GOP may "leverage" debt ceiling against de-funding Obamacare

[Avorysuds]

Avory, if you are not GOP, you have no dog in the hunt.

I supported my nominee to the end: that's what party politics is about.

Go for it, reactionaries, and your own demise is your own doing.

Calling you out as a progressive does not make me a reactionary. You calling me a reactionary for bringing up the growing (massively) costs of Obamacare is reactionary. I can prove my position, you like all Progressives believe in faith based economics, based purely on feelings rather than reality. Kinda like Mitt's Romneycare running 500 million dollar deficits every year that the rest of the nation gets to cover the bill.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You attacked me, Avory, and I returned it. Don't whine about what you dish but won't take. Yes, you are a reactionary in the purest sense. Your time is over.

We in the GOP cannot win this battle.

Your last sentence makes no sense.

 

[Avorysuds]

You attacked me, Avory, and I returned it. Don't whine about what you dish but won't take. Yes, you are a reactionary in the purest sense. Your time is over.

We in the GOP cannot win this battle.

Your last sentence makes no sense.

We caused the GOP to lose in 2012, or... we caused Mitt and you to lose in 2012... And I didn't attack you, you're a progressive, as you keep proving over and over and over and over, I simply pointed that out, just like every neocon, conservative, Libertarian, Republican and the like on these boards do to you near daily.

Your entire stance on the GOP winning any election is "don't fight giving people free shit we can't afford!"

The last sentence was talking about the massive deficit Romneycare runs every year in his state, that it has to collect federal money every year to not bankrupt itself. Just like Obamacare, Romneycare was based on hiding the costs until it was passed.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Avory, you are a reactionary, which condemns everything you say. I am mainstream, and, yes, you caused Mitt and the party to lose in 2012.

Your second paragraph is a fabrication, just you bubbling.

Your time in the GOP is over.

 

[Avorysuds]

Avory, you are a reactionary, which condemns everything you say. I am mainstream, and, yes, you caused Mitt and the party to lose in 2012.

Your second paragraph is a fabrication, just you bubbling.

Your time in the GOP is over.

2008 Ron Paul pulls about 5% of all votes cast in the primaries... 2012 Ron Paul pulls about 23-25% of all votes casts in the primaries and voter turnout in the primaries was slightly higher in 2012.


If Rand Runs he will more than likey win the primaries, and if he does not the GOP will take an even bigger hit than it did in 2012. The issue is that the Libertarian movement is rather large, seeing as Libertarians don't have any chance in the General elections we have had to either do write ins, not vote or vote republican. As the number or % or Libertarians have grown massively over the years, Ron Paull offered us a voice while mainstream progressive liberal Republican disenfranchised us.

What Ron did was show us the numbers for the first time, we are large, maybe 10% of the Republican voter base, but if you piss us off (and you have greatly) you will never win an election again. The Libertarian party as of this day, right now, is in fact the fastest growing party in the nation.

So you go right ahead and argue for Obamacare Jake, you're "mainstream," and seeing that your ignorance is still wide spread in the Republican party, it will continue to push people towards Libertarianism.

The Massachusetts plan might not have achieved universal coverage, but it has cost taxpayers a great deal of money. Originally, the plan was projected to cost $1.8 billion this year. Now it is expected to exceed those estimates by $150 million. Over the next 10 years, projections suggest that Romney-Care will cost about $2 billion more than was budgeted. And the cost to Massachusetts taxpayers could be even higher because new federal rules could deprive the state of $100 million per year in Medicaid money that the state planned to use to help finance the program.

Lessons from the Fall of RomneyCare | Cato Institute

 

[JakeStarkey]

One of the great pipe dreams is that the GOP mainstream is going libertarian.

You are not mainstream, merely a small now-ineffective group who think they represent America.

You don't, you never have, you never will.

A Governor Christie type will be the candidate in 2016.

 

[Avorysuds]

One of the great pipe dreams is that the GOP mainstream is going libertarian.

You are not mainstream, merely a small now-ineffective group who think they represent America.

You don't, you never have, you never will.

A Governor Christie type will be the candidate in 2016.

lol. Oh Jake. You cling to the mainstream thing but it does not mean what you think it means. You will vote for whatever is up on stage, you're mindless, the near clueless voter. The power you have is the shire size of the voter base, but it's simply not big enough. It needs more to win, a lot more... This is where Libertarians and independents come in, the anti mainstream. You have to appeal to us with more than shit talk about the other candidate, we care about policy.

I like where you are Jake, mainstream, stay right there. In 2012 Obama lost 4 million voters from 2008 and didn't grow the party at all, meaning Obama lost around 7 million voters in 1 election. Mitt lost despite that MASSIVE handicap, it should have been an easy win seeing as sines Ross P was the only other time in our history where a party lost voters since the wigs... But Mitt went to far left, he went full Progressive at points... People, even the mainstreams couldn't tell the difference between Mitt and Obama, it was a hurdle Mitt never quite made it over.

I don't care that there are more "mainstream" Republicans than there are actual conservatives Jake. fact is, without out our 10-15% (and growing) of the vote you can't fucking win.

Call us names, make us feel small... We never got what we wanted anyways so we're happy to take winning out of the equation for you so you know just how it feels =D

 

[Zona]

There is no leverage against the will of We the People, who have elected the President twice and has refused the GOP the legislative "leverage" to defund the ACA.

There is no leverage in using the debt limit. If the GOP does that, we Republicans will lose the House in 2014. Then the dems will go to 51% in the Senate and push through single payer.

This is over for the GOP except how badly we want to bleed over it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

One of the great pipe dreams is that the GOP mainstream is going libertarian.

You are not mainstream, merely a small now-ineffective group who think they represent America.

You don't, you never have, you never will.

A Governor Christie type will be the candidate in 2016.

C'mon Jake.

I became a Libertarian because I was fed up with the entire two party system. One is just as bad as the other. Why do you feel it necessary to put us down all the time? Are establishment Republicans afraid of us? It is common knowledge that people attack what they don't understand, or are afraid of.

 

[JakeStarkey]

One of the great pipe dreams is that the GOP mainstream is going libertarian.

You are not mainstream, merely a small now-ineffective group who think they represent America.

You don't, you never have, you never will.

A Governor Christie type will be the candidate in 2016.

C'mon Jake.

I became a Libertarian because I was fed up with the entire two party system. One is just as bad as the other. Why do you feel it necessary to put us down all the time? Are establishment Republicans afraid of us? It is common knowledge that people attack what they don't understand, or are afraid of.

You are one of the sensible conservatives on the Board. I also understand fully that you guys cannot agree on what are your 'libertarian' principles and your proposals. The one caution I have is that following 'libertarian' principles and candidates will continue a losing pattern for the GOP at the national level.

If you can create your own national party, TK, good for you, and I applaud it. But the mainstream of the party won't go your way.

 

[TemplarKormac]

One of the great pipe dreams is that the GOP mainstream is going libertarian.

You are not mainstream, merely a small now-ineffective group who think they represent America.

You don't, you never have, you never will.

A Governor Christie type will be the candidate in 2016.

C'mon Jake.

I became a Libertarian because I was fed up with the entire two party system. One is just as bad as the other. Why do you feel it necessary to put us down all the time? Are establishment Republicans afraid of us? It is common knowledge that people attack what they don't understand, or are afraid of.

You are one of the sensible conservatives on the Board. I also understand fully that you guys cannot agree on what are your 'libertarian' principles and your proposals. The one caution I have is that following 'libertarian' principles and candidates will continue a losing pattern for the GOP at the national level.

If you can create your own national party, TK, good for you, and I applaud it. But the mainstream of the party won't go your way.

It is true we do not understand fully our potential as a party yet. But what I have observed over the past few elections I've participated in, is in how little effect my party has had over politics on the national level. However, that is changing ever so gradually.

Being mainstream isn't all it's cracked up to be. I found that out the hard way. After being led like a dog on a leash by a party who had no direction, I began to look at a bigger picture. Both parties are that way. The whole idea of breaking off from the establishment is not wanting the "mainstream of the party" to go my way. People who lack the ability to think for themselves and take their philosophies in new directions are better left to the monotony of establishment principles.

 

[Zoom-boing]

One of the great pipe dreams is that the GOP mainstream is going libertarian.

You are not mainstream, merely a small now-ineffective group who think they represent America.

You don't, you never have, you never will.

A Governor Christie type will be the candidate in 2016.

C'mon Jake.

I became a Libertarian because I was fed up with the entire two party system. One is just as bad as the other. Why do you feel it necessary to put us down all the time? Are establishment Republicans afraid of us? It is common knowledge that people attack what they don't understand, or are afraid of.

You are one of the sensible conservatives on the Board. I also understand fully that you guys cannot agree on what are your 'libertarian' principles and your proposals. The one caution I have is that following 'libertarian' principles and candidates will continue a losing pattern for the GOP at the national level.

If you can create your own national party, TK, good for you, and I applaud it. But the mainstream of the party won't go your way.

Then the mainstream of the GOP better get back to being fiscal conservatives or they will continue to lose people to the L party or they simply will not vote. Either way, the GOP will lose.

 

[Vox]

C'mon Jake.

I became a Libertarian because I was fed up with the entire two party system. One is just as bad as the other. Why do you feel it necessary to put us down all the time? Are establishment Republicans afraid of us? It is common knowledge that people attack what they don't understand, or are afraid of.

You are one of the sensible conservatives on the Board. I also understand fully that you guys cannot agree on what are your 'libertarian' principles and your proposals. The one caution I have is that following 'libertarian' principles and candidates will continue a losing pattern for the GOP at the national level.

If you can create your own national party, TK, good for you, and I applaud it. But the mainstream of the party won't go your way.

Then the mainstream of the GOP better get back to being fiscal conservatives or they will continue to lose people to the L party or they simply will not vote. Either way, the GOP will lose.

there is no "mainstream" R party. There is a R party establishment, which is corrupted and of no use and there are R party voters which might as well vote out the establishment into oblivion....

 

[Avorysuds]

C'mon Jake.

I became a Libertarian because I was fed up with the entire two party system. One is just as bad as the other. Why do you feel it necessary to put us down all the time? Are establishment Republicans afraid of us? It is common knowledge that people attack what they don't understand, or are afraid of.

You are one of the sensible conservatives on the Board. I also understand fully that you guys cannot agree on what are your 'libertarian' principles and your proposals. The one caution I have is that following 'libertarian' principles and candidates will continue a losing pattern for the GOP at the national level.

If you can create your own national party, TK, good for you, and I applaud it. But the mainstream of the party won't go your way.

It is true we do not understand fully our potential as a party yet. But what I have observed over the past few elections I've participated in, is in how little effect my party has had over politics on the national level. However, that is changing ever so gradually.

Being mainstream isn't all it's cracked up to be. I found that out the hard way. After being led like a dog on a leash by a party who had no direction, I began to look at a bigger picture. Both parties are that way. The whole idea of breaking off from the establishment is not wanting the "mainstream of the party" to go my way. People who lack the ability to think for themselves and take their philosophies in new directions are better left to the monotony of establishment principles.

Careful, if you keep that kinda trash talk up (led by a leash - not able to think for ones self) Jake might take back his "you're a sensible Libertarian" because whelp, because if Jake says you're ok, then your ok... if not, you're a reactionary piece of trash who has no relevance at all whatsoever politically because your not "mainstream" like Jake... based 100% purely on Jakes opinion!

 

[TemplarKormac]

You are one of the sensible conservatives on the Board. I also understand fully that you guys cannot agree on what are your 'libertarian' principles and your proposals. The one caution I have is that following 'libertarian' principles and candidates will continue a losing pattern for the GOP at the national level.

If you can create your own national party, TK, good for you, and I applaud it. But the mainstream of the party won't go your way.

It is true we do not understand fully our potential as a party yet. But what I have observed over the past few elections I've participated in, is in how little effect my party has had over politics on the national level. However, that is changing ever so gradually.

Being mainstream isn't all it's cracked up to be. I found that out the hard way. After being led like a dog on a leash by a party who had no direction, I began to look at a bigger picture. Both parties are that way. The whole idea of breaking off from the establishment is not wanting the "mainstream of the party" to go my way. People who lack the ability to think for themselves and take their philosophies in new directions are better left to the monotony of establishment principles.

Careful, if you keep that kinda trash talk up (led by a leash - not able to think for ones self) Jake might take back his "you're a sensible Libertarian" because whelp, because if Jake says you're ok, then your ok... if not, you're a reactionary piece of trash who has no relevance at all whatsoever politically because your not "mainstream" like Jake... based 100% purely on Jakes opinion!

Jake and I made a pact of mutual respect earlier on this year. I still don't agree with everything he says, but that doesn't stop us from respecting one another. It does not however mean that we can't publicly disagree with each other either. I hold no control over his behavior and he is free to view me however he wishes. Whatever grudges we had in the past are buried. When people egg him on, they are merely kicking a hornets nest, try to be civil with him and he might just try to be civil with you.

You did see how we treated each other beforehand though, right? If I can manage to get on his good side, or him on my good side whichever you prefer, I surmise the entirety of this board can do the same. If I lose the respect of fellow board members because of that, well that is an issue that only the individual can reconcile with him or herself.

 

[JakeStarkey]

That is a sensible conservative talking there, TemplarKormac, and I appreciate it.

My point is that 'libertarianism' has no solid center and set of principles. Yet. And I suspect that it is more socially liberal than many reactionaries will accept.

But time will tell.

 

[JakeStarkey]

C'mon Jake.

I became a Libertarian because I was fed up with the entire two party system. One is just as bad as the other. Why do you feel it necessary to put us down all the time? Are establishment Republicans afraid of us? It is common knowledge that people attack what they don't understand, or are afraid of.

You are one of the sensible conservatives on the Board. I also understand fully that you guys cannot agree on what are your 'libertarian' principles and your proposals. The one caution I have is that following 'libertarian' principles and candidates will continue a losing pattern for the GOP at the national level.

If you can create your own national party, TK, good for you, and I applaud it. But the mainstream of the party won't go your way.

Then the mainstream of the GOP better get back to being fiscal conservatives or they will continue to lose people to the L party or they simply will not vote. Either way, the GOP will lose.

Sensible fiscal policies, yes, and more socially liberal as well. The old way of social conservatism will not wash with the millenials and older generations of young people.

Along with many of the TPM I would like to see the neo-cons leave and be replaced with a much more neo-isolationistic foreign policy.

But, yes, the GOP is going to change or it will die. Going to the far reactionary right will result in political death for the party.

 

[TemplarKormac]

And just a side note, I will neg the first person who says I'm sucking up to him. I don't care who you are, friend or foe. I made a gesture of good faith, and as it stands Jake has returned my good faith in full. I'm hoping that such gesture will lead to more such good faith gestures in the USMB community. Some of you may find it hard to forgive him, and if you don't want to, I'm not asking you to. But I don't expect to be put down for this, so heed my warning all ye who read this.

Carry on!

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thanks for that, TK, but let my opponents of the far right do as they will, knowing I will deal with no sweat whatsoever whatever happens.

And, yes, any of you who are going to accuse TK of "sucking up" are simply making matters far too personal.

I have always stated that I will treat others how they treat me.

 

[Redfish]

That is a sensible conservative talking there, TemplarKormac, and I appreciate it.

My point is that 'libertarianism' has no solid center and set of principles. Yet. And I suspect that it is more socially liberal than many reactionaries will accept.

But time will tell.

the vast majority of libertarians want smaller federal govt, lower taxes, less govt intrusion into our daily lives, sensible foreign policy, sensible fiscal policy, constitutional govt, individual freedom, individual responsibility.

Not really very complex. What to you want jake?