J
janeeng
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Jim, I think you want her! that's twice you put that nasty bitch up here, I think you would love to slap her around and do the naughty! hahahahahahahahaha
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Originally posted by Dawoud
BUT im still gonna keep posting articles written about the war in IRAQ...written and published in major papers
If you have a problem with them.......Tough
Originally posted by Aquarian
regarding the 'popular' picture a few posts back, I'd venture to guess that her state is more due to the ravages of living in a 3rd world country and/or being poor than being muslim in and of itself. Surely you don't think that's any more representative of muslims on the whole than this picture is of american women?
Is it alarming to you that the Army finds these suicides "alarming?"
could you post a link to that info please?
Originally posted by Magda
By the same token, you might want to type into your favorite search engine "form letters soldiers". This will help you in your quest for verification of the numbers sent to hometown newspapers.
In addition, if the army is concerned about the suicide rate, and you as a civilian see nothing wrong, I'll go with the experts.
Originally posted by Magda
Experts, or you?
The experts have the facts. You, unfortunately, do not.
Originally posted by jimnyc
You go with the experts, I'll go with the FACTS. The facts are that 12 of the "possible" suicides haven't even been confirmed as suicides. If they are confirmed, we'll be slightly over what they call an average. If not, it'll fall far below.
Let's not let FACTS get in your way though.
Thanks for your response to my request for a link. I have saved it for when you demand a link to evidence of someone's questionable statements.
Originally posted by jimnyc
"As yet there is no evidence indicating that the cases represent a spike in the rate of military suicides or any kind of pattern that can be linked to the battlefield environment or poor morale in Iraq, defense officials said. There were 118 suicides in the 1.2 million-member, active-duty military in 2001, which represents a rate that is at least one-third lower than that of the comparable civilian population."
" Overall, the military has not released an official count of possible suicides under investigation, and the total could be higher than seven, given a number of unexplained deaths included in the Pentagon's casualty statistics. The military has reported nine cases of accidental death that could include suicides, most of which were from "noncombat weapons discharges."
In 12 other cases, the cause of death has been officially listed as "other" and described only as "noncombat injuries."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A17109-2003Jul19?language=printer
The fact is, that you are taking data from the Army when their is an entire military unit over there which includes Army, Navy, Air Force & Marines.
Even if we go strictly with the Army figures, I don't find it all too alarming. Like I stated earlier, it sucks if even one soldier feels the need to take his own life, but the statistics just don't show mass suicides! The overall rate of suicide is actually lower amongst military personell than that of civilians.
Did you really think I was going to scour the internet for links related to suicide for each and every war that ever took place? LOL I'm sorry I couldn't satisfy you, but I just don't have that amount of time. If you choose just one or 2 wars and specify them I'll be happy to research for you!
The facts are that the number of military suicides is higher than the general population and the miliitary pre-Iraq.
You said, "I'll go with the facts." Whether you find them alarming is certainly up to you. The Army said that they do, but perhaps they are more sensitive.
However, I rather think that when one is asserting that "I'll go with facts," he would have some to back up such a statement.
But like I said I didn't expect anything.
Originally posted by jimnyc
Thats not true, and not even close. The general population suicide rate is substantially higher than that of the military.
Of course they are going to say it in a manner that will endear them to the listening public. The suicides are extremely close to what the yearly averages have been. If it tends to be a few more or less this particular year isn't, in my opinion, alarming.
When I said "I'll go with the facts", that was in reference to the total amount of suicides by our soldiers since the Iraq war started. Hell, go back to 9/11, the suicides just really aren't above the norm in our military. Not sure what you expected, but I did in fact post links to support these numbers. I'm sorry they didn't meet your expectations.
This entire discussion started in an attempt to make it seem as if the entire military population was dissatisfied with their efforts in Iraq and that all soldiers have a low sense of morale, thus leading to an increase in suicides. The polls show that most soldiers are behind the effort and in full support of our government.
Again, 17 per 100,000 (of troops in Iraq) is MORE than 13 per 100,000 which is the rate for the same age group in the general population. It doesn't matter how many times you try to say it isn't even close, you are still wrong.
Fine, the U.S. Army is alarmed and you are not. That's allowed, perhaps the U.S. Army is more sensitive.
And if the rate among those in Iraq is higher than those not in Iraq, which it is, it seems to make perfect sense to look at the conditions in Iraq as something associated with the increase rate.
I don't know what the intentions were of the original poster. I do know that whatever they were does not change the fact that the suicide rate among U.S. military serving in Iraq is higher than the general population or the military population outside of Iraq. That is true even if none of the "suspected" suicides being investigated prove to be, in fact, suicides.
http://www.notinourname.net/troops/poll-16oct03.htm
Originally posted by jimnyc
Can you please use the quote function above where you type in your post to quote what you are responding to. The longer the replies get, the more difficult it gets to read your posts.
And it's only been 13 confirmed, you are banking on future suicides. And why did you limit the suicides to a particular age group? Do you have the data available to show us the age groups of those who committed suicide in Iraq? (just asking, don't even know if it is available). Try all age groups in the USA and see which is higher, or provide data that proves the specific age group you are speaking of. Shoot, while you're at it, let's narrow it down to ethnicity!
You've already stated that in your previous reply. I responded to it then and I notice you omitted that portion out.
Let's play your game. The info I have found so far (I can't find the data in it's entirety) shows the suicides to be white males between the ages of 24-44. The rate for that combination among US citizens is 19.5 out of 100,000.
And I would say it isn't necessarily the conditions in Iraq, but maybe results of being in Iraq. It's most likely despondent soldiers that can't take being away from their families. In fact, I think I read a report today that suggested that some of the suicides weren't even intentional, that some of them may have done so trying to injure themselves so that they can go home to their families. (which would technically lower the suicide stats)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031023/ts_nm/iraq_usa_suicides_dc_1
Oh really? The military calls them on average with the normal USA stats, and thats before they found out some may not have meant to kill themselves. From the article I just posted:
" The extent of the problem is difficult to judge. Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides but the overall commander of U.S. forces in Iraq said on Wednesday the number of suicides among his troops was comparable to an average similar-sized group of people in the United States."
And people have the audacity to question the sources of my polls? LOL Here's the mission statement from the Anti Bush/War/Government site you got that from (real credible, and not to mention biased!):
"The Not In Our Name Project is a national network of individuals and organizations committed to standing with the people of the world. As the Not in Our Name Pledge of Resistance states, "we believe that as people living in the United States it is our responsibility to resist the injustices done by our government, in our names." Our mission is to build, strengthen and expand resistance to stop the U.S. government's entire course of war and repression being waged in the name of "fighting terrorism." This course has three main components"
13 confirmed?
"In the past seven months, at least 11 soldiers and three Marines have committed suicide in Iraq, military officials say. That is an annual rate of 17 per 100,000. "
Limit to a particular age group? Gee, I don't know. That is the way the U.S. "military officials" are reporting these figures.
Perhaps you would have them compare the soldiers with the suicide rate among pre-schoolers?
Why are you limiting your figures to white males between the ages of 24-44?
By the way, these are not MY figures. They are, according to the link, the statement of the U.S. Army. Would they lie? If you think they are lying, then you think they are lying. I have no reason to believe they are. True, I have heard people question even the fatality figures of U.S. troops but I don't know that anything has come of that question.
Conditions in Iraq? If there are U.S. Military in Iraq and they are despondent, low morale, for any reason, that is part of the conditions in Iraq. I would ask you to consider that this comes after "The Army responded to a 26% increase in active-duty suicides from 1997 to 1999 by implementing the suicide-prevention program in 2001." Or maybe they were lying about that increase.
Um, okay. That was a discussion of the findings of a poll by Stars and Stripes magazine, a pentagon funded publication, also linked. I didn't see you dispute their conclusions (?) but only their mission statement.
"Let's play your game"? Okay, I have been mislead. In my ignorance I thought this was an honest discussion out of a heartfelt effort to "support our troops." That it is merely a game of my-figures-beat-your-figures, my-sources-are-legit-and-yours- are-not' is truly embarrassing, I don't do that.
I hope that you are correct and the Army is wrong and there is nothing to be alarmed about regarding the suicides in Iraq among U.S. military. I hope that the Army is lying to us about the figures and you are correct. I certainly hope the Army is mistaken and you are correct and there is no increase following the already huge increase in 1997-1999 and there is nothing to be concerned about.