High School Suspends Student For Not Standing For Pledge Of Allegiance

[jon_berzerk]

Sigh..... didn't the courts already settle this issue years ago?

High School Suspends Student For Not Standing For Pledge Of Allegiance « CBS Houston

forcing one to say the pledge

is no pledge

 

[jon_berzerk]

I thought he was suspended for not standing rather than refusing to recite. I am quite sure that simply standing is neither reciting nor pledging, it would simply constitute respect for those who choose to do so.

I believe we are required by law and under sanction of contempt if we refuse to stand when the judge enters a courtroom.

good point

 

[Meathead]

I thought he was suspended for not standing rather than refusing to recite. I am quite sure that simply standing is neither reciting nor pledging, it would simply constitute respect for those who choose to do so.

I believe we are required by law and under sanction of contempt if we refuse to stand when the judge enters a courtroom.

A court is a different situation than a school assembly.

An amazing grasp of the obvious, but I ask you this: should one be forced to stand in respect for another person (and invariably a lawyer at that), while standing to show respect for a country and its people is optional?

 

[High_Gravity]

When I was a kid nobody ever didn't want to stand for the pledge of allegiance, what the fuck is going on these days?

 

[High_Gravity]

I thought he was suspended for not standing rather than refusing to recite. I am quite sure that simply standing is neither reciting nor pledging, it would simply constitute respect for those who choose to do so.

I believe we are required by law and under sanction of contempt if we refuse to stand when the judge enters a courtroom.

A court is a different situation than a school assembly.

An amazing grasp of the obvious, but I ask you this: should one be forced to stand in respect for another person (and invariably a lawyer at that), while standing to show respect for a country and its people is optional?

Thats a damn good point.

 

[martybegan]

I thought he was suspended for not standing rather than refusing to recite. I am quite sure that simply standing is neither reciting nor pledging, it would simply constitute respect for those who choose to do so.

I believe we are required by law and under sanction of contempt if we refuse to stand when the judge enters a courtroom.

A court is a different situation than a school assembly.

An amazing grasp of the obvious, but I ask you this: should one be forced to stand in respect for another person (and invariably a lawyer at that), while standing to show respect for a country and its people is optional?

You are not standing for the person, you are standing in deference to the court itself. Considering said court is about to decide ones fate, standing by all parties is acknowledgement of the courts authority, nothing more.

I don't see how the school can punish him. However, it can always bring in some vet to ask the kid why he is doing what he is doing. We keep forgetting to go with shame as opposed to punishment as a method of correcting actions we see as detrimental.

 

[Rocko]

What good is a pledge that is not voluntary?

When you were in school was the pledge of allegiance optional? Do you think it served a purpose?

 

[Meathead]

A court is a different situation than a school assembly.

An amazing grasp of the obvious, but I ask you this: should one be forced to stand in respect for another person (and invariably a lawyer at that), while standing to show respect for a country and its people is optional?

You are not standing for the person, you are standing in deference to the court itself. Considering said court is about to decide ones fate, standing by all parties is acknowledgement of the courts authority, nothing more.

I don't see how the school can punish him. However, it can always bring in some vet to ask the kid why he is doing what he is doing. We keep forgetting to go with shame as opposed to punishment as a method of correcting actions we see as detrimental.

The judge is the embodiment of the court, and showing contempt for the judge is tantamount to contempt of court. Even those who are not part of the proceedings are required to stand, but then no one is required to pledge anything, rather they are required simply to stand.

 

[DriftingSand]

The school's in a tough spot. What are they supposed to do? Make the pledge of allegiance optional? Maybe, I don't know, but the school should want to promote love of country, kids should respect authority and there has to be order. Perhaps a suspension is too harsh, maybe if kids chose to protest they recieve some other punishment. If they want to take a stand then they have to pay some sort of price. That's how it works a lot of times in the real world.

There's a major push to destroy America's sense of unity. United we stand ... divided we fall. The main talking points:

"Republicans have waged a war on women" - Men vs. Women
"Republicans are racists" - Black vs. White
"Republicans are homophobic" - Normal vs. Gay
"Folks clinging to their Bibles" - Christian vs. Secular or, in the case of the person making the claim, Christians vs. Muslims
"Folks clinging to their guns" - Constitutionalists vs. Pacifist Socialists.
"Bundy is a terrorist" - Freedom lovers vs. government tyranny.

Well ... you know the rest of the story.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Having the pledge of allegiance is a great idea. Making it mandatory defeats the purpose.

If you force the kid to participate, it is not a pledge of allegiance, it is forced recitation of words. Nothing more.

The proper way to handle this is through the old fashioned way of coercion: shame.

Next assembly sit a WWII vet and a wounded Iraq war vet on either side of the kid. Lets see how he reacts then. If he wants to make a stand for a position on something, make him work for it.

You mean the same vets who fought for our right to sit down during the pledge of allegiance?

You mean those vets?

 

[martybegan]

An amazing grasp of the obvious, but I ask you this: should one be forced to stand in respect for another person (and invariably a lawyer at that), while standing to show respect for a country and its people is optional?

You are not standing for the person, you are standing in deference to the court itself. Considering said court is about to decide ones fate, standing by all parties is acknowledgement of the courts authority, nothing more.

I don't see how the school can punish him. However, it can always bring in some vet to ask the kid why he is doing what he is doing. We keep forgetting to go with shame as opposed to punishment as a method of correcting actions we see as detrimental.

The judge is the embodiment of the court, and showing contempt for the judge is tantamount to contempt of court. Even those who are not part of the proceedings are required to stand, but then no one is required to pledge anything, rather they are required simply to stand.

If you can't force a student to say the pledge, I can't see how you can force them to stand up during the recital of the pledge by others. Yes, he is showing contempt of the pledge, but his contempt impacts nothing except the feelings of the other students and teachers around him, and as a libertarian, I can't see hurt feelings being a reason to punish someone.

Lack of respect in court, on the other hand, isn't about individual feelings, but about disrespecting the legitimacy of the court to be the arbiter of a dispute, be it civil or criminal. Considering those in attendance of the court are often party to its decisions, respect for those decisions flows from respect for the court. Forcing people to stand in court is basically a way of re-inforcing the concept that the court has the authority to make a decision.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sigh..... didn't the courts already settle this issue years ago?

High School Suspends Student For Not Standing For Pledge Of Allegiance « CBS Houston

I know we had a law suit over that in Fallbrook years ago..the kid and her family won.

Fallbrook, CA? I remember when it had maybe 3000 folks.

 

[Meathead]

Having the pledge of allegiance is a great idea. Making it mandatory defeats the purpose.

If you force the kid to participate, it is not a pledge of allegiance, it is forced recitation of words. Nothing more.

The proper way to handle this is through the old fashioned way of coercion: shame.

Next assembly sit a WWII vet and a wounded Iraq war vet on either side of the kid. Lets see how he reacts then. If he wants to make a stand for a position on something, make him work for it.

You mean the same vets who fought for our right to sit down during the pledge of allegiance?

You mean those vets?

Yeah, or to be assholes! Those vets?!

 

[Luddly Neddite]

The school's in a tough spot. What are they supposed to do? Make the pledge of allegiance optional? Maybe, I don't know, but the school should want to promote love of country, kids should respect authority and there has to be order. Perhaps a suspension is too harsh, maybe if kids chose to protest they recieve some other punishment. If they want to take a stand then they have to pay some sort of price. That's how it works a lot of times in the real world.

Yes, the pledge is and should be optional.

If you "love" your country, you also love that freedom.

Alternatively, we could dress our kids in brown shirts and give them no choices about what they believe.

 

[martybegan]

Having the pledge of allegiance is a great idea. Making it mandatory defeats the purpose.

If you force the kid to participate, it is not a pledge of allegiance, it is forced recitation of words. Nothing more.

The proper way to handle this is through the old fashioned way of coercion: shame.

Next assembly sit a WWII vet and a wounded Iraq war vet on either side of the kid. Lets see how he reacts then. If he wants to make a stand for a position on something, make him work for it.

You mean the same vets who fought for our right to sit down during the pledge of allegiance?

You mean those vets?

I'll lend out my grandfather. You should see the daggers in his eyes when he spots someone not standing or taking their hat off during the national anthem.

The government shouldn't be able to force you to stand or recite anything, unless you are in a courtroom. Peer pressure, on the other hand, should be used at will.

 

[Rocko]

The school's in a tough spot. What are they supposed to do? Make the pledge of allegiance optional? Maybe, I don't know, but the school should want to promote love of country, kids should respect authority and there has to be order. Perhaps a suspension is too harsh, maybe if kids chose to protest they recieve some other punishment. If they want to take a stand then they have to pay some sort of price. That's how it works a lot of times in the real world.

Yes, the pledge is and should be optional.

If you "love" your country, you also love that freedom.

Alternatively, we could dress our kids in brown shirts and give them no choices about what they believe.

When you were in school was it optional? No it wasn't, and it didn't kill you.

 

[rightwinger]

I never understood the need to constantly recite the Pledge of Allegiance

A pledge is voluntary and it is forever

Once I have made the decision to pledge my allegiance to my country, I should not have to repeat that pledge every day. If it was an honest pledge in the first place, should anyone ask you to keep repeating it?

Are you SURE you still have allegience?

 

[Meathead]

Alternatively, we could dress our kids in brown shirts and give them no choices about what they believe.

I wouldn't be in the least surprised. You indeed are the stuff of brown shirts. I am suspicious of fanatics of left or right, and while I'm sure you are trying to disparage them, you don't have the insight to understand you're disparaging yourself.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

What good is a pledge that is not voluntary?

When you were in school was the pledge of allegiance optional? Do you think it served a purpose?

Yes.

No.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

The proper way to handle this is through the old fashioned way of coercion: shame.

Next assembly sit a WWII vet and a wounded Iraq war vet on either side of the kid. Lets see how he reacts then. If he wants to make a stand for a position on something, make him work for it.

You mean the same vets who fought for our right to sit down during the pledge of allegiance?

You mean those vets?

I'll lend out my grandfather. You should see the daggers in his eyes when he spots someone not standing or taking their hat off during the national anthem.

The government shouldn't be able to force you to stand or recite anything, unless you are in a courtroom. Peer pressure, on the other hand, should be used at will.

In this country your grandfather has the right to his opinion, belief and the right to stare daggers.

I would stand but I have the right not to.

Do we really want to teach our kids that they don't have that right? Do we want to teach them to stop thinking for themselves and just be little automatons?