Holy crap - this has to stop!

[RetiredGySgt]

On NPR this evening, driving home, I listended to two great interviews - one with two freshmen congress critters - one Dem and one Repub...the other with someone who had previously worked with Gabby Giffords, then later won her seat when she stepped down. The gist was - we are all colleagues here, and that what is happening now has got to stop, it's absolutely toxic to civil society and I agree.

They said the same thing after Giffords was shot. It only got worse.

And she was shot by a lefty too.

Nice try.

He was neither left nor right.

He was a paranoid schizophrenic.

Arrested at 17: Accused Tucson Shooter Had Run-ins With the Law

"He did not watch TV, he disliked the news," Zach Osler said. "He didn't listen to political radio, he didn't take sides, he wasn't on the left, he wasn't on the right."

The lying by hacks is worse than the name calling.

You mean like the repeated efforts by the press and democrats to claim that Gabby shooter was a white right wing nut? Like that? I repeat lost for us all the shootings attacks and threats done by the Republicans in the last 8 months. We have repeated attacks and now shootings by the left to point to.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Fret not ----fellows in cyberspace--------chalk it up to SPRING FEVER----that vaguely unsettling
feeling that SOMTHIN' GOTTA GIVE....... ------it will pass

I used to always think that. This is different somehow. It's been going for a mighty long time now.

I'm thinking not more than 7 years. Did someone succeed when they sowed the seeds of division?

you forgot the 5 solid years he was accused of not even being an american. but a muslim born in kenya.

gee whiz.... who started that complete line of bullshit & only ended it so he could have a 30 minute infomercial spotlighting his newest hotel?

Now, let's call attention to this poster's sig line. The same language was being used by the attacker on his facebook feed. Am I saying this poster will go out and target some conservatives? No, but from where I'm sitting, he's beginning down the same path.

"Impeach Putin's Treasonous Bitch"

For me that's a red flag.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Do you remember talking to me about school vouchers? Your response was that school vouchers are good because of CHOICE. You made this whole thing about how it's the right who love choice and not the left, blah blah.

Now, you're not talking about choice. In fact you're against choice. Go figure Ray.

You want equality? So, the Republicans having an unfair advantage is equal? What the fuck?



Actually what would happen with PR is that the two party monopoly on power would be destroyed. The Founding Fathers didn't want a monopoly on power, if we're going to talk about what the Founding Fathers did or did not want. They did not want the President being elected by popular politics, but then Obama, Trump, Bush W. and Clinton were all elected more on personality than on substance.

Again, Idaho has a population of 1.5 million and New York has a population of 7-8 million. So, you'd give the people of Idaho more power just because of that? Not only that you'd keep toxic partisan politics in place (I'm certain the Founding Fathers would not want that) just to give the people of Idaho more power for their vote?

The reality is Idaho got ignored at the last Presidential election just like they've been ignored for decades. You're using an argument to say that Idaho need to be listened to, by supporting a system which IGNORES Idaho. Way'da go there Ray.

I didn't say it gave equity to Idaho compared to NYC, what I said is that it at least keeps them in the race. Without the college, those states would be ignored like Hillary ignored them. But because they have some equity through the college system, politicians have to campaign for their votes too.

In other words, without the college, the country would be controlled by NYC, Chicago and California. That's it. If you don't belong to those three cities and states, it's not worth your time to vote. We would be a one-party government forever (which is what the Democrats are trying to do anyway with immigration).

It keeps them in a race they haven't been in for, well probably since forever.

Oh, so, without the electoral college Idaho would be ignored, just as it is ignored with the electoral college. Is this really your argument? Come on.

The reality is this, Ray. With two parties in power, they'll go wherever the votes are needed to get them across the finishing line. Right now that's Florida, Ohio, Michigan, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nevada, Maine, Arizona, North Carolina, Colorado.

Take a look at this map. It's basically the states I mentioned. Where's Idaho?

The Crazy, Lopsided Math of Campaign 2016's Ad Spending So Far

This is from June 10th 2016

Trump spent $2.5 million in Florida, $1.8 million in North Carolina, $3.6 million in Iowa, the whole of Idaho got $361,000 spent on it by all sides.

Compare that to $54 million for Florida. They have 20 million people, that's $2.5 per person in the state. That's $6 per voter.
In Idaho that's $0.60 per voter, ten times less. And apparently you want the electoral college so Idaho doesn't get ignored.

Do you know what happens with PR?

Firstly you have a lot more parties. Which means you could have a Red-Neck Farmers' Party which might sweep up the votes of all the red neck farmers. Instead of Trump going to Florida and spending loads of money on advertising in the state, then walking away and only going back to play golf, he'd have to keep up the interest in the state, he'd have to offer them what a smaller party might be offering them and more.
In fact he'd have to join in a coalition (or well the House might, depending on how the system worked) with the Red-Neck Farmers' Party who would demand certain concessions for propping up his government.
Even if they weren't in government they'd be able to fight for their core support, putting in bills into Congress, trying to strike down those that didn't suit them.

Right now you have two parties, Democrats and Republicans. Democrats fight for whatever it is that Democrats think half the country wants and the Republicans doing the same for the other half.

In PR you'd have different parties fighting for different things and having far more success at it than trying to convince the big wigs at the top that it should be so.

So, your arguments for keeping the system are actually the arguments for GETTING RID OF THE SYSTEM.

View attachment 133175

But the blue should have been able to control the red.

So, you're saying land area should have equality of vote, not the people?

I mean, seriously, this isn't a response to what I wrote. This is a "I can't respond to what you wrote, so I'll try and find a man that fits my agenda". What's your argument Ray?

A President has the ability to rule over land and people. So of course people should be able to vote for their land as well.

We are not a Democracy, we are a Republic. If we were a pure Democracy, do you think slavery would have ended when it did? How about voting rights?

If you really want a popular vote, how would our country be today if the minority had no ability to overrule the majority?

Here's an idea: why don't we use popular vote to decide on Affirmative Action, Fair Housing, social programs??? I'm all for that--are you???

But it's the PEOPLE who have the vote, not the land.

Now, you showed a map and inferred that the land should have the vote, not the people. That if there's on person in one county, they should have the same amount of votes as 10,000 people in another county. Why? The people vote, people should have equality.

The problem is Ray, you're fitting arguments to your agenda, and not the other way around. What is it you really want? Please, I'll give some options and you decide which ones are the ones you'll be fighting for.

1) One person one vote
2) Multiple parties to choose from, apparently choice is good.
3) One hundred square miles, one vote
4) Two parties to choose from, choice is not good.

Yes, having the popular vote to decide on affirmative action and things like that is fine. I'm not against referenda at all, as long as it's done properly. The British showed people how not to do a referendum properly. I'm not talking about the result, I'm talking about the campaign which really was about as informative as a dead dog.

 

[Tom Horn]

Seriously. This toxic partisan political culture is poisoning civil society.

What the hell is wrong with us?

The left and the right pulling hair and screeching their bumpersticker slogans and broad brush pig ignorant partisan blamegaming? What's wrong with us?

I'm no youngster. I've never seen such a dangerous ambient.

We have someone shooting at one of our few remaining bipartisan non political fun charitable events because he wants to kill a bunch of (insert political party).

The rhetoric flooding the country is poisoning us. And no one wants to take responsibility for stepping up and saying "enough already". For changing it.

Our representatives are colleagues first and foremost. Political opponents second. They recognize it. That violence against one is violence against the others and against our very institutions. Why are we unable to recognize that?

You must be too young to remember the late 60's, early 70's....Weather Underground, Black Panthers, SLA, ELF, YIP, etc. Bill Ayers taught young Barrack how to hate America from the beginning of his political life. Socialists believe in violence every bit as much as radical Islam does....there has never been a government taken over by communists (socialists in wolves' clothing) that didn't involve heavy bloodshed. You don't like the inevitable outcome of the hate speech your side is using....the weakest link snaps and starts shooting or drives a truck into a crowd. Your version of Vietnam for instance...so completely false we who saw it with our own eyes are called liars. The atrocities the communists committed were never reported while those who did them were considered "freedom fighters" according to the Jane Fonda mental-cases in the NYTimes and CBS "news". Cronkite's fake news turned this nation on it's own sons. Post-Watergate journalism was taught as the ultimate aim for an enterprising reporter....to destroy a Republican presidency. What you should really worry about is the eventual outcome to all this....giving violent men a reason to respond to what your side is doing to this nation.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The danger and violence is all emanating from your side of the isle.

So these people show up to be disruptive and wonder why violence was perpetrated upon them. So where are the Trump people disrupting all those Hillary rallies? Doak..there are none.

Way to completely miss the incisive rhetoric that your dear leader has been spewing. It's as if you have some sort of permanent blinders on that prevent you from seeing it.

Remind me of all the attacks and shooting perpetrated by Republicans on Democrats the last 8 months?

What kind of moron hears about a shooting and goes to find out "quick, what's his political party?"

You'd have to be an absolute cretin.

That would be as stupid as hearing about a shooting and going "quick, what's his religion?"

You mean like how the press does that? When gabby was shot the press insisted for days the shooter was a right wing shooter. Democrats in Congress made the same claim. Now suddenly the press is all about how"crazy" he was.yet every time a non Republican gets shot the press runs with the white right wing shooter story until proven wrong time and again.

 

[Pogo]

Fret not ----fellows in cyberspace--------chalk it up to SPRING FEVER----that vaguely unsettling
feeling that SOMTHIN' GOTTA GIVE....... ------it will pass

I used to always think that. This is different somehow. It's been going for a mighty long time now.

I'm thinking not more than 7 years. Did someone succeed when they sowed the seeds of division?

you forgot the 5 solid years he was accused of not even being an american. but a muslim born in kenya.

gee whiz.... who started that complete line of bullshit & only ended it so he could have a 30 minute infomercial spotlighting his newest hotel?

Now, let call attention to this poster's sig line. The same language was being used by the attacker on his facebook feed. Am I saying this poster will go out and target some conservatives? No, but from where I'm sitting, he's beginning down the same path.

"Impeach Putin's Treasonous Bitch"

For me that's a red flag.

Uhhh.... impeachment is legal. Firearm assault is not.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Seriously. This toxic partisan political culture is poisoning civil society.

What the hell is wrong with us?

The left and the right pulling hair and screeching their bumpersticker slogans and broad brush pig ignorant partisan blamegaming? What's wrong with us?

I'm no youngster. I've never seen such a dangerous ambient.

We have someone shooting at one of our few remaining bipartisan non political fun charitable events because he wants to kill a bunch of (insert political party).

The rhetoric flooding the country is poisoning us. And no one wants to take responsibility for stepping up and saying "enough already". For changing it.

Our representatives are colleagues first and foremost. Political opponents second. They recognize it. That violence against one is violence against the others and against our very institutions. Why are we unable to recognize that?

It's a damn shame that our president play such a big role in the hatred and isn't the leader we need to heal the wounds.

He's a sucko piece of crap president BUT he is OUR elected representative. His office does stand for something and that includes basic respect. If he's not the leader to heal wounds - WE HAVE TO BE. We can't just crawl around crying and blaming and damaging our society and blaming the election. We CAN'T allow OUR rhetoric to energize our wingnuts into unspeakable actions because we have a p.o.s. president.

Going to have to call you on something here. He is in fact NOT a "sucko piece of crap". He is the President of the United States. If we ever want this stuff to stop the first thing you need to bring to the table is respect. He is the leader of this country and his authority supersedes yours and mine by orders of magnitude. This kind of name calling only engenders more hatred. This does not promote healing, it encourages more acts of hatred.

You should maybe read her post past the first sentence. See the forest; don't get hung up on a tree.

But that bit tainted the rest of the post. And yes, I do respect Coyote enough to read the entirety of her posts. But it just isn't the same when you say "He's a sucko piece of crap president". This defeats the entire cause of calling for civility. But I agreed with the rest of her post.

Sorry, Pogo.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The danger and violence is all emanating from your side of the isle.

So troublemakers come to his rallies to disrupt or try to stop it, but Trump is responsible for telling his people to use the same kind of violence they planned to use against his supporters. But those troublemakers are not promoting violence--Trump is.

Here's an idea: If troublemakers don't want a problem--don't go to Trump rallies in the first place to start trouble. Nah....... too much thinking for a liberal.

"Troublemakers?" Get a grip dude. This is America, and we have the right to free speech. You're now the second degenerate refusing to condone Trump's calls for violence. Disgusting.

Free speech does not include rioting assault and battery or throwing shit. ALL THINGS PERPETRATED BY Hillary IN Trump RALLIES.

Hillary showed up at a Rump rally? Link?

We have proof she sent people there to disrupt and riot. Or have you forgotten?

 

[Pogo]

So these people show up to be disruptive and wonder why violence was perpetrated upon them. So where are the Trump people disrupting all those Hillary rallies? Doak..there are none.

Way to completely miss the incisive rhetoric that your dear leader has been spewing. It's as if you have some sort of permanent blinders on that prevent you from seeing it.

Remind me of all the attacks and shooting perpetrated by Republicans on Democrats the last 8 months?

What kind of moron hears about a shooting and goes to find out "quick, what's his political party?"

You'd have to be an absolute cretin.

That would be as stupid as hearing about a shooting and going "quick, what's his religion?"

You mean like how the press does that? When gabby was shot the press insisted for days the shooter was a right wing shooter. Democrats in Congress made the same claim. Now suddenly the press is all about how"crazy" he was.yet every time a non Republican gets shot the press runs with the white right wing shooter story until proven wrong time and again.

Nope, I have zero recollection of anything like that, but do tell us more about how it was in the plane, Brian Williams. What I do remember (on another board, I wasn't here yet) was the same lame Composition Fallacists oozing in with "Jared Loughner is a registered Democrat! Drool drool!". Whether that's true or not I don't know or care since it's relevant to nothing. Because it's yet another iteration of the same fallacy.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Fret not ----fellows in cyberspace--------chalk it up to SPRING FEVER----that vaguely unsettling
feeling that SOMTHIN' GOTTA GIVE....... ------it will pass

I used to always think that. This is different somehow. It's been going for a mighty long time now.

I'm thinking not more than 7 years. Did someone succeed when they sowed the seeds of division?

you forgot the 5 solid years he was accused of not even being an american. but a muslim born in kenya.

gee whiz.... who started that complete line of bullshit & only ended it so he could have a 30 minute infomercial spotlighting his newest hotel?

Now, let call attention to this poster's sig line. The same language was being used by the attacker on his facebook feed. Am I saying this poster will go out and target some conservatives? No, but from where I'm sitting, he's beginning down the same path.

"Impeach Putin's Treasonous Bitch"

For me that's a red flag.

Uhhh.... impeachment is legal. Firearm assault is not.

Paying attention to the mental state is important, too. Or are we just going to ignore the proclivities of the person who tried to assassinate members of congress today? Hodgkinson was using some of the same language on his Facebook feed.

Impeach, Destroy, Terminate, Treason... the language is key. It is a window into the mind of the person in question.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So these people show up to be disruptive and wonder why violence was perpetrated upon them. So where are the Trump people disrupting all those Hillary rallies? Doak..there are none.

Way to completely miss the incisive rhetoric that your dear leader has been spewing. It's as if you have some sort of permanent blinders on that prevent you from seeing it.

Remind me of all the attacks and shooting perpetrated by Republicans on Democrats the last 8 months?

What kind of moron hears about a shooting and goes to find out "quick, what's his political party?"

You'd have to be an absolute cretin.

That would be as stupid as hearing about a shooting and going "quick, what's his religion?"

You mean like how the press does that? When gabby was shot the press insisted for days the shooter was a right wing shooter. Democrats in Congress made the same claim. Now suddenly the press is all about how"crazy" he was.yet every time a non Republican gets shot the press runs with the white right wing shooter story until proven wrong time and again.

Nope, I have zero recollection of anything like that, but do tell us more about how it was in the plane, Brian Williams. What I do remember (on another board, I wasn't here yet) was the same lame Composition Fallacists oozing in with "Jared Loughner is a registered Democrat! Drool drool!". Whether that's true or not I don't know or care since it's relevant to nothing. Because it's yet another iteration of the same fallacy.

You deny reality and claim you never saw what happened, that tells me you are a blazing fucking LIAR.

 

[Pogo]

Seriously. This toxic partisan political culture is poisoning civil society.

What the hell is wrong with us?

The left and the right pulling hair and screeching their bumpersticker slogans and broad brush pig ignorant partisan blamegaming? What's wrong with us?

I'm no youngster. I've never seen such a dangerous ambient.

We have someone shooting at one of our few remaining bipartisan non political fun charitable events because he wants to kill a bunch of (insert political party).

The rhetoric flooding the country is poisoning us. And no one wants to take responsibility for stepping up and saying "enough already". For changing it.

Our representatives are colleagues first and foremost. Political opponents second. They recognize it. That violence against one is violence against the others and against our very institutions. Why are we unable to recognize that?

It's a damn shame that our president play such a big role in the hatred and isn't the leader we need to heal the wounds.

He's a sucko piece of crap president BUT he is OUR elected representative. His office does stand for something and that includes basic respect. If he's not the leader to heal wounds - WE HAVE TO BE. We can't just crawl around crying and blaming and damaging our society and blaming the election. We CAN'T allow OUR rhetoric to energize our wingnuts into unspeakable actions because we have a p.o.s. president.

Going to have to call you on something here. He is in fact NOT a "sucko piece of crap". He is the President of the United States. If we ever want this stuff to stop the first thing you need to bring to the table is respect. He is the leader of this country and his authority supersedes yours and mine by orders of magnitude. This kind of name calling only engenders more hatred. This does not promote healing, it encourages more acts of hatred.

You should maybe read her post past the first sentence. See the forest; don't get hung up on a tree.

But that bit tainted the rest of the post. And yes, I do respect Coyote enough to read the entirety of her posts. But it just isn't the same when you say "He's a sucko piece of crap president". This defeats the entire cause of calling for civility. But I agreed with the rest of her post.

Sorry, Pogo.

You're easily triggered by that sort of thing -- I recall you had the same fixation with me using the name "Rump". The names are not the point of the post.

I've got a new name for him by the way. If you're interested. Keep up with the latest apps.

 

[SYTFE]

I used to always think that. This is different somehow. It's been going for a mighty long time now.

I'm thinking not more than 7 years. Did someone succeed when they sowed the seeds of division?

you forgot the 5 solid years he was accused of not even being an american. but a muslim born in kenya.

gee whiz.... who started that complete line of bullshit & only ended it so he could have a 30 minute infomercial spotlighting his newest hotel?

Now, let call attention to this poster's sig line. The same language was being used by the attacker on his facebook feed. Am I saying this poster will go out and target some conservatives? No, but from where I'm sitting, he's beginning down the same path.

"Impeach Putin's Treasonous Bitch"

For me that's a red flag.

Uhhh.... impeachment is legal. Firearm assault is not.

Paying attention to the mental state is important, too. Or are we just going to ignore the proclivities of the person who tried to assassinate members of congress today? Hodgkinson was using some of the same language on his Facebook feed.

Impeach, Destroy, Terminate, Treason... the language is key. It is a window into the mind of the person in question.

Then I'll expect you to chastise your fellow conservative friends here when they use that language referencing the left, Hillary or whoever. Just today bluestraveler or whatever his name is said that the entire left needed to be "destroyed." Happens here all the time. If I don't see you chiming in when they say stuff like that, I'll know your words are just as empty as always.

 

[TemplarKormac]

You're easily triggered by that sort of thing

I hate it when good points are tainted by namecalling though.

YOU WILL BOW DOWN TO ME!!

(Just kidding)

 

[Pogo]

I used to always think that. This is different somehow. It's been going for a mighty long time now.

I'm thinking not more than 7 years. Did someone succeed when they sowed the seeds of division?

you forgot the 5 solid years he was accused of not even being an american. but a muslim born in kenya.

gee whiz.... who started that complete line of bullshit & only ended it so he could have a 30 minute infomercial spotlighting his newest hotel?

Now, let call attention to this poster's sig line. The same language was being used by the attacker on his facebook feed. Am I saying this poster will go out and target some conservatives? No, but from where I'm sitting, he's beginning down the same path.

"Impeach Putin's Treasonous Bitch"

For me that's a red flag.

Uhhh.... impeachment is legal. Firearm assault is not.

Paying attention to the mental state is important, too. Or are we just going to ignore the proclivities of the person who tried to assassinate members of congress today? Hodgkinson was using some of the same language on his Facebook feed.

Impeach, Destroy, Terminate, Treason... the language is key. It is a window into the mind of the person in question.

"Impeach" is in no way synonymous with "destroy". It's a remedy spelled out in the Constitution.

If a person feels the President (any President) should be impeached ---- why should they be suppressed from saying so? Or put on some suspicion list? "Impeach" is not an act of violence. Never has been, never will be.

 

[skye]

Again....the Trump Administration has to stop this thuggery from the Left!


He has to do whatever it takes to keep peace on the land.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Again....the Trump Administration has to stop this thuggery from the Left!


He has to do whatever it takes to keep peace on the land.

So, you want them to stop this thuggery with thuggery?

 

[Pogo]

Way to completely miss the incisive rhetoric that your dear leader has been spewing. It's as if you have some sort of permanent blinders on that prevent you from seeing it.

Remind me of all the attacks and shooting perpetrated by Republicans on Democrats the last 8 months?

What kind of moron hears about a shooting and goes to find out "quick, what's his political party?"

You'd have to be an absolute cretin.

That would be as stupid as hearing about a shooting and going "quick, what's his religion?"

You mean like how the press does that? When gabby was shot the press insisted for days the shooter was a right wing shooter. Democrats in Congress made the same claim. Now suddenly the press is all about how"crazy" he was.yet every time a non Republican gets shot the press runs with the white right wing shooter story until proven wrong time and again.

Nope, I have zero recollection of anything like that, but do tell us more about how it was in the plane, Brian Williams. What I do remember (on another board, I wasn't here yet) was the same lame Composition Fallacists oozing in with "Jared Loughner is a registered Democrat! Drool drool!". Whether that's true or not I don't know or care since it's relevant to nothing. Because it's yet another iteration of the same fallacy.

You deny reality and claim you never saw what happened, that tells me you are a blazing fucking LIAR.

Oh really. I'm supposed to just sit here and take your word for it that something you claim to have seen six years ago, I somehow must have seen too.

Go learn how to read --- I just said that I have zero recollection of anything like that. Do you understand what that means? Are you going to read my mind now and prove how I do have such a recollection?

Freaking idiot.

Etherion -- you watching this shit? He just called me a "blazing fucking LIAR". Sic 'em!

 

[Pogo]

Again....the Trump Administration has to stop this thuggery from the Left!

SMH

 

[skye]

Again....the Trump Administration has to stop this thuggery from the Left!


He has to do whatever it takes to keep peace on the land.

So, you want them to stop this thuggery with thuggery?

I prefer not to talk to you

if that's ok