the fact that they are a state with small population, i.e. minority?

The Electoral College assures that even 'minority' states have a voice.

Kind of like affirmative action.

Very much unlike AA. In practical terms the money and time spent in small states impacts elections, there is much talk that Trump's election was an accident since he lost the popular vote - nationwide - by millions, and won three states by less than 2% of the entire vote.

The same case can be made for Congressional Districts; when gerrymandering created one party dominance as money was poured into these enclaves to make a safe harbor for a parties incumbent and limit the ability of the other party to win.

We need to reform our elections so we can never again be dominated by one party, one ideology and lead by an inept, incompetent and mendacious President.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I cannot agree with the title of the thread.

It is a good idea for companies not to dump toxic chemical into our water supply, but it took government force to stop it from happening.

It is a good idea not to rob a bank, but what outside of government force stops anyone from doing so?

I suspect the OP is talking about the various "social engineering" goals that people are so eager to assign to government. Some people seem to think that if their goals for society are "good" then anything - including government force - is acceptable in pursing them.

With that I can agree 100%. I hate that our tax code is used for social engineering.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

If you mean, "the use of centralized planning in an attempt to manage social change and regulate the future development and behavior of a society" I can agree.

In terms of the use of deception to manipulate individuals into believing tax reform recently passed will benefit all American Taxpayers equally, I agree 100%.

I was referring to tax breaks and credits for things like children, being married, owning a house, going to college and all the things we use taxes as a punishment (smoking, drinking etc)


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And I support targeted tax credits, not as a social engineering experiment, but as a pragmatic use to stabilize our economy and the needs of our citizens.

As for the excise tax on tobacco and alcohol, I consider those as user fees. Excessive use of either or both will cost the health care system dramatically.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Social Security is government by force, yet most Americans are comfortable with it. The same could be said for Medicare.

I disagree. Both SS and Medicare were ideas debated and passed by our Representatives, and signed into law by the then POTUS. They are not forced on anyone, anymore than any other law promulgated by our representatives.

 

[bendog]

the smallest minority in the world is the individual. those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.

Those who feel that individuals aren't equal, can't claim to be defenders of the people, like the US elections where people in Wyoming get a vote 3 times as powerful as those in California or Texas.

In the House each state has the number the number of representatives is corresponding with the population of that state.

So, Wyoming voters' votes are not any more powerful than votes of those in California or New York.

If number of senators were allocated the same way, there would be no need for the Senate.

And America would not be a Republic.

I think they were referring to the Electoral College. A vote in Wyoming is worth 3 times the vote of a person in Cali or Ny


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

So, are you saying that Wyoming abuses the fact that they are a state with small population, i.e. minority?

The Electoral College assures that even 'minority' states have a voice.

Kind of like affirmative action.

Very much unlike AA. In practical terms the money and time spent in small states impacts elections, there is much talk that Trump's election was an accident since he lost the popular vote - nationwide - by millions, and won three states by less than 2% of the entire vote.

The same case can be made for Congressional Districts; when gerrymandering created one party dominance as money was poured into these enclaves to make a safe harbor for a parties incumbent and limit the ability of the other party to win.

We need to reform our elections so we can never again be dominated by one party, one ideology and lead by an inept, incompetent and mendacious President.

I don't think it'll ever happen. But yes all states should allocate their EV as Maine and Neb do. It would preserve the "weight" given to smaller states while also allowing every voter to have his/her will more accurately counted.

But the logical fault of the OP is its abstract nature. Basque no doubt would argue Obamacare's mandate is "socialist social engineering depriving individual choice." Yet in the "real world," there is no "real" consequence for not having private insurance if one is not already on Medicaid or medicare. Because the cost of treatment was passed on to those with insurance, even if the non-insured ended up in bankruptcy where he/she could discharge medical debt. We can't have true freedom of choice without true unfettered consequences for actions.

 

[rightwinger]

Seat belts are a good idea

The government forced us to use them

 

[whitehall]

The only time hypocrite left wingers complain about the Electoral College is when they lose an election. Bill Clinton authorized the use of freaking tanks and poison gas on a quirky religious sect in Texas when they could have captured Koresch at the 7-11. How's that for government abuse? Hussein authorized the federal police to ship 3,000 illegal weapons to Mex. drug cartels and at least one American Police Officer was killed by one of them. Hypocrite lefties only criticize "government" when they lose an election.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

the smallest minority in the world is the individual. those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.

Those who feel that individuals aren't equal, can't claim to be defenders of the people, like the US elections where people in Wyoming get a vote 3 times as powerful as those in California or Texas.

In the House each state has the number the number of representatives is corresponding with the population of that state.

So, Wyoming voters' votes are not any more powerful than votes of those in California or New York.

If number of senators were allocated the same way, there would be no need for the Senate.

And America would not be a Republic.

Well, I was referring to the Presidential election.

However, it's just as bad in the House or Senate elections.

But you don't see what happens.

Each seat is contested at FPTP. Which means that third parties can't win.

In Germany the AfD was able to go from being a new party in 2013 to being 3rd in the country in the national Bundestag by 2017. Impressive.

In the US it's impossible. In fact the third party in the US is the libertarians. They have 0 seats in Congress, they have never had the White House and never had a Supreme Court justice.

In the states they have one Senator and three lower house members out of 5,000 something. Totally pathetic.

You're looking at Wyoming the wrong way.

Imagine this.

A percentage of people are center left, a percentage center right, a percentage traditional left and right and a percentage further left and further right.

In Germany and other countries with PR they can CHOOSE who they want to vote for. In the US it's all about negative voting. They KNOW that a third party can't win the seat, because you need to get a MAJORITY in a small area.

In Germany the FDP gained ZERO seats in the FPTP part of the election, even though they gained 7% of the votes. Which means 7% of the people's wish wasn't granted. They would have had no representation.

With PR 10.7% of people voted for them. So, 3.7% of the people thought there was no point in voting for them in FPTP, so voted negatively for another party to not get in. But with PR they felt their vote ACTUALLY COUNTED.

So, with 10.7% of the vote they got 11% of the seats.


Do you understand that in the US about 50% of people aren't even being represented by the people they might wish to represent them simply because the system says "no, fuck off".

When people look at elections, like Putin's election and see how many votes he got, they think "fake election". Then look at the US election where 97.1% of the votes go to the two main political parties. It feel fake.

I get the argument for plurality representation. The U.S. is already so fucked up, that much of a drastic change to the system would be less attractive to me than a simple dissolution of the union. Let's just break it up and be done with it. Each State goes its own way.

 

[rightwinger]

The only time hypocrite left wingers complain about the Electoral College is when they lose an election. Bill Clinton authorized the use of freaking tanks and poison gas on a quirky religious sect in Texas when they could have captured Koresch at the 7-11. How's that for government abuse? Hussein authorized the federal police to ship 3,000 illegal weapons to Mex. drug cartels and at least one American Police Officer was killed by one of them. Hypocrite lefties only criticize "government" when they lose an election.

Koresh was a murdering pedophile

He deserved what he got

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

if American children are not taught the principles of freedom, America will not be free for very long!

Uh-oh, somebody broke open a stale bag of Bill O'reilly fortune cookies.

So, because it's a Bill O'Reilly-ism, he is wrong?

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

I disagree. Both SS and Medicare were ideas debated and passed by our Representatives, and signed into law by the then POTUS. They are not forced on anyone, anymore than any other law promulgated by our representatives.

What about me?

I didn't get to choose my representative at the time. I was still 40 years un-hatched. I didn't get a voice. Hell, my parents didn't get a voice.

It was forced on me before I was born.

 

[HappyJoy]

if American children are not taught the principles of freedom, America will not be free for very long!

Uh-oh, somebody broke open a stale bag of Bill O'reilly fortune cookies.

So, because it's a Bill O'Reilly-ism, he is wrong?

Not if you buy Bill O'Reilly's brand of patriotism.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Not if you buy Bill O'Reilly's brand of patriotism.

Is it a true statement that teaching children the principles of liberty will help preserve it?

 

[whitehall]

The only time hypocrite left wingers complain about the Electoral College is when they lose an election. Bill Clinton authorized the use of freaking tanks and poison gas on a quirky religious sect in Texas when they could have captured Koresch at the 7-11. How's that for government abuse? Hussein authorized the federal police to ship 3,000 illegal weapons to Mex. drug cartels and at least one American Police Officer was killed by one of them. Hypocrite lefties only criticize "government" when they lose an election.

Koresh was a murdering pedophile

He deserved what he got

"He deserved what he got"? I rest my case.

 

[DOTR]

the smallest minority in the world is the individual. those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.

I think the title of this thread can be used to summarize the Democrat philosophy. "Hey I have a great idea...so great that I will put you in prison if you dont go along with it"