Zone1 Heaven VS Hell! Where does that leave us?

[The Irish Ram]

If Jesus floated, it means he wasn't bound by gravity. Natural vs. Spiritual. Your entire premise is wrong right out of the gate. Spiritual is not the same as natural.

 

[Michigan Swampbuck]

If Jesus floated, it means he wasn't bound by gravity. Natural vs. Spiritual. Your entire premise is wrong right out of the gate. Spiritual is not the same as natural.

Sure. Thanks. You're absolutely correct, I'm wrong from day one and you are entirely right. I guess I don't have to make any more comments as you got that covered.

Boy is that ever a load off my mind to know how wrong I am, and you're not even my old lady.

Well, glad to know you, have a nice day

 

[The Irish Ram]

Sure. Thanks. You're absolutely correct, I'm wrong from day one and you are entirely right. I guess I don't have to make any more comments as you got that covered.

Boy is that ever a load off my mind to know how wrong I am, and you're not even my old lady.

Well, glad to know you, have a nice day

Good. Glad we got that settled!

 

[Michigan Swampbuck]

I am making a comment . . .
If God and the heaven world are perfect and the opposite of our mortal existence, it sure makes life on Earth look like a living hell to me. With no real proof of life after death or the existence of an eternal soul, we are just meat-puppets if looked at from a materialistic perspective.

Suppose for a moment that God never allowed such a curse as mortal existence to befall his beloved children. What if suffering is not necessary to grow, learn, and evolve spiritually? If either of these are valid possibilities then how could I possibly see my suffering as loving and benevolent? It sounds like a controlling, sadistic, and abusive relationship. Then we have the Eucharist, the cannibalistic consumption of Christ's flesh and blood, and his crucifixion with the whipping and all. Man that is some evil fetish that is supposed to get me into heaven.

 

[Michigan Swampbuck]

Well, it appears that I have played out this subject on the US Message Board. My thanks to all those members who contributed regardless of their stand on this.

I'll be back to the drawing board and continuing my project. For those who may come back to this thread, I leave you with the following, not so much as an explanation, but to leave you to ponder my real motivation.

In the last decade, the horror genre has experienced a renaissance. Horror films have seen a huge increase in critical acclaim, increased critical engagement in analysis of the genre, and an increase in available budgets for horror films and box office returns.

One of the most noticeable trends within the genre in the 2010s has been an increasing divide in the stylistic approach to the genre. On one hand, we have more mainstream, “jump scare” horror films, on the other, there are horror movies that take an art-house approach to the genre. The mainstream type leans into the conventional, established approach to scaring the audience, while the more art-house horror films focus more on the metaphorical or psychological, looking to disorient its audience and create a sense of dread or unease instead of straightforward scares.

LINK

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Immediately I can see that regardless of any good or evil acts during my mortal existence that I will have eternal life after death. Where I go is up for debate

Not all believe this. Some will tell you this is a satanic lie.

You are not immortal. Eternal life is a GIFT of God. DEATH forever is our natural path. Follow Christ and receive ETERNAL LIFE

 

[Woodznutz]

I have been thinking a lot about the popular beliefs around heaven and hell and can't justify any of it. My line of thinking is a comparison/contrast of the afterlife and our current situation as mortal beings on planet Earth. Let's look at some points of consideration.

If you lived as a good soul, and you pass inspection at the final judgement, once you die, then heaven is where you will spend eternity.

If you are an evil soul, and you don't pass inspection after death, you spend eternity in HELL!

Immediately I can see that regardless of any good or evil acts during my mortal existence that I will have eternal life after death. Where I go is up for debate.

Now, what do we have that we will lose or gain one way or the other?

In my perfect and pure eternal body in my heavenly abode, I will live without hunger, thirst, carnal desires (hopefully not), and other undesirable aspects of human existence. No sickness or disease, no pain, and no death.


Now, in Hell, this is the eternal abode of evil and un-repenting souls who will suffer unspeakable pain forever as a punishment for being evil.

Heaven, is perfect, pleasant, hope fulfilled, and eternal. Hell, is painful, foul, entirely hopeless, and also eternal.

Mortal existence is imperfect, destructive, hopeless (without God), and temporary.

I don't see much difference between our temporary mortal existence and the Hell we are threatened with unless we obey a God that seems far more evil than his fallen angels. I seriously believe if there is a heaven world in the afterlife as described, then this mortal life is Hell on Earth as far as I am concerned.

I find myself having real sympathy for the Devil as the adversary of a God that would believe it was his blessing to create such a dark and evil universe and make us struggle here as mortals, only to die and be judged like this. Even a heavenly afterlife seems evil when I really think about this deal.

Of course, if I go with my other concept, of creation as a heat engine or mere entertainment as a fireworks display for God to be amused, then I really have respect for Satan and his rebellion against God.

I could be a real Satanist if those political posers and their Baphomet BS wasn't the accepted norm now-a-days. It is so true that evil grows with ignorance.

Bottom line, humanity is extremely screwed up and the dark and evil universe created us with natural selection to make sure we ended up this way.

You can get a foretaste of heaven or hell right here on earth. Just either follow God's lead or not. See where it takes you. The proving ground, or
battle ground, is in your own head.

 

[Bezukhov]

What is heaven? What is hell?

Here's the best explanation I've heard:

In heaven: Your cook is Italian. Your mechanic is German. Your policeman is English. Your lover is French. It is all organized by the Swiss.

In hell: Your cook is English. Your mechanic is French. Your policeman is German. Your lover is Swiss. It is all organized by the Italians.

 

[onefour1]

Michigan Swampbuck, Back in the old days when I was young I took a philosophy of religion course my first year of college. The instructor of the course first established that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. He then used these godly traits to give us a challenging question. He asked, if God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving and caring God, then why didn't he simply create us to be perfect just like himself? Why all the suffering, pain and death if God could simply create us perfect? I, being a believer in God was taken back by this question and didn't know the answer. I went home and thought about this for weeks and months and almost an entire year without a good answer. Upon studying scripture I came up with my answer. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In my church we believe in the Bible, but we also have other scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. I was studying in the Doctrine and Covenants in the 93 section and found the following verse:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

What this verse was telling me was that there was something that God cannot do. It is saying that God cannot create Intelligence. It is saying that the intelligences that exist in the universe are self-existent. They have always existed. In my church I have always believed that we existed prior to being born on this earth as the spirit children of God the Father. But I had believed that before we were born as the spirit children of God the Father, that we didn't exist. This was a new concept to me. So if we have always existed as intelligences, then God could not create us to be any more intelligent than what our self-existing intelligences were. Thus if we were not perfect already, then God could not create us to be perfect with our intelligence.

This also got me thinking what it means by God being omnipotent. What I believe now is that there things in the universe that are eternally impossible, even for God. So when I hear the phrase, "God is all powerful", I believe that God is capable doing all that is possible to do. However, I believe that there are eternal impossibilities that not even God can do. We can't even comprehend all that is possible but I believe God can and can do all that is possible. However, I do believe that there are things that not even God can do. For example, he cannot create intelligence. I also do not believe that God can create out absolutely nothing. I don't believe that God can be an absolutely evil being and simultaneously be an all good being. I consider these things eternal impossibilities. I also believe that matter is eternal in nature and has always existed.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

So for me, understanding these things and believing them helps me to understand God and why he would create this world and have us come here to learn the nature of good and evil. If our intelligence was not perfect and God could not create it, he could not create us to be perfect and thus has another means of having us advance in knowledge and understanding. This life is temporary and we are given the opportunity to come to this world and experience good and evil and learn what God know about good and evil. We are also given bodies of flesh and bones that we might learn master them and control them. Eventually God will grant us all immortality through the resurrection and we will then live forever and ever without pain, suffering, and death but we will retain what we learn in this life. Hopefully we will use our time in this mortal world to gain truth and understanding and learn how to live in peace and love with our fellow beings. Heaven would not be heaven if we have to live among evil. God gives us the chance to learn but if we choose evil over good, allowing evil beings to live among good beings would not be heaven. God must separate us to various kingdoms based on our desire to live righteously or unrighteously. Those who learn to follow goodness will be blessed to live in the highest heaven. Those who do not will be placed in a kingdom where others are like them.

Finally it is important for us to understand the importance of free will. Nobody becomes a good being in and of themselves without choosing in and of themselves to be a good being. Thus it is important that God grant us free will to learn to choose in and of ourselves to be good beings. So it is really our choice if we want to go to heaven then we must learn to be heavenly beings. Lucifer, in the pre-earth life sought to take away the free will of mankind and thought his plan was greater than the plan of God. He started a war in heaven to get others to follow his plan of force. His plan was rejected and because of his rebellion he was cast out of heaven into the earth along with is follower. They continue here on earth to fight against God and try to get us to also rebel against God. Yes, God uses them to test us to see if we will choose good over evil even amongst their temptation. Those of us who overcome Satan and learn the true principles of goodness are candidates for the kingdom of heaven.

I hope maybe my perspective will give you another perspective of how things are and why God may do the things that he does. God loves you Michigan Swampbuck and is hoping you make good choices with your free will and become a truly good person inside so that he can grant you entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[shockedcanadian]

I asked considerable assistance and guidance from G-d in the early hours of this day. I don't want offend but in this province such prayers are probably more common than one might believe.

Many believe that evil of Man on earth is the "hell" others refer to. I can't say for certain who is correct, it's a murky subject. It would appear clear to me though that we all have a soul. This is the struggle on this planet, ensuring we are the righteous human beings so we can earn our path to heaven. The just may all rise again someday.

 

[Michigan Swampbuck]

Some here are understanding me, while so many others aren't.

Onefour1, why brother I'm from the Strangite branch of the LDS!

"James Jesse Strang (March 21, 1813 – July 9, 1856) was an American religious leader, politician and self-proclaimed monarch . .
.
In 1844, he said he had been appointed as the successor of Joseph Smith as leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite),[a] a faction of the Latter Day Saint movement. Strang testified that he had possession of a letter from Smith naming him as his successor, and furthermore reported that he had been ordained to the prophetic office by an angel. His followers believe his organization to be the sole legitimate continuation of the Church of Christ founded by Smith fourteen years before."

 

[Z99]

Some here are understanding me, while so many others aren't.

Onefour1, why brother I'm from the Strangite branch of the LDS!

"James Jesse Strang (March 21, 1813 – July 9, 1856) was an American religious leader, politician and self-proclaimed monarch . .
.
In 1844, he said he had been appointed as the successor of Joseph Smith as leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite),[a] a faction of the Latter Day Saint movement. Strang testified that he had possession of a letter from Smith naming him as his successor, and furthermore reported that he had been ordained to the prophetic office by an angel. His followers believe his organization to be the sole legitimate continuation of the Church of Christ founded by Smith fourteen years before."

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

[onefour1]

Some here are understanding me, while so many others aren't.

Onefour1, why brother I'm from the Strangite branch of the LDS!

"James Jesse Strang (March 21, 1813 – July 9, 1856) was an American religious leader, politician and self-proclaimed monarch . .
.
In 1844, he said he had been appointed as the successor of Joseph Smith as leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite),[a] a faction of the Latter Day Saint movement. Strang testified that he had possession of a letter from Smith naming him as his successor, and furthermore reported that he had been ordained to the prophetic office by an angel. His followers believe his organization to be the sole legitimate continuation of the Church of Christ founded by Smith fourteen years before."

So you already believe that Joseph Smith is a true prophet the same as I do. Michigan, from my perspective you are much farther along the path of truth than many. We are truly brothers in this commonality.

 

[onefour1]

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

So the question is: who has the contrary gospel from the one that Jesus, Paul and the apostles taught? From the perspective of a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe that our gospel is the true gospel that was taught by Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles. We believe that the original church of Jesus Christ eventually fell away into a state of apostasy through which later the Catholic church was formed. Where in the bible do we find the callings of a Pope or Cardinals? That was not the structure of the church that Jesus established. Protestants realized that the Catholics were an apostate church and broke away from it. But they did not have authority either since they were a break away from an already apostate church. The true church of Jesus Christ needed to be restored again to the earth and we believe that this occurred through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Once again the Church of Jesus Christ has been established on the earth with apostles and prophets to lead and guide its members. Paul taught this basic principal to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 4:10-15
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

 

[Z99]

So the question is: who has the contrary gospel from the one that Jesus, Paul and the apostles taught?

What does the LDS teach that is different from mainstream Christianity?

 

[onefour1]

What does the LDS teach that is different from mainstream Christianity?

As mentioned above, we teach that the original church of Jesus Christ set up by Jesus in the 1st century eventually fell into apostasy and necessitated a restoration. We believe the doctrine of the trinity is an apostate doctrine and that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are not the same being but three separate and distinct beings who are united in all that they do and form a godhead which constitutes the one true God. We believe that God the Father has an immortal body of flesh and bones the same as the resurrected Jesus Christ has and that the bringing together of spirit and body is a step in our progression of becoming more like God. We believe in continuing revelation and the continuing of priesthood power within the church of Jesus Christ. We reject the notion of sola scriptura and that God has spoken to other peoples throughout history and they have recorded his words such as the Book of Mormon. Our scriptural canon consists of The Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. The Book of Mormon contains an ancient history of Israelites who migrated to the Americas and their dealings with God. The Doctrine and Covenants consists of modern day revelation received from God through the Prophet Joseph Smith and other modern day prophets. The Pearl of Great Price consists of the translation of an ancient scroll known as the Book of Abraham and also contains some of the writings of Moses as well as the history of Joseph Smith. We believe in a premortal existence of mankind and that we were born as spirit children of God the Father prior to coming to this earth. We believe that we participated in the war in heaven and all who come to this earth to receive bodies were on the side of God the Father and Jesus Christ in the war in heaven. We have other differences but these are some of the main differences.

 

[Votto]

Same here.



I honestly don't know what I believe anymore as a part of me believes this but a part of me also believes that God wouldn't send anybody to Hell just for simply having different beliefs than Christianity.



That statement I already know that I don't agree with at all though.

Some people may say there is no hell till you mention someone like Hitler, then all of a sudden, the absence of it becomes absurd.

The conundrum of all those of faith is how could a good God allow suffering, with hell being the ultimate suffering. But whether hell exists, or it does not, the conundrum remains the same. How can you say there is no suffering in hell when there is suffering on earth that is sometimes hell like?

Of course, for those not of faith, their conundrum is even worse, that is, how do you explain everything else?

The statement that God is evil is logically false, that is, a God that is all powerful and evil. For if that were so, we would only know suffering and that is simply not the case.

But how could an all-powerful God who is good allow suffering? I think the answer comes down to the Biblical claim that God is love. And what is love? Love demands that two parties have the free will to love and accept or reject the other. And when love is rejected, suffering ensues. Therefore, in my view God must have found a way to preserve free will, while still being all powerful. How this is done is but a mystery, but if he is all powerful, he found a way.

As for God creating evil, evil does not really exist, much like darkness does not really exist. Darkness is simply a description for a lack of light, which is what wickedness really is, it is the absence of God as they reject him.

For me, hell is the destination for all those who chose to reject God based on their free will, as a good God would never allow all of creation to be subject to suffering forever. But if none ever chose to reject God, could we really say that free will ever existed to begin with?

 

[Z99]

As mentioned above, we teach that the original church of Jesus Christ set up by Jesus in the 1st century eventually fell into apostasy and necessitated a restoration. We believe the doctrine of the trinity is an apostate doctrine and that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are not the same being but three separate and distinct beings who are united in all that they do and form a godhead which constitutes the one true God. We believe that God the Father has an immortal body of flesh and bones the same as the resurrected Jesus Christ has and that the bringing together of spirit and body is a step in our progression of becoming more like God. We believe in continuing revelation and the continuing of priesthood power within the church of Jesus Christ. We reject the notion of sola scriptura and that God has spoken to other peoples throughout history and they have recorded his words such as the Book of Mormon. Our scriptural canon consists of The Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. The Book of Mormon contains an ancient history of Israelites who migrated to the Americas and their dealings with God. The Doctrine and Covenants consists of modern day revelation received from God through the Prophet Joseph Smith and other modern day prophets. The Pearl of Great Price consists of the translation of an ancient scroll known as the Book of Abraham and also contains some of the writings of Moses as well as the history of Joseph Smith. We believe in a premortal existence of mankind and that we were born as spirit children of God the Father prior to coming to this earth. We believe that we participated in the war in heaven and all who come to this earth to receive bodies were on the side of God the Father and Jesus Christ in the war in heaven. We have other differences but these are some of the main differences.

Thanks for the enlightenment!

I myself AM sola scriptura. As Paul wrote, the scriptures are sufficient for the man of God to be "complete".

I do believe that which is considered the canonical Christian Bible to be THE scriptures that we should follow.

 

[Z99]

hell is the destination for all those who chose to reject God based on their free will

How does one have free will when they don't have all of the information?

 

[Votto]

How does one have free will when they don't have all of the information?

The only way to have all information is to be God, but that position can only be filled by God.

Knowing everything about someone is by no means a requirement for loving them. In fact, for everyone we love there are and will always be mysteries about them.