Gun culture or parenting culture?

[Divine Wind]

What they do know is you have access to withdraw money from your account. Once you type your password in, you have a section of things you wish to do. So even if you went there to deposit money, it doesn't matter. When that gun is in your face and the crook tells you to withdraw the maximum, you withdraw the maximum.

And the crook does this standing in front of the ATM camera?

Yes. Most crooks are stupid. Smart crooks put on a 3-piece suit and either work on Wall Street or K Street.

 

[Divine Wind]

When I was a kid the Boys club had a .22 range.

That changed when PC faggotry entered.

Don't blame gays for the anti-gun mob.....although gays often associate with those who are anti-gun.

 

[meaner gene]

No, a President can't cut the deficit--only Congress can. And yes, the Republicans did cut the deficit after they regained leadership of Congress.

Actually the president has the ultimate deficit reducer. I'ts called a VETO. Unless overriden by 2/3rds of both houses, which doesn't happen very often.

 

[Skull Pilot]

so what?

even the most skilled and trained person can make a mistake it happens but it is rare

Which is my point. If highly trained and skilled people with guns make deadly mistakes. What chance do untrained civilians have of not panicing and shooting up the countryside because somebody looked at them funny,.

how often does a person with a cc permit "shoot up the countryside"?

it just doesn't happen

in fact people with CC permits tend to me more law abiding than the general public

 

[Skull Pilot]

Because you shoot anybody for looking at you funny, you'll find yourself in jail.

Not if he had a gun. Whether he pulled it out or not. It's mere presence was a threat to life and limb, which justified your shooting first. Right?

the thing is you don't know who is carrying a concealed weapon do you?

chances are if a guy is brandishing a gun in public he doesn't have good intentions so there may or may not be cause to shoot in self defense

and only people like you who are afraid of guns think the mere fact that a person is carrying is a threat

 

[meaner gene]

and only people like you who are afraid of guns think the mere fact that a person is carrying is a threat

If your theory worked, wouldn't states outlaw concealed carry, and instead have all it's armed citizens go around letting people know they were armed citizens?

 

[Dragonlady]

I found a local gun story that I wanted to share because the accused is a minor. Kids with guns are not all that unusual (especially here in Cleveland) but what I found most telling is the response of the mother.

In short, this kid was arrested for having BB gun in a public park (very similar to the Tamir Rice situation) a year earlier. The judge went easy on the kid, but now the 16 year old was busted having a real loaded gun. Here are some quotes from the mother:

"He has to learn the right way. I can't stop him." When the I TEAM asked where he got the gun this time, his mother said, "I don't know. Don't know. He was using it for protection. He was walking down the street and people would shoot at him. Nowadays, that's what you need for protection. I don't consider it a good thing."

That mom says she did talk to her son before the Parma BB gun incident and after it. Didn’t matter. She said, “Kids these days need to learn their own lessons. He's learning his lessons."

Teen caught with BB gun at Parma park now busted with gun; mom says she can’t stop him

With the path this kid is on, it's more than likely he'll be dead or in prison for murder the next decade. Then the left will blame the guns.

Another thing that struck me: she said "I don't know, and I can't stop him." Not "We can't stop him" as if there was a father figure around. This woman practically justified her son illegally carrying a likely stolen gun underage. When he gets older and arrested for shooting somebody, I'm sure the mother will once again respond to a news interview by saying "My baby didn't do nutting wrong, he's a good boy." If he gets gunned down in the street, well........then I guess he "learned his own lessons."

There is more to it than a parenting problem. There's a society problem.

In what world do kids think they need weapons to protect themselves? Well, in a society that is failing to protect people, to instill morals into kids and all of that.

The right love to say how it's the parents' fault. The problem is that the right will also push the very same parents to work 80 hours a week so the rich can get richer. They also don't place any responsibility on schools to help deal with all the issues out there. So, the right essentially like to create the environment for this kind of thing, and then bitch and moan that the parents aren't doing anything about it.

According to the LEFT, women who stay home and raise their kids are FREELOADERS.

I notice how right wingers are all two parent families with a stay at home Mom and a Dad that works, but only if you are middle class.

If you are poor, you should take a second job to support your family and upgrade your education so you can get out of your minimum wage job. But you should not be getting food stamps or other forms of welfare. You should improve your own situation.

How can you work two jobs and be a parent to your children? How can you take classes to get ahead and do homework, work full time, run a house hold and give your children any kind of quality time?

Right wingers are constantly telling women that a stay at home Mom is best for the family UNLESS that family is poor, in which case, she's lazy if she stays home.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

If you are poor, you should take a second job to support your family and upgrade your education so you can get out of your minimum wage job.

No, if you are poor, you shouldn't be having a family you can't support.

How can you work two jobs and be a parent to your children? How can you take classes to get ahead and do homework, work full time, run a house hold and give your children any kind of quality time?

You can't. That's why you don't have kids until you do all those things first.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

and only people like you who are afraid of guns think the mere fact that a person is carrying is a threat

If your theory worked, wouldn't states outlaw concealed carry, and instead have all it's armed citizens go around letting people know they were armed citizens?

When were were considering our CCW law, I was in a debate in a local forum. An anti-CCW guy asked me why I wanted to see the law passed? I told him that my mother is elderly and never drove a car in her life. To get out of the house and perhaps some exercise, my mother walked everywhere she went, and I wanted the CCW law passed at the very least for the safety of my mother.

He responded and asked me that if the law did pass, would my mother carry a firearm?

To that I responded, no she would't, but the criminals don't know that.

 

[2aguy]

I found a local gun story that I wanted to share because the accused is a minor. Kids with guns are not all that unusual (especially here in Cleveland) but what I found most telling is the response of the mother.

In short, this kid was arrested for having BB gun in a public park (very similar to the Tamir Rice situation) a year earlier. The judge went easy on the kid, but now the 16 year old was busted having a real loaded gun. Here are some quotes from the mother:

"He has to learn the right way. I can't stop him." When the I TEAM asked where he got the gun this time, his mother said, "I don't know. Don't know. He was using it for protection. He was walking down the street and people would shoot at him. Nowadays, that's what you need for protection. I don't consider it a good thing."

That mom says she did talk to her son before the Parma BB gun incident and after it. Didn’t matter. She said, “Kids these days need to learn their own lessons. He's learning his lessons."

Teen caught with BB gun at Parma park now busted with gun; mom says she can’t stop him

With the path this kid is on, it's more than likely he'll be dead or in prison for murder the next decade. Then the left will blame the guns.

Another thing that struck me: she said "I don't know, and I can't stop him." Not "We can't stop him" as if there was a father figure around. This woman practically justified her son illegally carrying a likely stolen gun underage. When he gets older and arrested for shooting somebody, I'm sure the mother will once again respond to a news interview by saying "My baby didn't do nutting wrong, he's a good boy." If he gets gunned down in the street, well........then I guess he "learned his own lessons."

There is more to it than a parenting problem. There's a society problem.

In what world do kids think they need weapons to protect themselves? Well, in a society that is failing to protect people, to instill morals into kids and all of that.

The right love to say how it's the parents' fault. The problem is that the right will also push the very same parents to work 80 hours a week so the rich can get richer. They also don't place any responsibility on schools to help deal with all the issues out there. So, the right essentially like to create the environment for this kind of thing, and then bitch and moan that the parents aren't doing anything about it.

According to the LEFT, women who stay home and raise their kids are FREELOADERS.

I notice how right wingers are all two parent families with a stay at home Mom and a Dad that works, but only if you are middle class.

If you are poor, you should take a second job to support your family and upgrade your education so you can get out of your minimum wage job. But you should not be getting food stamps or other forms of welfare. You should improve your own situation.

How can you work two jobs and be a parent to your children? How can you take classes to get ahead and do homework, work full time, run a house hold and give your children any kind of quality time?

Right wingers are constantly telling women that a stay at home Mom is best for the family UNLESS that family is poor, in which case, she's lazy if she stays home.

There are a few things you can do that will keep you out of poverty....

1) graduate with a high school diploma

2) do not get arrested and convicted of a crime

3) do not have children until you get married

Do those 3 things and odds are you will not end up in poverty.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No, a President can't cut the deficit--only Congress can. And yes, the Republicans did cut the deficit after they regained leadership of Congress.

Actually the president has the ultimate deficit reducer. I'ts called a VETO. Unless overriden by 2/3rds of both houses, which doesn't happen very often.

You are correct which is why they didn't reduce the deficit even more.

The biggest problem between the Republican Congress and DumBama is he wanted too spend more and the Republicans wanted to spend less. It led us to losing our three star credit rating for the first time since our founding. It led to the government shutdown. It led to the sequester.

 

[2aguy]

I found a local gun story that I wanted to share because the accused is a minor. Kids with guns are not all that unusual (especially here in Cleveland) but what I found most telling is the response of the mother.

In short, this kid was arrested for having BB gun in a public park (very similar to the Tamir Rice situation) a year earlier. The judge went easy on the kid, but now the 16 year old was busted having a real loaded gun. Here are some quotes from the mother:

"He has to learn the right way. I can't stop him." When the I TEAM asked where he got the gun this time, his mother said, "I don't know. Don't know. He was using it for protection. He was walking down the street and people would shoot at him. Nowadays, that's what you need for protection. I don't consider it a good thing."

That mom says she did talk to her son before the Parma BB gun incident and after it. Didn’t matter. She said, “Kids these days need to learn their own lessons. He's learning his lessons."

Teen caught with BB gun at Parma park now busted with gun; mom says she can’t stop him

With the path this kid is on, it's more than likely he'll be dead or in prison for murder the next decade. Then the left will blame the guns.

Another thing that struck me: she said "I don't know, and I can't stop him." Not "We can't stop him" as if there was a father figure around. This woman practically justified her son illegally carrying a likely stolen gun underage. When he gets older and arrested for shooting somebody, I'm sure the mother will once again respond to a news interview by saying "My baby didn't do nutting wrong, he's a good boy." If he gets gunned down in the street, well........then I guess he "learned his own lessons."

There is more to it than a parenting problem. There's a society problem.

In what world do kids think they need weapons to protect themselves? Well, in a society that is failing to protect people, to instill morals into kids and all of that.

The right love to say how it's the parents' fault. The problem is that the right will also push the very same parents to work 80 hours a week so the rich can get richer. They also don't place any responsibility on schools to help deal with all the issues out there. So, the right essentially like to create the environment for this kind of thing, and then bitch and moan that the parents aren't doing anything about it.

According to the LEFT, women who stay home and raise their kids are FREELOADERS.

I notice how right wingers are all two parent families with a stay at home Mom and a Dad that works, but only if you are middle class.

If you are poor, you should take a second job to support your family and upgrade your education so you can get out of your minimum wage job. But you should not be getting food stamps or other forms of welfare. You should improve your own situation.

How can you work two jobs and be a parent to your children? How can you take classes to get ahead and do homework, work full time, run a house hold and give your children any kind of quality time?

Right wingers are constantly telling women that a stay at home Mom is best for the family UNLESS that family is poor, in which case, she's lazy if she stays home.

This is the key for poor kids to get out of poverty....

Three Simple Rules Poor Teens Should Follow to Join the Middle Class | Brookings Institution

at least finish high school, get a full-time job and wait until age 21 to get married and have children.

Our research shows that of American adults who followed these three simple rules, only about 2 percent are in poverty and nearly 75 percent have joined the middle class (defined as earning around $55,000 or more per year). There are surely influences other than these principles at play, but following them guides a young adult away from poverty and toward the middle class.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What was the cop supposed to do?

IMO, the cop was too quick on the trigger since, IIRC, the kid didn't piont the gun at him or anyone. Now, if the kid was pointing the gun at a person, then immediate shooting is justified.

He might have been, but that doesn't mean he did anything wrong or illegal.

If at all possible, you don't wait until somebody is pointing a gun at you before you fire. If you perceive a threat of your life, then you have the right to stop that threat with deadly force yourself.

So, the fact I know you are armed is justification to shoot you? I think not.

No, pulling it out while in front of a police officer is.

Wasn't it already out? Sorry, but the police officer was too quick to shoot. He had cover and the "suspect" wasn't pointing the gun at him. He had time to take control of the situation.

Three experienced police officers who testified agreed the situation was mishandled: How to Make a Police Shooting Disappear: The Tamir Rice Story

Nonetheless, extremists are all about "all or nothing". I know the anti-gun, anti-police mob is like that. I hope you aren't likewise. There are over 750,000 LEOs in this nation. Mistakes happen, but they shouldn't be covered up. They also shouldn't be extrapolated by a bunch of anti-gun and/or anti-cop assholes to mean one mistake applies to all concerned.

It's less a question of if it could have been handled better than the question of whether the officer did anything wrong or illegal. The jury found he didn't with the aid of the video tape.

The gun was out but not lifted at the officer yet. As soon as the officer seen the gun, he shot.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What they do know is you have access to withdraw money from your account. Once you type your password in, you have a section of things you wish to do. So even if you went there to deposit money, it doesn't matter. When that gun is in your face and the crook tells you to withdraw the maximum, you withdraw the maximum.

And the crook does this standing in front of the ATM camera?

Depends. Some of the people left a wide enough space for the crook to wedge between the car and the machine in which case, the camera would only get a shot of his back. Other times when they approach from the front of the car, the crook is on the side of the camera.

But ATM cameras did help catch some of the robbers.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Because you shoot anybody for looking at you funny, you'll find yourself in jail.

Not if he had a gun. Whether he pulled it out or not. It's mere presence was a threat to life and limb, which justified your shooting first. Right?

No, wrong. Just because somebody has a gun on them doesn't give you the right to shoot them. Again, the law states that a CCW holder can use deadly force if they believe they are in jeopardy of serious bodily harm or death. Just because somebody else may have a gun doesn't mean you are anywhere near serious bodily harm or death, especially if they didn't have their hand near the gun.

 

[Divine Wind]

IMO, the cop was too quick on the trigger since, IIRC, the kid didn't piont the gun at him or anyone. Now, if the kid was pointing the gun at a person, then immediate shooting is justified.

He might have been, but that doesn't mean he did anything wrong or illegal.

If at all possible, you don't wait until somebody is pointing a gun at you before you fire. If you perceive a threat of your life, then you have the right to stop that threat with deadly force yourself.

So, the fact I know you are armed is justification to shoot you? I think not.

No, pulling it out while in front of a police officer is.

Wasn't it already out? Sorry, but the police officer was too quick to shoot. He had cover and the "suspect" wasn't pointing the gun at him. He had time to take control of the situation.

Three experienced police officers who testified agreed the situation was mishandled: How to Make a Police Shooting Disappear: The Tamir Rice Story

Nonetheless, extremists are all about "all or nothing". I know the anti-gun, anti-police mob is like that. I hope you aren't likewise. There are over 750,000 LEOs in this nation. Mistakes happen, but they shouldn't be covered up. They also shouldn't be extrapolated by a bunch of anti-gun and/or anti-cop assholes to mean one mistake applies to all concerned.

It's less a question of if it could have been handled better than the question of whether the officer did anything wrong or illegal. The jury found he didn't with the aid of the video tape.

The gun was out but not lifted at the officer yet. As soon as the officer seen the gun, he shot.

OJ and Robert Blake were found guiltless too.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

He might have been, but that doesn't mean he did anything wrong or illegal.

If at all possible, you don't wait until somebody is pointing a gun at you before you fire. If you perceive a threat of your life, then you have the right to stop that threat with deadly force yourself.

So, the fact I know you are armed is justification to shoot you? I think not.

No, pulling it out while in front of a police officer is.

Wasn't it already out? Sorry, but the police officer was too quick to shoot. He had cover and the "suspect" wasn't pointing the gun at him. He had time to take control of the situation.

Three experienced police officers who testified agreed the situation was mishandled: How to Make a Police Shooting Disappear: The Tamir Rice Story

Nonetheless, extremists are all about "all or nothing". I know the anti-gun, anti-police mob is like that. I hope you aren't likewise. There are over 750,000 LEOs in this nation. Mistakes happen, but they shouldn't be covered up. They also shouldn't be extrapolated by a bunch of anti-gun and/or anti-cop assholes to mean one mistake applies to all concerned.

It's less a question of if it could have been handled better than the question of whether the officer did anything wrong or illegal. The jury found he didn't with the aid of the video tape.

The gun was out but not lifted at the officer yet. As soon as the officer seen the gun, he shot.

OJ and Robert Blake were found guiltless too.

OJ and Blake didn't have a video of what took place. The officer did.

A jury does not rule base on their own personal likes or dislikes. A jury does not decide somebody is guilty if they could have done something different. A jury rules whether any laws were broken or not. When a suspect starts pulling a gun on a police officer and that officer responds with deadly force, that is completely legal for police officers and armed citizens alike.

This discussion reminds me of our CCW class. The instructor repeatedly made a point that no matter how good of a shot you are, it's different when it's your life on the line. You can be a good shot shooting at cardboard cutouts of people or pop cans because they are not shooting back. When a gun is pointed right back at you, adrenaline starts to flow, your mind races, you only have a second to think, you could be dead the next second.

Even with the best training, nobody is actually prepared for a real gun fight.

 

[Tom Horn]

Well, the kid's not listening. That's not new with 16 year old boys. If he had a Dad, you think it would be different? Not so sure. The kids like that I've worked with, if there's a Dad (or more likely a step-dad) in the house, he would have been kicked out a couple years ago already. That's how Dads handle it. Or don't.

LBJ's "great society" threw the family fathers out of the projects (prisons) with increased money to single mothers under the guise of "aid to dependent children". The fathers could come around for meals and sex but couldn't sleep there. So the family unit was destroyed and teen boys had no guidance. Detroit's black neighborhoods were thriving before they were torn down to build freeways for white shoppers to come in from the suburbs. It's what democrats do...dream shit up, throw billions of dollars at it, and when it doesn't work, blame Republicans for cutting off the money.

 

[2aguy]

He might have been, but that doesn't mean he did anything wrong or illegal.

If at all possible, you don't wait until somebody is pointing a gun at you before you fire. If you perceive a threat of your life, then you have the right to stop that threat with deadly force yourself.

So, the fact I know you are armed is justification to shoot you? I think not.

No, pulling it out while in front of a police officer is.

Wasn't it already out? Sorry, but the police officer was too quick to shoot. He had cover and the "suspect" wasn't pointing the gun at him. He had time to take control of the situation.

Three experienced police officers who testified agreed the situation was mishandled: How to Make a Police Shooting Disappear: The Tamir Rice Story

Nonetheless, extremists are all about "all or nothing". I know the anti-gun, anti-police mob is like that. I hope you aren't likewise. There are over 750,000 LEOs in this nation. Mistakes happen, but they shouldn't be covered up. They also shouldn't be extrapolated by a bunch of anti-gun and/or anti-cop assholes to mean one mistake applies to all concerned.

It's less a question of if it could have been handled better than the question of whether the officer did anything wrong or illegal. The jury found he didn't with the aid of the video tape.

The gun was out but not lifted at the officer yet. As soon as the officer seen the gun, he shot.

OJ and Robert Blake were found guiltless too.

To be fair....oj is looking for the killers...that is, once he gets out of prison....

 

[Divine Wind]

So, the fact I know you are armed is justification to shoot you? I think not.

No, pulling it out while in front of a police officer is.

Wasn't it already out? Sorry, but the police officer was too quick to shoot. He had cover and the "suspect" wasn't pointing the gun at him. He had time to take control of the situation.

Three experienced police officers who testified agreed the situation was mishandled: How to Make a Police Shooting Disappear: The Tamir Rice Story

Nonetheless, extremists are all about "all or nothing". I know the anti-gun, anti-police mob is like that. I hope you aren't likewise. There are over 750,000 LEOs in this nation. Mistakes happen, but they shouldn't be covered up. They also shouldn't be extrapolated by a bunch of anti-gun and/or anti-cop assholes to mean one mistake applies to all concerned.

It's less a question of if it could have been handled better than the question of whether the officer did anything wrong or illegal. The jury found he didn't with the aid of the video tape.

The gun was out but not lifted at the officer yet. As soon as the officer seen the gun, he shot.

OJ and Robert Blake were found guiltless too.

OJ and Blake didn't have a video of what took place. The officer did.

A jury does not rule base on their own personal likes or dislikes. A jury does not decide somebody is guilty if they could have done something different. A jury rules whether any laws were broken or not. When a suspect starts pulling a gun on a police officer and that officer responds with deadly force, that is completely legal for police officers and armed citizens alike.

This discussion reminds me of our CCW class. The instructor repeatedly made a point that no matter how good of a shot you are, it's different when it's your life on the line. You can be a good shot shooting at cardboard cutouts of people or pop cans because they are not shooting back. When a gun is pointed right back at you, adrenaline starts to flow, your mind races, you only have a second to think, you could be dead the next second.

Even with the best training, nobody is actually prepared for a real gun fight.

You are welcome to shoot black kids carrying BB guns and taking your chances with the jury.

The fact remains, those 3 experienced police officers agreed the situation was mishandled.

FWIW, in my CCW class, the point was made that shooting someone would change your life, the implication being not for the better. Defend yourself against attack, yes, but avoiding that situation is better. Good luck and I truly hope not to see you in the newspapers.