Gun Rights for those 17 - 21

[Ray From Cleveland]

Nobody ever had to defend themselves using alcohol.

What's the point you're trying to make?

Point is it's a bad comparison. Having a gun is a constitutional right, and taking that right away leaving people defenseless is much different than anything else like tobacco or alcohol. The main reason we fight so hard to keep gun rights is self-defense. In spite of my avatar, I'm more a big proponent of self-defense than firearms.

Having a gun can be regulated. I support lifting the age to 21 for owning a rifle.

Okay, so if we are now able to put age requirements on Constitutional rights, what would you say if Republicans increased the voting age to 21 too? After all, voting is a huge responsibility just like owning a rifle.

Abortions.......can't have one till you are 21....as left wing nutjobs love to do...let's quote Scalia....from Heller

Let's substitute Abortion....

Like most rights, the Abortion right is not unlimited. It is not a right to kill any baby whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose:

Like I told all Democrats on USMB. I'm willing to support an age increase in firearms if they will support my interest in raising the voting age. Nobody on the left wishes to discuss that. After all, if we can place age limitations on Constitutional rights, let's make it for all rights. In fact, I hope Trump's people come up with that plan. Have Congress increase the age of firearm ownership and voting. See how they squeal like pigs about that one.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes Ray, 17 kids being shot up and killed is fake news. Yes, we get it, you have no morals Ray.

You know when you lie, I'm going to call you out on it, so why do you do it all the time?

First one was a guy shooting up a school bus
Second was someone shot and killed at a university
Third was a pupil shooting someone in a cafeteria at school
Fourth was someone shooting from a truck at school pupils in school
Fifth was in the lobby at a school and two students died


That was January.

Which of these wasn't a school shooting Ray?

According to ABC News:

The organization defines a school shooting as "any time a firearm discharges a live round inside a school building or on a school campus or grounds."

In other words, this count also includes attempted or completed suicides and accidental discharges.

From the Washington Post about the study:

On the afternoon of Jan. 3, a 31-year-old man who had parked outside a Michigan elementary school called police to say he was armed and suicidal. Several hours later, he killed himself. The school, however, had been closedfor seven months. There were no teachers. There were no students.

from Jan. 20, when at 1 a.m. a man was shot at a sorority event on the campus of Wake Forest University. A week later, as a basketball game was being played at a Michigan high school, someone fired several rounds from a gun in the parking lot. No one was injured, and it was past 8 p.m., well after classes had ended for the day, but Everytown still labeled it a school shooting.

Just five of Everytown’s 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury. Three others appeared to be intentional shootings but did not hurt anyone. Two more involved guns — one carried by a school police officer and the other by a licensed peace officer who ran a college club — that were unintentionally fired and, again, led to no injuries. At least seven of Everytown’s 18 shootings took place outside normal school hours.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.2452770dd5d9

Fuck off Ray, you're the one who just makes stuff up. You haven't replied to your argument about diversity being the cause of violence, have you?

17 kids got killed in a school. It's not a lie Ray, it's the truth.

Yes, it is the truth. The lie is you implying that's what I was talking about. I never mentioned the Fla school shooting. I addressed that phony study you quoted from. I never once said the school shooting in Florida was BS. You lied and made it all up.

And I did address diversity. Maybe you just overlooked it because you didn't want to reply. Scroll up and see what I posted before making false accusations against me.

You know what Ray, every time I talk to you I think "how can it be so painful to talk to someone every single fucking time"

I'm done Ray, it's like arguing with a child. Really. I'm not saying this because I want to get at you, it's just how it is.

I'm going to stick you on the ignore list now. I should have done it ages ago but didn't.

 

[frigidweirdo]

If you are between the ages of 17 - 21 and are following all these gun control threads, there is something I would like you to consider. This isn't a debate, it's a political / legal reality so bear with me.

All of these retail establishments along with the president have decided that until you're 21 you should not own a firearm. What strikes me as odd here is that at 17 you can sign up and go into the military and defend this country, but it's another FOUR YEARS before the government thinks you ought to be able to defend your own life.

If you don't like that, you should urge all those in your age group to boycott the military until Uncle Scam gets his head out of his ..........

Virtually every election cycle when Republicans gain any power, the media and the Democrats sensationalize someone else's misery in order to sell gun control and force the Republicans to sign major gun legislation that ultimately accomplishes NOTHING.

* Under Reagan, he signed a bill to outlaw the future manufacture of fully autos for civilian use - and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA HAD DIED FROM A BULLET FIRED FROM A LEGAL FULL AUTO.
* Behind him was George Bush who banned the importation of foreign made semi-automatic firearms
* George W. Bush said he would have extended the AWB put into place by Clinton, but Congress did not give him that luxury
* Today a nitwit, double talking traitor has promised the Democrats the sun, the moon and the stars on the gun control issue - even advocating circumventing Due Process do it!!!

Every time there is a catastrophe, the Ds and Rs do their song and dance routine over gun control and every time it ends with the Ds getting compromises and more gun control. The problem is, IT DON'T SAVE LIVES.

None of the pabulum puking political propaganda prostitutes from EITHER side has informed you that IF the current laws had been followed, Adam Lanza (who committed the Sandy Hook murders) along with Nickolas Cruz would have been stopped BEFORE the carnage began. The laws were in place, but the cops didn't do their job; the county school system didn't do its job; the FBI didn't do their job. And yet NOBODY with the county faces accountability, the cop who turned tail and ran faces no accountability (Hell he gets to retire and draw a pension); the FBI gets off scott free! Why pass more laws if they don't use the current ones to prevent this crap?

Then they single out those between 17 and 21, the NRA, Republicans, conservatives and everyone else that IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. It is time for gun owners to go on the offensive and offer ways to address the issue without gun control and those of you 17 - 21 could boycott joining the armed forces until the gun control hysteria stops and the government holds those who allowed the mass shootings to happen be held accountable AND consider the proposals that would reduce gun violence without infringing on our Rights. No point in serving a country that won't serve you, but throw you under the bus instead of admitting what the world should know.

Had the government done their jobs under existing law, those children would still be alive. You should not be held accountable for the government's failure to simply do their job.

Well they banned them having alcohol too.... it's what the US does. These people think they're wise because they're older, and they're not.

Nobody ever had to defend themselves using alcohol.

What's the point you're trying to make?

Point is it's a bad comparison. Having a gun is a constitutional right, and taking that right away leaving people defenseless is much different than anything else like tobacco or alcohol. The main reason we fight so hard to keep gun rights is self-defense. In spite of my avatar, I'm more a big proponent of self-defense than firearms.

Having a gun can be regulated. I support lifting the age to 21 for owning a rifle.

Which then implies that owning a gun is a privilege and not a right.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Yes Ray, 17 kids being shot up and killed is fake news. Yes, we get it, you have no morals Ray.

You know when you lie, I'm going to call you out on it, so why do you do it all the time?

First one was a guy shooting up a school bus
Second was someone shot and killed at a university
Third was a pupil shooting someone in a cafeteria at school
Fourth was someone shooting from a truck at school pupils in school
Fifth was in the lobby at a school and two students died


That was January.

Which of these wasn't a school shooting Ray?

According to ABC News:

The organization defines a school shooting as "any time a firearm discharges a live round inside a school building or on a school campus or grounds."

In other words, this count also includes attempted or completed suicides and accidental discharges.

From the Washington Post about the study:

On the afternoon of Jan. 3, a 31-year-old man who had parked outside a Michigan elementary school called police to say he was armed and suicidal. Several hours later, he killed himself. The school, however, had been closedfor seven months. There were no teachers. There were no students.

from Jan. 20, when at 1 a.m. a man was shot at a sorority event on the campus of Wake Forest University. A week later, as a basketball game was being played at a Michigan high school, someone fired several rounds from a gun in the parking lot. No one was injured, and it was past 8 p.m., well after classes had ended for the day, but Everytown still labeled it a school shooting.

Just five of Everytown’s 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury. Three others appeared to be intentional shootings but did not hurt anyone. Two more involved guns — one carried by a school police officer and the other by a licensed peace officer who ran a college club — that were unintentionally fired and, again, led to no injuries. At least seven of Everytown’s 18 shootings took place outside normal school hours.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.2452770dd5d9

Fuck off Ray, you're the one who just makes stuff up. You haven't replied to your argument about diversity being the cause of violence, have you?

17 kids got killed in a school. It's not a lie Ray, it's the truth.

Yes, it is the truth. The lie is you implying that's what I was talking about. I never mentioned the Fla school shooting. I addressed that phony study you quoted from. I never once said the school shooting in Florida was BS. You lied and made it all up.

And I did address diversity. Maybe you just overlooked it because you didn't want to reply. Scroll up and see what I posted before making false accusations against me.

You know what Ray, every time I talk to you I think "how can it be so painful to talk to someone every single fucking time"

I'm done Ray, it's like arguing with a child. Really. I'm not saying this because I want to get at you, it's just how it is.

I'm going to stick you on the ignore list now. I should have done it ages ago but didn't.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Yes Ray, 17 kids being shot up and killed is fake news. Yes, we get it, you have no morals Ray.

You know when you lie, I'm going to call you out on it, so why do you do it all the time?

First one was a guy shooting up a school bus
Second was someone shot and killed at a university
Third was a pupil shooting someone in a cafeteria at school
Fourth was someone shooting from a truck at school pupils in school
Fifth was in the lobby at a school and two students died


That was January.

Which of these wasn't a school shooting Ray?

According to ABC News:

The organization defines a school shooting as "any time a firearm discharges a live round inside a school building or on a school campus or grounds."

In other words, this count also includes attempted or completed suicides and accidental discharges.

From the Washington Post about the study:

On the afternoon of Jan. 3, a 31-year-old man who had parked outside a Michigan elementary school called police to say he was armed and suicidal. Several hours later, he killed himself. The school, however, had been closedfor seven months. There were no teachers. There were no students.

from Jan. 20, when at 1 a.m. a man was shot at a sorority event on the campus of Wake Forest University. A week later, as a basketball game was being played at a Michigan high school, someone fired several rounds from a gun in the parking lot. No one was injured, and it was past 8 p.m., well after classes had ended for the day, but Everytown still labeled it a school shooting.

Just five of Everytown’s 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury. Three others appeared to be intentional shootings but did not hurt anyone. Two more involved guns — one carried by a school police officer and the other by a licensed peace officer who ran a college club — that were unintentionally fired and, again, led to no injuries. At least seven of Everytown’s 18 shootings took place outside normal school hours.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.2452770dd5d9

Fuck off Ray, you're the one who just makes stuff up. You haven't replied to your argument about diversity being the cause of violence, have you?

17 kids got killed in a school. It's not a lie Ray, it's the truth.

Yes, it is the truth. The lie is you implying that's what I was talking about. I never mentioned the Fla school shooting. I addressed that phony study you quoted from. I never once said the school shooting in Florida was BS. You lied and made it all up.

And I did address diversity. Maybe you just overlooked it because you didn't want to reply. Scroll up and see what I posted before making false accusations against me.

You know what Ray, every time I talk to you I think "how can it be so painful to talk to someone every single fucking time"

I'm done Ray, it's like arguing with a child. Really. I'm not saying this because I want to get at you, it's just how it is.

I'm going to stick you on the ignore list now. I should have done it ages ago but didn't.

i am sure it hurts your feelings

--LOL

 

[Humorme]

If you are between the ages of 17 - 21 and are following all these gun control threads, there is something I would like you to consider. This isn't a debate, it's a political / legal reality so bear with me.

All of these retail establishments along with the president have decided that until you're 21 you should not own a firearm. What strikes me as odd here is that at 17 you can sign up and go into the military and defend this country, but it's another FOUR YEARS before the government thinks you ought to be able to defend your own life.

If you don't like that, you should urge all those in your age group to boycott the military until Uncle Scam gets his head out of his ..........

Virtually every election cycle when Republicans gain any power, the media and the Democrats sensationalize someone else's misery in order to sell gun control and force the Republicans to sign major gun legislation that ultimately accomplishes NOTHING.

* Under Reagan, he signed a bill to outlaw the future manufacture of fully autos for civilian use - and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA HAD DIED FROM A BULLET FIRED FROM A LEGAL FULL AUTO.
* Behind him was George Bush who banned the importation of foreign made semi-automatic firearms
* George W. Bush said he would have extended the AWB put into place by Clinton, but Congress did not give him that luxury
* Today a nitwit, double talking traitor has promised the Democrats the sun, the moon and the stars on the gun control issue - even advocating circumventing Due Process do it!!!

Every time there is a catastrophe, the Ds and Rs do their song and dance routine over gun control and every time it ends with the Ds getting compromises and more gun control. The problem is, IT DON'T SAVE LIVES.

None of the pabulum puking political propaganda prostitutes from EITHER side has informed you that IF the current laws had been followed, Adam Lanza (who committed the Sandy Hook murders) along with Nickolas Cruz would have been stopped BEFORE the carnage began. The laws were in place, but the cops didn't do their job; the county school system didn't do its job; the FBI didn't do their job. And yet NOBODY with the county faces accountability, the cop who turned tail and ran faces no accountability (Hell he gets to retire and draw a pension); the FBI gets off scott free! Why pass more laws if they don't use the current ones to prevent this crap?

Then they single out those between 17 and 21, the NRA, Republicans, conservatives and everyone else that IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. It is time for gun owners to go on the offensive and offer ways to address the issue without gun control and those of you 17 - 21 could boycott joining the armed forces until the gun control hysteria stops and the government holds those who allowed the mass shootings to happen be held accountable AND consider the proposals that would reduce gun violence without infringing on our Rights. No point in serving a country that won't serve you, but throw you under the bus instead of admitting what the world should know.

Had the government done their jobs under existing law, those children would still be alive. You should not be held accountable for the government's failure to simply do their job.

Well they banned them having alcohol too.... it's what the US does. These people think they're wise because they're older, and they're not.

The right to keep and drink alcohol... which Amendment is that?

Where's the right to breathe air? Or the right to watch TV too?

When Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence. It specifically states that:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

A lot can be gleaned from that.

Some Rights are unalienable (literally above the government's jurisdiction.) That is what unalienable means. So, these Rights, given by a Creator (your God, whomever you deem that be) bestows upon you both Liberty and LIFE... and the founders were not shy about the way they felt regarding your Right to defend your life.

Liberty is the ability to do things that do not bring harm to another. Owning a firearm, does not in and of itself bring harm to another human being. Neither does the firearm. However, when you put people on the streets that you KNOW pose a danger to others, you're an idiot. And I'm personally not going to be penalized for the idiocy of politicians that don't want to take nutjobs off the streets and put them into a place where they receive supervised care.

The Declaration of Independence is a political – not legal – document; it has no bearing on Constitutional case law or the rights and liberties it protects.

Constitutional case law does maintain, however, that all acts and measures of government are afforded a presumption of constitutionality until such time as the Supreme Court rules otherwise (US v. Morrison (2000)).

Your ‘issue’ is a non-issue until such time as a state or the Federal government actually prohibits those under 21 from possessing a firearm and they file suit in Federal court to seek relief.

“The Declaration of Independence...[is the] declaratory charter of our rights, and of the rights of man.” — Thomas Jefferson, 1819

In Cotting v. Godard, 183 U.S. 79 (1901) the United States Supreme Court said “ while such declaration of principles may not have the effect of organic law, or be made the basis of judicial decisions as to the limits of of rights and duty and while in all cases reference must be had to the organic law of the nation for such limits, yet the latter is but the body and the letter of which the former is the thought and spirit, and it is always safe to read the letter of the Constitution in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence”.

. Our foundational principles clearly state that:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." (an excerpt from the Declaration of Independence)

Today the Courts tell us it is always safe to read the letter of the Constitution in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. The spirit of the Declaration of Independence was at odds with the English Crown. We are, most likely, the only nation on this planet that acknowledges God given, natural, unalienable, inherent Rights that are absolutely guaranteed in the Bill of Rights.

Justice Joseph Story (of the United States Supreme Court) was nominated by the Father of the Bill of Rights. He was the MOST QUALIFIED of any jurist out there to tell us what the Second Amendment is all about. He wrote:

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."

Story did not say the Right was granted by the federal government; never insinuated the Right was about a state's right to maintain a militia, nor does it say anything about the government having the authority to disarm Americans on an incremental basis. Now, what is it you don't understand?

 

[Humorme]

The right to keep and drink alcohol... which Amendment is that?

Where's the right to breathe air? Or the right to watch TV too?

When Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence. It specifically states that:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

A lot can be gleaned from that.

Some Rights are unalienable (literally above the government's jurisdiction.) That is what unalienable means. So, these Rights, given by a Creator (your God, whomever you deem that be) bestows upon you both Liberty and LIFE... and the founders were not shy about the way they felt regarding your Right to defend your life.

Liberty is the ability to do things that do not bring harm to another. Owning a firearm, does not in and of itself bring harm to another human being. Neither does the firearm. However, when you put people on the streets that you KNOW pose a danger to others, you're an idiot. And I'm personally not going to be penalized for the idiocy of politicians that don't want to take nutjobs off the streets and put them into a place where they receive supervised care.

And they also implemented a way of changing the Constitution because they knew things would change.

They didn't have ten school shootings in a month back then.

Again, George Washington answered you:

" If in the opinion of the People, the distribution or modification of the Constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed." George Washington Farewell Address 1795

So, the legal, constitutional and proper way to get what you want is to amend the Constitution, NOT turn the courts loose to be your legislator. What's so hard to understand about that?

The things you're bitching about today could have been prevented HAD THE GOVERNMENT DONE THEIR DAMN JOB. They've had the tools, the laws, and the manpower. WTH is keeping them from using it? And what does ANY of that have to do with the OP?

Listen, I'm not arguing against what the Founding Fathers said.

Times were different back then and they made the Constitution flexible for a reason. That reason was that times would change and the needs of the people would be different.

Back then the US struggled to make an army. Back then dictators were the norm. Back then most people couldn't read or right, and most people didn't have the vote. Different times. Slavery was considered acceptable, it was a part of the US. That doesn't mean the US should have it now, does it?

You can always amend the Constitution, NOT throw it under the bus with an illegal / unconstitutional act.

For me, this is simple:

Ever since the first time I voted in a presidential election, when the Republicans got in office, the liberals forced them to compromise on gun control measures. There was Reagan with his major attack on the Second Amendment. Then George Bush burned his NRA membership card (after taking their money) and banned semi-automatic imports. Bush # II was willing to reinstate the AWB despite the FACT that it did not reduce crime or shootings. On and on the game has gone on, unchallenged. What we've accomplished is tor reduce the Republic into a socialistic democracy.

While the left keeps lying about what this is really about, I'm saying this:

IF this discussion is about saving lives, then join with me and let's talk about the facts. Let's ask why we allow the criminally insane to run amok in a free society. Let's talk about the fact that for every mentally ill person in a mental institution, we have more than TEN mentally ill people in prison and when they are let out, they are more screwed up than when they went in.

Let's take about the fact that is the mentally ill who are never properly treated being the ones who commit mass shootings while the dullards keep blaming the Second Amendment.

Let's talk about the fact that the laws and controls are in place, but the system does not do their job. With the latest mass shooting, the county government did not do their job; the state did not do their job; the LEO community was absent and asleep despite the reports, complaints and the obvious warning signs after going to this guy's home repeatedly. Why are we not talking about the cop who was allowed to retire and draw a full pension? How come we are giving the FBI a free pass for sitting on their backsides and DOING NOTHING?

Every time I try to have a thread about preventative measures, we have the liberals trying to make the damn thread about a referendum on gun control. Adding insult to injury, I was working on this issue BEFORE Sandy Hook, BEFORE Lakeland, Florida. I was lobbying for the issues I brought up here a full week BEFORE Nickolas Cruz. I remain convinced that the left has no empathy and don't give two hoots in Hell about saving lives. And I'm sick and tired of the Republicans who refuse to get involved, go on the offensive and get to the root of the problem (summed up in this post.)

I know... TLDR. THAT is why we're in this shape. This time, I'm just as determined to stop crazed killers BEFORE they strike as much as the left is determined to take peoples firearms. You're not going to win that battle in my lifetime, so you are always welcome to join me in getting preventative measures in place and stop the killing BEFORE it starts. OR, you can ignore my pleas and make this a never ending referendum. Would you, as a father rather win in a popularity poll OR work for a solution we could all live with?

This time I'm speaking to those 17 - 21 years of age because the media, the left, and anti-gunners want to marginalize them and take their Rights without bothering to even have a discussion about who has been responsible for the mass shootings. Firearms are no more to blame than a car is responsible for the drunk who wrecks and kills an entire family.

 

[Humorme]

Yes Ray, 17 kids being shot up and killed is fake news. Yes, we get it, you have no morals Ray.

You know when you lie, I'm going to call you out on it, so why do you do it all the time?

First one was a guy shooting up a school bus
Second was someone shot and killed at a university
Third was a pupil shooting someone in a cafeteria at school
Fourth was someone shooting from a truck at school pupils in school
Fifth was in the lobby at a school and two students died


That was January.

Which of these wasn't a school shooting Ray?

According to ABC News:

The organization defines a school shooting as "any time a firearm discharges a live round inside a school building or on a school campus or grounds."

In other words, this count also includes attempted or completed suicides and accidental discharges.

From the Washington Post about the study:

On the afternoon of Jan. 3, a 31-year-old man who had parked outside a Michigan elementary school called police to say he was armed and suicidal. Several hours later, he killed himself. The school, however, had been closedfor seven months. There were no teachers. There were no students.

from Jan. 20, when at 1 a.m. a man was shot at a sorority event on the campus of Wake Forest University. A week later, as a basketball game was being played at a Michigan high school, someone fired several rounds from a gun in the parking lot. No one was injured, and it was past 8 p.m., well after classes had ended for the day, but Everytown still labeled it a school shooting.

Just five of Everytown’s 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury. Three others appeared to be intentional shootings but did not hurt anyone. Two more involved guns — one carried by a school police officer and the other by a licensed peace officer who ran a college club — that were unintentionally fired and, again, led to no injuries. At least seven of Everytown’s 18 shootings took place outside normal school hours.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.2452770dd5d9

Fuck off Ray, you're the one who just makes stuff up. You haven't replied to your argument about diversity being the cause of violence, have you?

17 kids got killed in a school. It's not a lie Ray, it's the truth.

Yes, it is the truth. The lie is you implying that's what I was talking about. I never mentioned the Fla school shooting. I addressed that phony study you quoted from. I never once said the school shooting in Florida was BS. You lied and made it all up.

And I did address diversity. Maybe you just overlooked it because you didn't want to reply. Scroll up and see what I posted before making false accusations against me.

This is why there can be no "compromie" with anti gunners....they won't even tell the truth in simple discussions of these issues....not one of them. I can't remember one anti gunner who ever told the truth about guns and gun issues......

Not one more gun, bullet or magazine.....we fight for all of them now...

I know my posts are TLDR, but I am with you. If you'd take the time to read my posts, we're going to have a conversation, not a one sided lynching for a change. This time the left needs to listen, read and consider what I'm bringing to the table.

While they are busy trying to outlaw weapons, there are probably a million people downloading blueprints and using 3d technology to build their own firearms. Their effort is in vain. They cannot turn back the clock on technology. And when the left tries to pursue the gun owners, the druggies, the undocumented immigrants, Muslims, and everybody else with a beef against the U.S, will get ignored. With more people in prison than any country on this planet, this would be the absolute END for the Republic.

But, here I make my stand. If the left wants some action, I have some solutions. They're compromising with us or they are signing America's death warrant as this fight will take away necessary resources from the real problem. America will fall if the left don't take heed to my warning.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Where's the right to breathe air? Or the right to watch TV too?

When Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence. It specifically states that:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

A lot can be gleaned from that.

Some Rights are unalienable (literally above the government's jurisdiction.) That is what unalienable means. So, these Rights, given by a Creator (your God, whomever you deem that be) bestows upon you both Liberty and LIFE... and the founders were not shy about the way they felt regarding your Right to defend your life.

Liberty is the ability to do things that do not bring harm to another. Owning a firearm, does not in and of itself bring harm to another human being. Neither does the firearm. However, when you put people on the streets that you KNOW pose a danger to others, you're an idiot. And I'm personally not going to be penalized for the idiocy of politicians that don't want to take nutjobs off the streets and put them into a place where they receive supervised care.

And they also implemented a way of changing the Constitution because they knew things would change.

They didn't have ten school shootings in a month back then.

Again, George Washington answered you:

" If in the opinion of the People, the distribution or modification of the Constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed." George Washington Farewell Address 1795

So, the legal, constitutional and proper way to get what you want is to amend the Constitution, NOT turn the courts loose to be your legislator. What's so hard to understand about that?

The things you're bitching about today could have been prevented HAD THE GOVERNMENT DONE THEIR DAMN JOB. They've had the tools, the laws, and the manpower. WTH is keeping them from using it? And what does ANY of that have to do with the OP?

Listen, I'm not arguing against what the Founding Fathers said.

Times were different back then and they made the Constitution flexible for a reason. That reason was that times would change and the needs of the people would be different.

Back then the US struggled to make an army. Back then dictators were the norm. Back then most people couldn't read or right, and most people didn't have the vote. Different times. Slavery was considered acceptable, it was a part of the US. That doesn't mean the US should have it now, does it?

You can always amend the Constitution, NOT throw it under the bus with an illegal / unconstitutional act.

For me, this is simple:

Ever since the first time I voted in a presidential election, when the Republicans got in office, the liberals forced them to compromise on gun control measures. There was Reagan with his major attack on the Second Amendment. Then George Bush burned his NRA membership card (after taking their money) and banned semi-automatic imports. Bush # II was willing to reinstate the AWB despite the FACT that it did not reduce crime or shootings. On and on the game has gone on, unchallenged. What we've accomplished is tor reduce the Republic into a socialistic democracy.

While the left keeps lying about what this is really about, I'm saying this:

IF this discussion is about saving lives, then join with me and let's talk about the facts. Let's ask why we allow the criminally insane to run amok in a free society. Let's talk about the fact that for every mentally ill person in a mental institution, we have more than TEN mentally ill people in prison and when they are let out, they are more screwed up than when they went in.

Let's take about the fact that is the mentally ill who are never properly treated being the ones who commit mass shootings while the dullards keep blaming the Second Amendment.

Let's talk about the fact that the laws and controls are in place, but the system does not do their job. With the latest mass shooting, the county government did not do their job; the state did not do their job; the LEO community was absent and asleep despite the reports, complaints and the obvious warning signs after going to this guy's home repeatedly. Why are we not talking about the cop who was allowed to retire and draw a full pension? How come we are giving the FBI a free pass for sitting on their backsides and DOING NOTHING?

Every time I try to have a thread about preventative measures, we have the liberals trying to make the damn thread about a referendum on gun control. Adding insult to injury, I was working on this issue BEFORE Sandy Hook, BEFORE Lakeland, Florida. I was lobbying for the issues I brought up here a full week BEFORE Nickolas Cruz. I remain convinced that the left has no empathy and don't give two hoots in Hell about saving lives. And I'm sick and tired of the Republicans who refuse to get involved, go on the offensive and get to the root of the problem (summed up in this post.)

I know... TLDR. THAT is why we're in this shape. This time, I'm just as determined to stop crazed killers BEFORE they strike as much as the left is determined to take peoples firearms. You're not going to win that battle in my lifetime, so you are always welcome to join me in getting preventative measures in place and stop the killing BEFORE it starts. OR, you can ignore my pleas and make this a never ending referendum. Would you, as a father rather win in a popularity poll OR work for a solution we could all live with?

This time I'm speaking to those 17 - 21 years of age because the media, the left, and anti-gunners want to marginalize them and take their Rights without bothering to even have a discussion about who has been responsible for the mass shootings. Firearms are no more to blame than a car is responsible for the drunk who wrecks and kills an entire family.

Yes, you can amend the Constitution. But the way the gun people make it out, you can't do that either.

Throwing it under the bus would imply that people know what it actually means, and in my experience a lot of people will twist the meaning to fit their own agenda, on both sides.

We can talk about facts.

The facts are 4 times more people die in the US than in other First World countries from murder.

Also the US's murder rate is 3/4 gun murders.

We can talk about mental illness and why the US doesn't really deal with it effectively. Why prisons are used as places to hide those with mental problems away from society.

We can talk about education too, and why it's severely lacking.

We can also talk about how none of this is ever going to change. Firstly because the political system is so broken that only two parties ever get in and they're so corrupt that they've legitimized this corruption. Secondly that the voters don't bother to vote properly and many of them reinforce the problems in society.

Yes, we can talk all of this. But nothing will ever change, and the more shootings take place in schools and the like, the more people are going to go after guns, because those who want to keep their guns aren't willing to change society in the manner necessary to stop the killings without taking away the guns. So guns will continue to be a target.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You know when you lie, I'm going to call you out on it, so why do you do it all the time?

According to ABC News:

The organization defines a school shooting as "any time a firearm discharges a live round inside a school building or on a school campus or grounds."

In other words, this count also includes attempted or completed suicides and accidental discharges.

From the Washington Post about the study:

On the afternoon of Jan. 3, a 31-year-old man who had parked outside a Michigan elementary school called police to say he was armed and suicidal. Several hours later, he killed himself. The school, however, had been closedfor seven months. There were no teachers. There were no students.

from Jan. 20, when at 1 a.m. a man was shot at a sorority event on the campus of Wake Forest University. A week later, as a basketball game was being played at a Michigan high school, someone fired several rounds from a gun in the parking lot. No one was injured, and it was past 8 p.m., well after classes had ended for the day, but Everytown still labeled it a school shooting.

Just five of Everytown’s 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury. Three others appeared to be intentional shootings but did not hurt anyone. Two more involved guns — one carried by a school police officer and the other by a licensed peace officer who ran a college club — that were unintentionally fired and, again, led to no injuries. At least seven of Everytown’s 18 shootings took place outside normal school hours.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.2452770dd5d9

Fuck off Ray, you're the one who just makes stuff up. You haven't replied to your argument about diversity being the cause of violence, have you?

17 kids got killed in a school. It's not a lie Ray, it's the truth.

Yes, it is the truth. The lie is you implying that's what I was talking about. I never mentioned the Fla school shooting. I addressed that phony study you quoted from. I never once said the school shooting in Florida was BS. You lied and made it all up.

And I did address diversity. Maybe you just overlooked it because you didn't want to reply. Scroll up and see what I posted before making false accusations against me.

You know what Ray, every time I talk to you I think "how can it be so painful to talk to someone every single fucking time"

I'm done Ray, it's like arguing with a child. Really. I'm not saying this because I want to get at you, it's just how it is.

I'm going to stick you on the ignore list now. I should have done it ages ago but didn't.

i am sure it hurts your feelings

--LOL

It wasn't the first night I lost sleep.

You have to love the people who lose an argument and then get all boo-boo faced. I guess they only come here to discuss issues they can agree or win on. I think he's the fourth leftist to claim I'm on ignore.

I've been here for a couple of years now, and I think I have two people on ignore. One because of the non-stop personal insults, and the other said he put me on ignore so it made no sense to keep reading his posts since he is a pretty active member here.

I don't have anybody on ignore because I lost a debate or they proved me wrong. If that was the case, I'd find something better to do with my time. After all, the reason I come here IS to debate. When I lose one, I learn something at the same time in most cases.

 

[Flash]

What's the point you're trying to make?

Point is it's a bad comparison. Having a gun is a constitutional right, and taking that right away leaving people defenseless is much different than anything else like tobacco or alcohol. The main reason we fight so hard to keep gun rights is self-defense. In spite of my avatar, I'm more a big proponent of self-defense than firearms.

Having a gun can be regulated. I support lifting the age to 21 for owning a rifle.

Okay, so if we are now able to put age requirements on Constitutional rights, what would you say if Republicans increased the voting age to 21 too? After all, voting is a huge responsibility just like owning a rifle.

Abortions.......can't have one till you are 21....as left wing nutjobs love to do...let's quote Scalia....from Heller

Let's substitute Abortion....

Like most rights, the Abortion right is not unlimited. It is not a right to kill any baby whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose:

Like I told all Democrats on USMB. I'm willing to support an age increase in firearms if they will support my interest in raising the voting age. Nobody on the left wishes to discuss that. After all, if we can place age limitations on Constitutional rights, let's make it for all rights. In fact, I hope Trump's people come up with that plan. Have Congress increase the age of firearm ownership and voting. See how they squeal like pigs about that one.

These Moon Bats only want to restrict the stupid things they want, like the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

They would cry like a little school girl if we tried to restrict other rights.

If an American can't be trusted with the right to keep and bear arms (which is protected in the Constitution) what the hell is that person doing driving a car or electing government officials?

You are correct. If we are going to deprive that age group of the right to defend themselves then they sure as hell don't need to be voting.

Just think how many elections these Moon Bats would lose if they didn't have the vote of the confused college kids that had been brainwashed by their Marxist professors that Communism would work if we just gave it one more chance.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Point is it's a bad comparison. Having a gun is a constitutional right, and taking that right away leaving people defenseless is much different than anything else like tobacco or alcohol. The main reason we fight so hard to keep gun rights is self-defense. In spite of my avatar, I'm more a big proponent of self-defense than firearms.

Having a gun can be regulated. I support lifting the age to 21 for owning a rifle.

Okay, so if we are now able to put age requirements on Constitutional rights, what would you say if Republicans increased the voting age to 21 too? After all, voting is a huge responsibility just like owning a rifle.

Abortions.......can't have one till you are 21....as left wing nutjobs love to do...let's quote Scalia....from Heller

Let's substitute Abortion....

Like most rights, the Abortion right is not unlimited. It is not a right to kill any baby whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose:

Like I told all Democrats on USMB. I'm willing to support an age increase in firearms if they will support my interest in raising the voting age. Nobody on the left wishes to discuss that. After all, if we can place age limitations on Constitutional rights, let's make it for all rights. In fact, I hope Trump's people come up with that plan. Have Congress increase the age of firearm ownership and voting. See how they squeal like pigs about that one.

These Moon Bats only want to restrict the stupid things they want, like the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

They would cry like a little school girl if we tried to restrict other rights.

If an American can't be trusted with the right to keep and bear arms (which is protected in the Constitution) what the hell is that person doing driving a car or electing government officials?

You are correct. If we are going to deprive that age group of the right to defend themselves then they sure as hell don't need to be voting.

Just think how many elections these Moon Bats would lose if they didn't have the vote of the confused college kids that had been brainwashed by their Marxist professors that Communism would work if we just gave it one more chance.

That's why none of them responded to my idea. I posted it in various places. Crickets.

Of course they know they'd lose every election if we only allowed adults with some adult experience in life to vote. They heavily rely on the politically ignorant and inexperienced to win elections. Many of their voters are lazy and won't vote if it's the least bit inconvenient. So they made Voter-ID into a race issue thus covering up their real fears.

Democrats don't like to compromise. They want it their way only.

 

[Darkwind]

If you are between the ages of 17 - 21 and are following all these gun control threads, there is something I would like you to consider. This isn't a debate, it's a political / legal reality so bear with me.

All of these retail establishments along with the president have decided that until you're 21 you should not own a firearm. What strikes me as odd here is that at 17 you can sign up and go into the military and defend this country, but it's another FOUR YEARS before the government thinks you ought to be able to defend your own life.

If you don't like that, you should urge all those in your age group to boycott the military until Uncle Scam gets his head out of his ..........

Virtually every election cycle when Republicans gain any power, the media and the Democrats sensationalize someone else's misery in order to sell gun control and force the Republicans to sign major gun legislation that ultimately accomplishes NOTHING.

* Under Reagan, he signed a bill to outlaw the future manufacture of fully autos for civilian use - and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA HAD DIED FROM A BULLET FIRED FROM A LEGAL FULL AUTO.
* Behind him was George Bush who banned the importation of foreign made semi-automatic firearms
* George W. Bush said he would have extended the AWB put into place by Clinton, but Congress did not give him that luxury
* Today a nitwit, double talking traitor has promised the Democrats the sun, the moon and the stars on the gun control issue - even advocating circumventing Due Process do it!!!

Every time there is a catastrophe, the Ds and Rs do their song and dance routine over gun control and every time it ends with the Ds getting compromises and more gun control. The problem is, IT DON'T SAVE LIVES.

None of the pabulum puking political propaganda prostitutes from EITHER side has informed you that IF the current laws had been followed, Adam Lanza (who committed the Sandy Hook murders) along with Nickolas Cruz would have been stopped BEFORE the carnage began. The laws were in place, but the cops didn't do their job; the county school system didn't do its job; the FBI didn't do their job. And yet NOBODY with the county faces accountability, the cop who turned tail and ran faces no accountability (Hell he gets to retire and draw a pension); the FBI gets off scott free! Why pass more laws if they don't use the current ones to prevent this crap?

Then they single out those between 17 and 21, the NRA, Republicans, conservatives and everyone else that IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. It is time for gun owners to go on the offensive and offer ways to address the issue without gun control and those of you 17 - 21 could boycott joining the armed forces until the gun control hysteria stops and the government holds those who allowed the mass shootings to happen be held accountable AND consider the proposals that would reduce gun violence without infringing on our Rights. No point in serving a country that won't serve you, but throw you under the bus instead of admitting what the world should know.

Had the government done their jobs under existing law, those children would still be alive. You should not be held accountable for the government's failure to simply do their job.

Since it’s difficult to discern from your word-salad of a post the ‘point’ you’re trying to make, we’re forced to assume that you believe prohibiting 18 to 20-year-olds from possessing firearms ‘violates’ the Second Amendment.

If that’s the case, then of course you’re wrong.

The Supreme Court has never ruled on the constitutionality of age limits with regard to possessing a firearm, and until it does, such measures would be consistent with the Second Amendment.

Do you know or even understand why you are such an imbicile?

How many 15,16,17,17,19,or 20-year-olds will not own weapons simply because the States or the Feds decide to say they can't?

 

[jon_berzerk]

Fuck off Ray, you're the one who just makes stuff up. You haven't replied to your argument about diversity being the cause of violence, have you?

17 kids got killed in a school. It's not a lie Ray, it's the truth.

Yes, it is the truth. The lie is you implying that's what I was talking about. I never mentioned the Fla school shooting. I addressed that phony study you quoted from. I never once said the school shooting in Florida was BS. You lied and made it all up.

And I did address diversity. Maybe you just overlooked it because you didn't want to reply. Scroll up and see what I posted before making false accusations against me.

You know what Ray, every time I talk to you I think "how can it be so painful to talk to someone every single fucking time"

I'm done Ray, it's like arguing with a child. Really. I'm not saying this because I want to get at you, it's just how it is.

I'm going to stick you on the ignore list now. I should have done it ages ago but didn't.

i am sure it hurts your feelings

--LOL

It wasn't the first night I lost sleep.

You have to love the people who lose an argument and then get all boo-boo faced. I guess they only come here to discuss issues they can agree or win on. I think he's the fourth leftist to claim I'm on ignore.

I've been here for a couple of years now, and I think I have two people on ignore. One because of the non-stop personal insults, and the other said he put me on ignore so it made no sense to keep reading his posts since he is a pretty active member here.

I don't have anybody on ignore because I lost a debate or they proved me wrong. If that was the case, I'd find something better to do with my time. After all, the reason I come here IS to debate. When I lose one, I learn something at the same time in most cases.

You have to love the people who lose an argument and then get all boo-boo faced.

you see it all the time with these leftists on this board makes ya wonder how many are socks

cant be that many low functioning leftists but then again --LOL

as for ignore i put the repetitively willfully ignorant on ignore

they eventually show up under another id --LOL

sad life some of these leftards must have to say the least

 

[dannyboys]

What's the point you're trying to make?

Point is it's a bad comparison. Having a gun is a constitutional right, and taking that right away leaving people defenseless is much different than anything else like tobacco or alcohol. The main reason we fight so hard to keep gun rights is self-defense. In spite of my avatar, I'm more a big proponent of self-defense than firearms.

Having a gun can be regulated. I support lifting the age to 21 for owning a rifle.

Okay, so if we are now able to put age requirements on Constitutional rights, what would you say if Republicans increased the voting age to 21 too? After all, voting is a huge responsibility just like owning a rifle.

Abortions.......can't have one till you are 21....as left wing nutjobs love to do...let's quote Scalia....from Heller

Let's substitute Abortion....

Like most rights, the Abortion right is not unlimited. It is not a right to kill any baby whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose:

Like I told all Democrats on USMB. I'm willing to support an age increase in firearms if they will support my interest in raising the voting age. Nobody on the left wishes to discuss that. After all, if we can place age limitations on Constitutional rights, let's make it for all rights. In fact, I hope Trump's people come up with that plan. Have Congress increase the age of firearm ownership and voting. See how they squeal like pigs about that one.

But there are 'Harvard' professors who are advocating the voting age should be 16 years old.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Point is it's a bad comparison. Having a gun is a constitutional right, and taking that right away leaving people defenseless is much different than anything else like tobacco or alcohol. The main reason we fight so hard to keep gun rights is self-defense. In spite of my avatar, I'm more a big proponent of self-defense than firearms.

Having a gun can be regulated. I support lifting the age to 21 for owning a rifle.

Okay, so if we are now able to put age requirements on Constitutional rights, what would you say if Republicans increased the voting age to 21 too? After all, voting is a huge responsibility just like owning a rifle.

Abortions.......can't have one till you are 21....as left wing nutjobs love to do...let's quote Scalia....from Heller

Let's substitute Abortion....

Like most rights, the Abortion right is not unlimited. It is not a right to kill any baby whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose:

Like I told all Democrats on USMB. I'm willing to support an age increase in firearms if they will support my interest in raising the voting age. Nobody on the left wishes to discuss that. After all, if we can place age limitations on Constitutional rights, let's make it for all rights. In fact, I hope Trump's people come up with that plan. Have Congress increase the age of firearm ownership and voting. See how they squeal like pigs about that one.

But there are 'Harvard' professors who are advocating the voting age should be 16 years old.

if they are not old enough to have all rights some rights

then they are not old enough for any rights

hey obama set the standard age of adulthood to 26 under the obamacares act

raise the age of majority to 26

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Point is it's a bad comparison. Having a gun is a constitutional right, and taking that right away leaving people defenseless is much different than anything else like tobacco or alcohol. The main reason we fight so hard to keep gun rights is self-defense. In spite of my avatar, I'm more a big proponent of self-defense than firearms.

Having a gun can be regulated. I support lifting the age to 21 for owning a rifle.

Okay, so if we are now able to put age requirements on Constitutional rights, what would you say if Republicans increased the voting age to 21 too? After all, voting is a huge responsibility just like owning a rifle.

Abortions.......can't have one till you are 21....as left wing nutjobs love to do...let's quote Scalia....from Heller

Let's substitute Abortion....

Like most rights, the Abortion right is not unlimited. It is not a right to kill any baby whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose:

Like I told all Democrats on USMB. I'm willing to support an age increase in firearms if they will support my interest in raising the voting age. Nobody on the left wishes to discuss that. After all, if we can place age limitations on Constitutional rights, let's make it for all rights. In fact, I hope Trump's people come up with that plan. Have Congress increase the age of firearm ownership and voting. See how they squeal like pigs about that one.

But there are 'Harvard' professors who are advocating the voting age should be 16 years old.

Of course they are. I'm sure they stand behind Hillary's idea of allowing prisoners to vote as well. Some states are now allowing convicted felons to vote. Any vote is a good vote as far as Democrats are concerned. That's why they pull hobos off of train tracks to vote in close elections.

After all, how many of us knew squat about politics when we were 16? All we knew is what the liberal teachers told us.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Having a gun can be regulated. I support lifting the age to 21 for owning a rifle.

Okay, so if we are now able to put age requirements on Constitutional rights, what would you say if Republicans increased the voting age to 21 too? After all, voting is a huge responsibility just like owning a rifle.

Abortions.......can't have one till you are 21....as left wing nutjobs love to do...let's quote Scalia....from Heller

Let's substitute Abortion....

Like most rights, the Abortion right is not unlimited. It is not a right to kill any baby whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose:

Like I told all Democrats on USMB. I'm willing to support an age increase in firearms if they will support my interest in raising the voting age. Nobody on the left wishes to discuss that. After all, if we can place age limitations on Constitutional rights, let's make it for all rights. In fact, I hope Trump's people come up with that plan. Have Congress increase the age of firearm ownership and voting. See how they squeal like pigs about that one.

But there are 'Harvard' professors who are advocating the voting age should be 16 years old.

Of course they are. I'm sure they stand behind Hillary's idea of allowing prisoners to vote as well. Some states are now allowing convicted felons to vote. Any vote is a good vote as far as Democrats are concerned. That's why they pull hobos off of train tracks to vote in close elections.

After all, how many of us knew squat about politics when we were 16? All we knew is what the liberal teachers told us.

sure i do not mind that felons can vote after they have paid their dues to society

on the other hand if that is the case then their other rights must be restored as well

such as the right to arms

 

[Humorme]

When Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence. It specifically states that:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

A lot can be gleaned from that.

Some Rights are unalienable (literally above the government's jurisdiction.) That is what unalienable means. So, these Rights, given by a Creator (your God, whomever you deem that be) bestows upon you both Liberty and LIFE... and the founders were not shy about the way they felt regarding your Right to defend your life.

Liberty is the ability to do things that do not bring harm to another. Owning a firearm, does not in and of itself bring harm to another human being. Neither does the firearm. However, when you put people on the streets that you KNOW pose a danger to others, you're an idiot. And I'm personally not going to be penalized for the idiocy of politicians that don't want to take nutjobs off the streets and put them into a place where they receive supervised care.

And they also implemented a way of changing the Constitution because they knew things would change.

They didn't have ten school shootings in a month back then.

Again, George Washington answered you:

" If in the opinion of the People, the distribution or modification of the Constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed." George Washington Farewell Address 1795

So, the legal, constitutional and proper way to get what you want is to amend the Constitution, NOT turn the courts loose to be your legislator. What's so hard to understand about that?

The things you're bitching about today could have been prevented HAD THE GOVERNMENT DONE THEIR DAMN JOB. They've had the tools, the laws, and the manpower. WTH is keeping them from using it? And what does ANY of that have to do with the OP?

Listen, I'm not arguing against what the Founding Fathers said.

Times were different back then and they made the Constitution flexible for a reason. That reason was that times would change and the needs of the people would be different.

Back then the US struggled to make an army. Back then dictators were the norm. Back then most people couldn't read or right, and most people didn't have the vote. Different times. Slavery was considered acceptable, it was a part of the US. That doesn't mean the US should have it now, does it?

You can always amend the Constitution, NOT throw it under the bus with an illegal / unconstitutional act.

For me, this is simple:

Ever since the first time I voted in a presidential election, when the Republicans got in office, the liberals forced them to compromise on gun control measures. There was Reagan with his major attack on the Second Amendment. Then George Bush burned his NRA membership card (after taking their money) and banned semi-automatic imports. Bush # II was willing to reinstate the AWB despite the FACT that it did not reduce crime or shootings. On and on the game has gone on, unchallenged. What we've accomplished is tor reduce the Republic into a socialistic democracy.

While the left keeps lying about what this is really about, I'm saying this:

IF this discussion is about saving lives, then join with me and let's talk about the facts. Let's ask why we allow the criminally insane to run amok in a free society. Let's talk about the fact that for every mentally ill person in a mental institution, we have more than TEN mentally ill people in prison and when they are let out, they are more screwed up than when they went in.

Let's take about the fact that is the mentally ill who are never properly treated being the ones who commit mass shootings while the dullards keep blaming the Second Amendment.

Let's talk about the fact that the laws and controls are in place, but the system does not do their job. With the latest mass shooting, the county government did not do their job; the state did not do their job; the LEO community was absent and asleep despite the reports, complaints and the obvious warning signs after going to this guy's home repeatedly. Why are we not talking about the cop who was allowed to retire and draw a full pension? How come we are giving the FBI a free pass for sitting on their backsides and DOING NOTHING?

Every time I try to have a thread about preventative measures, we have the liberals trying to make the damn thread about a referendum on gun control. Adding insult to injury, I was working on this issue BEFORE Sandy Hook, BEFORE Lakeland, Florida. I was lobbying for the issues I brought up here a full week BEFORE Nickolas Cruz. I remain convinced that the left has no empathy and don't give two hoots in Hell about saving lives. And I'm sick and tired of the Republicans who refuse to get involved, go on the offensive and get to the root of the problem (summed up in this post.)

I know... TLDR. THAT is why we're in this shape. This time, I'm just as determined to stop crazed killers BEFORE they strike as much as the left is determined to take peoples firearms. You're not going to win that battle in my lifetime, so you are always welcome to join me in getting preventative measures in place and stop the killing BEFORE it starts. OR, you can ignore my pleas and make this a never ending referendum. Would you, as a father rather win in a popularity poll OR work for a solution we could all live with?

This time I'm speaking to those 17 - 21 years of age because the media, the left, and anti-gunners want to marginalize them and take their Rights without bothering to even have a discussion about who has been responsible for the mass shootings. Firearms are no more to blame than a car is responsible for the drunk who wrecks and kills an entire family.

Yes, you can amend the Constitution. But the way the gun people make it out, you can't do that either.

Throwing it under the bus would imply that people know what it actually means, and in my experience a lot of people will twist the meaning to fit their own agenda, on both sides.

We can talk about facts.

The facts are 4 times more people die in the US than in other First World countries from murder.

Also the US's murder rate is 3/4 gun murders.

We can talk about mental illness and why the US doesn't really deal with it effectively. Why prisons are used as places to hide those with mental problems away from society.

We can talk about education too, and why it's severely lacking.

We can also talk about how none of this is ever going to change. Firstly because the political system is so broken that only two parties ever get in and they're so corrupt that they've legitimized this corruption. Secondly that the voters don't bother to vote properly and many of them reinforce the problems in society.

Yes, we can talk all of this. But nothing will ever change, and the more shootings take place in schools and the like, the more people are going to go after guns, because those who want to keep their guns aren't willing to change society in the manner necessary to stop the killings without taking away the guns. So guns will continue to be a target.

Either America is a nation of laws or it is not. Either the United States Constitution is the law of the land OR we are just a simple democracy where a popularity contest determines right from wrong.

If you insist on taking a dump on the Constitution, then every Right you cherish is at risk.

There are two avenues here:

Continue to take people's guns away incrementally until the Constitution has NO meaning OR start doing more than having this incessantly silly conversation.

The thing of it is, that all through my life (Reagan being the first president I could vote for) the Republicans have compromised with the Democrats, giving us absolute gun control on the installment plan.

At the same time, the Democrats never sit down and negotiate with us in good faith. But, now, for me, it is really frustrating. The Republicans KNOW, for a fact, that not only did gun control NOT WORK, but there exists better ways of addressing this issue so that we reduce deaths by firearms without the standard incremental attack on the Second Amendment.

I'm mad at the Republicans for not fighting a battle based on offense (the best defense being a good offense) and sick of the gun control argument as a whole. Neither side wants to stop the carnage. That is why we never advance beyond the same, old, tired, worn out, back and forth political jockeying It's time to get the nutjobs off the streets. It's time for the left to sit down and negotiate in good faith, not try that silly mind game about asking if the public should have access to this kind of weapon or another. Between you and I that one is a no brainer.

Most honest people will acknowledge that our forefathers were predominantly Christian. So, they founded a country based on Christian values. Jesus told his apostles that they were to carry a sword even if they had to hock their robes in order to do so. Earlier, in that same book of the Bible, it admonishes us: "When a strong man armed keeps his palace, his goods are in peace (Luke 11:21) Don't you think that when Jesus said that, he could not fathom a time in the future where people would use muskets that are far more dangerous than swords? Yet II Timothy 3:16 & 17 states that "16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

We have two choices: Rid this country of guns OR keep those we KNOW that pose a threat to society in protective custody, in a supervised environment. Sandy Hook could have been prevented with the laws, tools, and technology we have in place. Nickolas Cruz in Lakeland, Florida could have been stopped with the laws, tools, and technology we have in place. So could many other mass shooters been stopped before the carnage began. It's time to hold others accountable.

 

[Crixus]

If you are between the ages of 17 - 21 and are following all these gun control threads, there is something I would like you to consider. This isn't a debate, it's a political / legal reality so bear with me.

All of these retail establishments along with the president have decided that until you're 21 you should not own a firearm. What strikes me as odd here is that at 17 you can sign up and go into the military and defend this country, but it's another FOUR YEARS before the government thinks you ought to be able to defend your own life.

If you don't like that, you should urge all those in your age group to boycott the military until Uncle Scam gets his head out of his ..........

Virtually every election cycle when Republicans gain any power, the media and the Democrats sensationalize someone else's misery in order to sell gun control and force the Republicans to sign major gun legislation that ultimately accomplishes NOTHING.

* Under Reagan, he signed a bill to outlaw the future manufacture of fully autos for civilian use - and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA HAD DIED FROM A BULLET FIRED FROM A LEGAL FULL AUTO.
* Behind him was George Bush who banned the importation of foreign made semi-automatic firearms
* George W. Bush said he would have extended the AWB put into place by Clinton, but Congress did not give him that luxury
* Today a nitwit, double talking traitor has promised the Democrats the sun, the moon and the stars on the gun control issue - even advocating circumventing Due Process do it!!!

Every time there is a catastrophe, the Ds and Rs do their song and dance routine over gun control and every time it ends with the Ds getting compromises and more gun control. The problem is, IT DON'T SAVE LIVES.

None of the pabulum puking political propaganda prostitutes from EITHER side has informed you that IF the current laws had been followed, Adam Lanza (who committed the Sandy Hook murders) along with Nickolas Cruz would have been stopped BEFORE the carnage began. The laws were in place, but the cops didn't do their job; the county school system didn't do its job; the FBI didn't do their job. And yet NOBODY with the county faces accountability, the cop who turned tail and ran faces no accountability (Hell he gets to retire and draw a pension); the FBI gets off scott free! Why pass more laws if they don't use the current ones to prevent this crap?

Then they single out those between 17 and 21, the NRA, Republicans, conservatives and everyone else that IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. It is time for gun owners to go on the offensive and offer ways to address the issue without gun control and those of you 17 - 21 could boycott joining the armed forces until the gun control hysteria stops and the government holds those who allowed the mass shootings to happen be held accountable AND consider the proposals that would reduce gun violence without infringing on our Rights. No point in serving a country that won't serve you, but throw you under the bus instead of admitting what the world should know.

Had the government done their jobs under existing law, those children would still be alive. You should not be held accountable for the government's failure to simply do their job.

But it’s all reasonable right?


Where are the hound folks asking why it’s okay that fat disgusting slobs like Trump and the political ruling class can ask an 18 year old kid to go spend his life on a useless cause like Afghanistan or Iraq, but we can’t give the. Beer? Can’t give them guns? But they can sure vote.


Stop electing liars and cowards like Trump. Assume any republicans are as big liars as the democrat ( some are worse) and stop voting for them.