Greatest thread to human civilization : capitalist greed - Stephen Hawkin

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Asian economies lean toward mercantile capitalism at the expense of their low-wage-earning citizens.

actually China just eliminated 40% of the entire planets poverty by switching to capitalism.

If china was a more open economy, it would be a more modern capitalist model like the US, rather than a fairly tightly administrated mercantile system. Modern, rather than mercantile capitalism is the lesson to follow.

China is very open in that it competes all over the world with 10's of 1000's of products on the basis of price and quality.

Mercantile capitalism?? What?????????

It is a relatively open economy Ed: It has special economic zones with special rules, it has state controlled exchange rates, it didn't allow indirect foreign investment in a long time and recently it has become increasingly protectionist. They have been toying with the US for a long time.

"This is the first time in recent memory that we are seeing quite a lot of protectionism in China targeting commodities imports," said Simon Evenett, professor of international trade at Switzerland's University of St Gallen.

"This is a new dimension in Chinese intervention in commodities markets."

Rise of protectionism in China a threat to commodities imports

China is very open in that it competes all over the world with 10's of 1000's of products on the basis of price and quality.

"Capitalism With Chinese Characteristics"


"How China Became Capitalist"

In his new book titled Markets over Mao: The rise of private businesses in China, Lardy argues that even though SOEs still enjoy monopoly positions in some key sectors in China, such as energy and telecommunications, their role in the overall economy has diminished significantly over the years. Here are some of the facts he presents to back his thesis: in 2011, China’s state-controlled firms only accounted for about a quarter of the country’s industrial output; and their share in exports has dropped to about 11% today; in 2012, state firms were only responsible for about one-tenth of fixed investment in manufacturing. And in terms of employment, SOEs employed about 13% of China’s labor force in 2011, a dramatic decline compared with the 60% figure recorded in 1999.

 

[Programmer]

“If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed.” Hawking continued, “Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality."

We have been warned.

Stephen Hawking Warns About The Greatest Threat To Humanity | Zero Hedge

Mankind's lot prior to capitalism was pretty grim. Average life expectancy for all but the wealthy was 35 to 40. No travel, tied down to an area of around 10 square miles for your entire life. A whole litany of pains due to a work week approaching 80 hours per. No real entertainment other than fighting, screwing and the occasional wedding.

Yep, the pre capitalist life was WONDERFUL!

It was science and the industrial revolution which did that, not Capitalism.
And then the form of Capitalism that spawned the industrial revolution was merchantilism , not our current system.
If your argument was true, life expectancy would be very low in Cuba , and it's almost as high as in the US.
Now , that doesn't mean their government or economic system should be a model, I am just pointing out the flaws in your statements.

In fact modern capitalism will improve people's lot over mercantile capitalism. Asian economies lean toward mercantile capitalism at the expense of their low-wage-earning citizens.

Nope,
Merchantilist policies and protectionism play a very important role while an economy is in development. The US and GB were extremely protectionist before they were fully developed nations.

I'd give you that, but modern US capitalism has its protections too, but they relate to trading resources vs domestic exploitation and reserves. Does China need to think about reserves vs exports, or should they just rely on US debt positions to function?

 

[westwall]

LOL! No, it isnt. And btw Malthus predicted overpopulation would be a threat, yeah over 100 years ago. He was wrong then and that view is wrong now In fact the opposite is the problem.

He was actually right. Easter Island and the Mayan civilization collapsed due to overpopulation .
A given territory can only sustain about 1,400 people per square kilometre, so an actuall worldwide collapse can only happen if such threshold is reached. In the mean time we can expect local collapses if countries surpass such limit.

No he wasnt, as history shows. A localized collapse (and there can be different reasons such as weather change) does not prove Mathus' theory. You could even argue the Mayans collapsed because they introduced socialism and people stopped working.
Many places have population density well over 1400/sq meter. They seem to be doing fine.

Easter Island collapsed due to a lack of environmental policy : they cut down all the trees. No trees, no timber , no fishing boats, followed by deaths until they reached a sustainable level.

Mayans were not socialists. They collapsed because they overpopulated the zone, and then a drought hit them.
A similar situation is happening in California, luckily the US is centuries more advanced than the mayans, so I am confident the outcome will be different.

So actualluy none of them collapsed due to overpopulation. Another liberal claim refuted.
California has a drought because policiticans fucked up. Socialism kills.

Rabi,

Indeed, overpopulation was not the only factor but the main and driving factor. In the case of easter island
Overpopulation lead to overuse of resources which lead to complete deforestation which in turn caused their collapse.

"Barbara A. West wrote, "Sometime before the arrival of Europeans on Easter Island, the Rapanui experienced a tremendous upheaval in their social system brought about by a change in their island's ecology... By the time of European arrival in 1722, the island's population had dropped to 2,000–3,000 from a high of approximately 15,000 just a century earlier."

Easter Island - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, mankind stuck on a very small island with no natural predators is an invitation for disaster. No question. The Earth on the other hand has a carrying capacity estimated at 40 BILLION people. We will never get anywhere near that number though. Population increase is already dropping world wide. Demographers calculate the world population will peak at 9 billion then level off back down to 6 billion.

 

[bripat9643]

“If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed.” Hawking continued, “Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality."

We have been warned.

Stephen Hawking Warns About The Greatest Threat To Humanity | Zero Hedge

Mankind's lot prior to capitalism was pretty grim. Average life expectancy for all but the wealthy was 35 to 40. No travel, tied down to an area of around 10 square miles for your entire life. A whole litany of pains due to a work week approaching 80 hours per. No real entertainment other than fighting, screwing and the occasional wedding.

Yep, the pre capitalist life was WONDERFUL!

It was science and the industrial revolution which did that, not Capitalism.
And then the form of Capitalism that spawned the industrial revolution was merchantilism , not our current system.
If your argument was true, life expectancy would be very low in Cuba , and it's almost as high as in the US.
Now , that doesn't mean their government or economic system should be a model, I am just pointing out the flaws in your statements.

In fact modern capitalism will improve people's lot over mercantile capitalism. Asian economies lean toward mercantile capitalism at the expense of their low-wage-earning citizens.

Nope,
Merchantilist policies and protectionism play a very important role while an economy is in development. The US and GB were extremely protectionist before they were fully developed nations.

You committed the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. Because 'B' follows 'A' it doesn't follow that 'A' caused 'B.' All countries were protectionists in those days. The mercantilists invented a theory to justify it, but economists debunked it long ago. Tariffs do not benefit the country that imposes them.

Tariffs in the U.S. have varied over time, so it's inaccurate to claim it was "protectionist" before it was "fully developed," whatever that nebulous expression is supposed to mean. You must also keep in mind that tariffs were the primary means of financing the federal government before the 16th Amendment was passed.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Ed, it has state controlled exchange rates,

how stupid is that given that we too have a central bank that pumped $4trillion into the economy!!!

 

[westwall]

“If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed.” Hawking continued, “Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality."

We have been warned.

Stephen Hawking Warns About The Greatest Threat To Humanity | Zero Hedge

Mankind's lot prior to capitalism was pretty grim. Average life expectancy for all but the wealthy was 35 to 40. No travel, tied down to an area of around 10 square miles for your entire life. A whole litany of pains due to a work week approaching 80 hours per. No real entertainment other than fighting, screwing and the occasional wedding.

Yep, the pre capitalist life was WONDERFUL!

It was science and the industrial revolution which did that, not Capitalism.
And then the form of Capitalism that spawned the industrial revolution was merchantilism , not our current system.
If your argument was true, life expectancy would be very low in Cuba , and it's almost as high as in the US.
Now , that doesn't mean their government or economic system should be a model, I am just pointing out the flaws in your statements.

My how blissfully ignorant you are. Capitalism DROVE the scientific discoveries. Capitalism WAS the INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION! Who do you think started all of that?

Truly now. You have to do better than that.

 

[westwall]

If your argument was true, life expectancy would be very low in Cuba , and it's almost as high as in the US.
.

100% stupid. Cuba copies western capitalist invented medicine and uses 75% of its GDP to deliver it and nothing else to its citizens most of whom live on pennies a day!!

Medicine predates capitalism Ed. Ever heard of Hippocrates?
Probably not, google it.

There was medicine before him too. It just wasn't very good now was it....

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

He was actually right. Easter Island and the Mayan civilization collapsed due to overpopulation .
A given territory can only sustain about 1,400 people per square kilometre, so an actuall worldwide collapse can only happen if such threshold is reached. In the mean time we can expect local collapses if countries surpass such limit.

No he wasnt, as history shows. A localized collapse (and there can be different reasons such as weather change) does not prove Mathus' theory. You could even argue the Mayans collapsed because they introduced socialism and people stopped working.
Many places have population density well over 1400/sq meter. They seem to be doing fine.

Easter Island collapsed due to a lack of environmental policy : they cut down all the trees. No trees, no timber , no fishing boats, followed by deaths until they reached a sustainable level.

Mayans were not socialists. They collapsed because they overpopulated the zone, and then a drought hit them.
A similar situation is happening in California, luckily the US is centuries more advanced than the mayans, so I am confident the outcome will be different.

So actualluy none of them collapsed due to overpopulation. Another liberal claim refuted.
California has a drought because policiticans fucked up. Socialism kills.

Rabi,

Indeed, overpopulation was not the only factor but the main and driving factor. In the case of easter island
Overpopulation lead to overuse of resources which lead to complete deforestation which in turn caused their collapse.

"Barbara A. West wrote, "Sometime before the arrival of Europeans on Easter Island, the Rapanui experienced a tremendous upheaval in their social system brought about by a change in their island's ecology... By the time of European arrival in 1722, the island's population had dropped to 2,000–3,000 from a high of approximately 15,000 just a century earlier."

Easter Island - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, mankind stuck on a very small island with no natural predators is an invitation for disaster. No question. The Earth on the other hand has a carrying capacity estimated at 40 BILLION people. We will never get anywhere near that number though. Population increase is already dropping world wide. Demographers calculate the world population will peak at 9 billion then level off back down to 6 billion.

yes and all the worlds population could fit into the pan handle of Texas at the density on Manhattan.

 

[westwall]

“If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed.” Hawking continued, “Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality."

We have been warned.

Stephen Hawking Warns About The Greatest Threat To Humanity | Zero Hedge

And we can legislate away our sins through fascism/socialism.

This is what they mean by our "collective salvation".

Repent sinners!! Turn from your sins and vote for Bernie or die in hell fire capitalistic global warming!!

Just out of curiosity, do left wingers baptize yet?

Fascism & Socialism are not the same.
Why is it that Fascists can't understand that?

The way they treat their people is the same so yeah, they are pretty much the same. Consider them the same style house with a different paint job.

 

[bripat9643]

“If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed.” Hawking continued, “Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality."

We have been warned.

Stephen Hawking Warns About The Greatest Threat To Humanity | Zero Hedge

Mankind's lot prior to capitalism was pretty grim. Average life expectancy for all but the wealthy was 35 to 40. No travel, tied down to an area of around 10 square miles for your entire life. A whole litany of pains due to a work week approaching 80 hours per. No real entertainment other than fighting, screwing and the occasional wedding.

Yep, the pre capitalist life was WONDERFUL!

Unregulated capitalism was the horror of the Industrial Revolution before GOVERNMENTS began to intervene and rein in the capitalists.

Yes, it was. And yet it was still orders of magnitude better than that which came before.

People like NYCarbineer seem to be totally ignorant of the fact that before the industrial revolution people starved to death on a regular basis. They romanticize farm life, but the reality was that it was monotonous brutal labor. Children all worked from the age of 5. People had one suit of clothes to wear and they were filthy. Women would routinely have a dozen children, but most of them would die before they reached adulthood.

Yeah, that sounds like paradise.

 

[CultureCitizen]

“If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed.” Hawking continued, “Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality."

We have been warned.

Stephen Hawking Warns About The Greatest Threat To Humanity | Zero Hedge

Mankind's lot prior to capitalism was pretty grim. Average life expectancy for all but the wealthy was 35 to 40. No travel, tied down to an area of around 10 square miles for your entire life. A whole litany of pains due to a work week approaching 80 hours per. No real entertainment other than fighting, screwing and the occasional wedding.

Yep, the pre capitalist life was WONDERFUL!

It was science and the industrial revolution which did that, not Capitalism.
And then the form of Capitalism that spawned the industrial revolution was merchantilism , not our current system.
If your argument was true, life expectancy would be very low in Cuba , and it's almost as high as in the US.
Now , that doesn't mean their government or economic system should be a model, I am just pointing out the flaws in your statements.

In fact modern capitalism will improve people's lot over mercantile capitalism. Asian economies lean toward mercantile capitalism at the expense of their low-wage-earning citizens.

Nope,
Merchantilist policies and protectionism play a very important role while an economy is in development. The US and GB were extremely protectionist before they were fully developed nations.

I'd give you that, but modern US capitalism has its protections too, but they relate to trading resources vs domestic exploitation and reserves. Does China need to think about reserves vs exports, or should they just rely on US debt positions to function?

I think trade balances have to be negotiated, the US has been running a deficit with china for a long time. This has helped china become industrialized , but it is an unsustainable situation. An increasing deficit will hurt both economies in the long run ( in a sinister twist they could use all the reserves to adquire industries in the US turning it in a vassl state, but maybe that's me being too paranoid ) .

 

[westwall]

“If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed.” Hawking continued, “Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality."

We have been warned.

Stephen Hawking Warns About The Greatest Threat To Humanity | Zero Hedge

Mankind's lot prior to capitalism was pretty grim. Average life expectancy for all but the wealthy was 35 to 40. No travel, tied down to an area of around 10 square miles for your entire life. A whole litany of pains due to a work week approaching 80 hours per. No real entertainment other than fighting, screwing and the occasional wedding.

Yep, the pre capitalist life was WONDERFUL!

Unregulated capitalism was the horror of the Industrial Revolution before GOVERNMENTS began to intervene and rein in the capitalists.

Yes, it was. And yet it was still orders of magnitude better than that which came before.

People like NYCarbineer seem to be totally ignorant of the fact that before the industrial revolution people starved to death on a regular basis. They romanticize farm life, but the reality was that it was monotonous brutal labor. Children all worked from the age of 5. People had one suit of clothes to wear and they were filthy. Women would routinely have a dozen children, but most of them would die before they reached adulthood.

Yeah, that sounds like paradise.

Yep. The reason for the high birth rates were twofold, labor for the farm and the fact that most kids didn't make it into adulthood. Hell during the medieval era they wouldn't even name a kid till it was two years old in many places. The infant mortality rates were so high. The one thing that always strikes me about these hard core progressives is how little history they have read. The world prior to capitalism was truly a festering shithole.

Capitalism is far from perfect, but it is so far the economic system that has helped THE greatest number of people to attain some semblance of a well balanced life with a level of wealth that their forbears could only dream about (even the poor in this country are wealthy beyond belief compared to the poor in Africa and Asia)in the shortest period of time.

 

[Programmer]

Asian economies lean toward mercantile capitalism at the expense of their low-wage-earning citizens.

actually China just eliminated 40% of the entire planets poverty by switching to capitalism.

If china was a more open economy, it would be a more modern capitalist model like the US, rather than a fairly tightly administrated mercantile system. Modern, rather than mercantile capitalism is the lesson to follow.

China is very open in that it competes all over the world with 10's of 1000's of products on the basis of price and quality.

Mercantile capitalism?? What?????????

It is a relatively open economy Ed: It has special economic zones with special rules, it has state controlled exchange rates, it didn't allow indirect foreign investment in a long time and recently it has become increasingly protectionist. They have been toying with the US for a long time.

"This is the first time in recent memory that we are seeing quite a lot of protectionism in China targeting commodities imports," said Simon Evenett, professor of international trade at Switzerland's University of St Gallen.

"This is a new dimension in Chinese intervention in commodities markets."

Rise of protectionism in China a threat to commodities imports

China is very open in that it competes all over the world with 10's of 1000's of products on the basis of price and quality.

"Capitalism With Chinese Characteristics"


"How China Became Capitalist"

In his new book titled Markets over Mao: The rise of private businesses in China, Lardy argues that even though SOEs still enjoy monopoly positions in some key sectors in China, such as energy and telecommunications, their role in the overall economy has diminished significantly over the years. Here are some of the facts he presents to back his thesis: in 2011, China’s state-controlled firms only accounted for about a quarter of the country’s industrial output; and their share in exports has dropped to about 11% today; in 2012, state firms were only responsible for about one-tenth of fixed investment in manufacturing. And in terms of employment, SOEs employed about 13% of China’s labor force in 2011, a dramatic decline compared with the 60% figure recorded in 1999.

There are a lot of controls on doing business in china as a foreign company or domestic. Getting money to fill those orders is still very different and difficult. My point with mercantilism is regarding their imports and importation laws, moreover. Stronger consumption performance indicates a modern economics.

 

[Programmer]

actually China just eliminated 40% of the entire planets poverty by switching to capitalism.

If china was a more open economy, it would be a more modern capitalist model like the US, rather than a fairly tightly administrated mercantile system. Modern, rather than mercantile capitalism is the lesson to follow.

China is very open in that it competes all over the world with 10's of 1000's of products on the basis of price and quality.

Mercantile capitalism?? What?????????

It is a relatively open economy Ed: It has special economic zones with special rules, it has state controlled exchange rates, it didn't allow indirect foreign investment in a long time and recently it has become increasingly protectionist. They have been toying with the US for a long time.

"This is the first time in recent memory that we are seeing quite a lot of protectionism in China targeting commodities imports," said Simon Evenett, professor of international trade at Switzerland's University of St Gallen.

"This is a new dimension in Chinese intervention in commodities markets."

Rise of protectionism in China a threat to commodities imports

China is very open in that it competes all over the world with 10's of 1000's of products on the basis of price and quality.

"Capitalism With Chinese Characteristics"


"How China Became Capitalist"

In his new book titled Markets over Mao: The rise of private businesses in China, Lardy argues that even though SOEs still enjoy monopoly positions in some key sectors in China, such as energy and telecommunications, their role in the overall economy has diminished significantly over the years. Here are some of the facts he presents to back his thesis: in 2011, China’s state-controlled firms only accounted for about a quarter of the country’s industrial output; and their share in exports has dropped to about 11% today; in 2012, state firms were only responsible for about one-tenth of fixed investment in manufacturing. And in terms of employment, SOEs employed about 13% of China’s labor force in 2011, a dramatic decline compared with the 60% figure recorded in 1999.

There are a lot of controls on doing business in china as a foreign company or domestic. Getting money to fill those orders is still very different and difficult. My point with mercantilism is regarding their imports and importation laws, moreover. Stronger consumption performance indicates modern economics.

 

[bedowin62]

why does it always seem like the comfortable, privileged ones most ardently adovocating for a socialist solution, even at the extreme end of the spectrum sometimes?

i'm reminded of the saying be careful what you ask for

 

[CultureCitizen]

Ed, it has state controlled exchange rates,

how stupid is that given that we too have a central bank that pumped $4trillion into the economy!!!

Ed,
The central bank ( aka the Fed ) is NOT state owned.

"The Federal Reserve System's structure is composed of the presidentially appointed Board of Governors or Federal Reserve Board (FRB), partially presidentially appointed Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC), twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation, numerous privately owned U.S. member banks, and various advisory council".

Federal Reserve System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[idb]

“If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed.” Hawking continued, “Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality."

We have been warned.

Stephen Hawking Warns About The Greatest Threat To Humanity | Zero Hedge

Mankind's lot prior to capitalism was pretty grim. Average life expectancy for all but the wealthy was 35 to 40. No travel, tied down to an area of around 10 square miles for your entire life. A whole litany of pains due to a work week approaching 80 hours per. No real entertainment other than fighting, screwing and the occasional wedding.

Yep, the pre capitalist life was WONDERFUL!

He wasn't decrying capitalism.

I believe the word "threat" implies that...don't you?

He didn't describe capitalism as the threat though, did he?

 

[IsaacNewton]

"Hawkin" has a point.

Eventually, if labor is eliminated, capitalism as we know it will be too.

His point though is that the few who own the machines will not give up their wealth voluntarily. Thus a violent revolution. Twas always thus and always thus will be.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

There are a lot of controls on doing business in china.

who knows what the means when our Federal Register is now measured in the 100's of pounds!!

 

[Kosh]

The greatest threat to Human civilization is the far left religion.

Although I admire Stephen Hawkins for his science, it is sad when they come out to make real world predictions that make them look dumber than a box of rocks..