How can we be sure Judaism's holy sites will be safe?

[P F Tinmore]

"...Lots of blabber but nothing to prove me wrong."

You really and truly don't get it, do you, Tinny?

You might be wrong.

You might be right.

But either way, it doesn't matter in the slightest.

Let's say, for the moment, that you ARE right.

Victory on the battlefield has set that aside.

Old circumstances and old understandings and old legal standings have been swept aside.

The battlefield is the Court of Last Resort for any two opposing parties who cannot come to an agreement any other way.

It has been thus for Mankind since time immemorial, and we, ourselves, along with much of the rest of Mankind, continue to exercise that option every so often, as needed.

Rather like a good purgative, to flush-out the digestive tract.

Gets rid of the blockage and gets rid of all the bullshit as a bonus.

As to legality...

There is very old apocryphal (urban legend) story about US President Andrew Jackson, in connection with an old 19th century law-case which came before the US Supreme Court and Chief Justice John Marshal.

When the Supreme Court ruled in a manner deemed unrealistic by Jackson, the President was cited as having uttered the words...

"Mister Marshall has made his decision. Now let him enforce it."

Meaning, of course, that just because a legal-standing or legal-position exists, does not ensure that it will become substantively operative in the Real World.

This is doubly-true of legal-standings that are overturned by force-of-arms on the battlefield.

As were any former claims by Palestinians upon the land now comprising the modern-day State of Israel.

Victory on the battlefield has set that aside.

It does not matter even if you ARE right.

If that is the case, then, you are "right" about something that is totally UN-ENFORCEABLE and that no longer matters and that is no longer substantively operative in the Real World.

Rather than worrying about being Right, may I suggest that you begin worrying about your brethren getting on with a better life, someplace where they can live without their young being brainwashed and drafted into a terrorist movement with its operations and philosophy and ceremonial rooted in Nazi collaboration and admiration and mimicking.

Don't worry about being Right, 'cause that really doesn't matter any longer.

Worry about staying alive, and improving quality of life, in a setting where life is prized more highly than death.

Old circumstances and old understandings and old legal standings have been swept aside.

So, violations of the law changes the law?

Interesting legal concept.

Got a link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I --- refute your claim.

"It is not the past. Israel has no land now. "

Tinny, why do you continue to repeat this proven absurdity as though it means anything? It's completely irrelevant because it's FICTION.

We understand you don't want Israel to exist - but when you pretend the Partition wasn't legal and *then* complain about Israel not complying with UN Resolutions , the resulting hypocrisy overwhelms any 'point' you might attempt to make.

It does, however, provide a very concrete example of what is indicated by 'Arab intransigence' - so it isn't quite a total loss, however.

Why do you find that to be absurd? That is what I have found in my studies and nobody has refuted my claim. Many have complained but nobody has posted any documents to the contrary.

(COMMENT)

Further, there was no State of Palestine prior to the 1988 Declaration of Independence.

Israel is a sovereign and independent state (since 1948). You may have a dispute as to where the borders are (having been changed by three wars), but you have no standing. The sovereignty of the territory was not the Palestinians to determine; beyond the Partition Plan outlined in General Assembly Resolution 181(II); with those borders now amended by the outcome of combat in the successful defense of Arab Aggression and Arab defiance in the face of UN decisions.

No one has demonstrated to me, by treaty or any other recognized instrument, that Palestine, as a country, existed prior to the Palestinians Declaring Indenpence in 1988.

In that --- you state: "nobody has refuted my claim" --- I respectfully refute your claim.

Most Respectfully,
R

So, where are those documents showing when Israel legally acquired any land?

 

[Hossfly]

1. Is the term "judaism" ever mentioned in the Bible?
2. Is anything besides locations in the Bible supported by any evidence?

Answers, no.

I wonder if this poster has ever put her Snout into the Koran to see that Jerusalem is never mentioned, but is mentioned many, many times in the Bible. Geez, so many of these posters crawling out of the woodwork are such dhimwits. Strange how the Nose has never read about any of the archeological finds that have supported many things in the Bible. Tell us, Nose, do you have a problem with the Jews that you will deny them their religion. I think most of us posting are tolerant enough to feel that everyone is entitled to his or her own religious beliefs and that people shouldn't be murdered because of their beliefs. Do you also have a problem with what Hindus and Buddhists believe in?

 

[Kondor3]

"...So, violations of the law changes the law? Interesting legal concept. Got a link?"

If, by 'violations of the law' in this context, you are referring to Warfare, or, more specifically, the effects of Victory on the Battlefield, then...

Perhaps the Arabs should not have violated the law by attacking the Jews in the first place.

And...

Perhaps we should give the North American continent back to the British, because, after all, we won our Independence from them, and sustained it during a second challenge in the 1812-1815 timeframe, through Victory on the Battlefield.

Those struggles were also 'illegal' in a very real sense at the time that they got underway.

But Victory on the Battlefield changes operative law.

You don't need a 'link'... look around you... examine the history books... contemplate the world we live in.

Victory on the Battlefield changes operative law.

To believe otherwise is to live in a Child's World, or a Fool's Paradise.

None of your old legal arguments matter any longer.

They've been wiped off the table of history by Victory on the Battlefield.

The Jews won.

You lost.

Time to face up to Reality while there is still time to parlay what few scraps of land remain to you, into Cash Value that can be utilized to share amongst and to settle your People elsewhere.

It's over.

Your 'stock' (your bretren's ability to maintain themselves as a people and to form a viable nation-state) has diminished from midrange value to junk-bond -caliber status.

Time to flush-out your portfolio of junk-bond -caliber stocks before they bottom-out at zero.

And they will bottom-out... in the not-too-distant future.

Trying to sell your rag-tag remnants portfolio after they're headed to Beruit or Amman or Damascus or Cairo - with the kids in the back seat and their luggage tied to the top of the car - will be too late.

Don't wait too long.

Your brethren need to wake up and come to grips with the New Reality.

But they won't.

So we will eventually see a new Exodus.

One which will end in dispersal and dissolution and forgetfulness and assimilation, within a handful of generations after it unfolds.

The choices your brethren are making now will prove ruinous for future generations of their progeny.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...So, violations of the law changes the law? Interesting legal concept. Got a link?"

If, by 'violations of the law' in this context, you are referring to Warfare, or, more specifically, the effects of Victory on the Battlefield, then...

Perhaps the Arabs should not have violated the law by attacking the Jews in the first place.

And...

Perhaps we should give the North American continent back to the British, because, after all, we won our Independence from them, and sustained it during a second challenge in the 1812-1815 timeframe, through Victory on the Battlefield.

Those struggles were also 'illegal' in a very real sense at the time that they got underway.

But Victory on the Battlefield changes operative law.

You don't need a 'link'... look around you... examine the history books... contemplate the world we live in.

Victory on the Battlefield changes operative law.

To believe otherwise is to live in a Child's World, or a Fool's Paradise.

None of your old legal arguments matter any longer.

They've been wiped off the table of history by Victory on the Battlefield.

The Jews won.

You lost.

Time to face up to Reality while there is still time to parlay what few scraps of land remain to you, into Cash Value that can be utilized to share amongst and to settle your People elsewhere.

It's over.

Your 'stock' (your bretren's ability to maintain themselves as a people and to form a viable nation-state) has diminished from midrange value to junk-bond -caliber status.

Time to flush-out your portfolio of junk-bond -caliber stocks before they bottom-out at zero.

Which they will, in the not-too-distant future.

Trying to sell your rag-tag remnants portfolio after they're headed to Beruit or Amman or Damascus or Cairo - with the kids in the back seat and their luggage tied to the top of the car - will be too late.

Don't wait too long.

Your brethren need to wake up and come to grips with the New Reality.

But they won't.

So we will eventually see a new Exodus.

One which will end in dispersal and dissolution and forgetfulness and assimilation, within a handful of generations after it unfolds.

The choices your brethren are making now will prove ruinous for future generations of their progeny.

Perhaps the Arabs should not have violated the law by attacking the Jews in the first place.

They didn't.

Perhaps we should give the North American continent back to the British,...

Military conquest was not illegal then. It was when Israel's military conquered the Palestinian civilians.

 

[Kondor3]

Perhaps we should give the North American continent back to the British,...

Military conquest was not illegal then. It was when Israel's military conquered the Palestinian civilians.

And there is the Fatal Weakness in your position, Tinny.

A pathetic, desperate, childish over-reliance upon the legality or illegality of warfare and its outcome, according to International Law.

Tragically, there is nothing that anyone can do, to bring you - and those who think like you - into the Real World - in order to come to practical grips with the dire straits in which your brethren find themselves.

This was never going to end well for your brethren; certainly not after their Arab-neighbor so-called 'patrons' abandoned them after defeats in 1948 and 1967 and 1973, and finally tossed-in the towel and let it go.

But it could have ended better - and it could still end better - with your brethren at least getting some value for their defeat and their pain - had you and your people been able to snap out of your hate-induced coma long enough to spend some time in the Real World, figuring-out how to obtain the maximum yield that could be conjured from your defeat on the battlefield.

It is little wonder that much of the world has given up on the Palestinians and have largely washed their hands of this self-destructive and suicidal and delusional collection of refugees...

Sometimes, people insist upon destroying themselves, against all the good intentions and rock-solid advice of their neighbors and colleagues...

When your brethren find themselves packed-up and on the road, the world will hear a great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but, by then, they will have been written-off as impractical ideologues and fanatics and fools, and, by then, nobody will be listening; glad to see the end of this decades-long tragi-comedy...

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Perhaps we should give the North American continent back to the British,...

Military conquest was not illegal then. It was when Israel's military conquered the Palestinian civilians.

And there is the Fatal Weakness in your position, Tinny.

A pathetic, desperate, childish over-reliance upon the legality or illegality of warfare and its outcome, according to International Law.

Tragically, there is nothing that anyone can do, to bring you - and those who think like you - into the Real World - in order to come to practical grips with the dire straits in which your brethren find themselves.

This was never going to end well for your brethren; certainly not after their Arab-neighbor so-called 'patrons' abandoned them after defeats in 1958 and 1967 and 1973, and finally tossed-in the towel and let it go.

But it could have ended better - and it could still end better - with your brethren at least getting some value for their defeat and their pain - had you and your people been able to snap out of your hate-induced coma long enough to spend some time in the Real World, figuring-out how to obtain the maximum yield that could be obtained from your defeat on the battlefield.

It is little wonder that much of the world has given up on the Palestinians and have largely washed their hands of this self-destructive and suicidal and delusional collection of refugees...

Sometimes, people insist upon destroying themselves, against all the good intentions and rock-solid advice of their neighbors and colleagues...

When your brethren find themselves packed-up and on the road, the world will hear a great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but, by then, they will have been written-off as impractical ideologues and fanatics and fools, and, by then, nobody will be listening; glad to see the end of this decades-long tragi-comedy...

And may that time come speedily.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Perhaps we should give the North American continent back to the British,...

Military conquest was not illegal then. It was when Israel's military conquered the Palestinian civilians.

And there is the Fatal Weakness in your position, Tinny.

A pathetic, desperate, childish over-reliance upon the legality or illegality of warfare and its outcome, according to International Law.

Tragically, there is nothing that anyone can do, to bring you - and those who think like you - into the Real World - in order to come to practical grips with the dire straits in which your brethren find themselves.

This was never going to end well for your brethren; certainly not after their Arab-neighbor so-called 'patrons' abandoned them after defeats in 1948 and 1967 and 1973, and finally tossed-in the towel and let it go.

But it could have ended better - and it could still end better - with your brethren at least getting some value for their defeat and their pain - had you and your people been able to snap out of your hate-induced coma long enough to spend some time in the Real World, figuring-out how to obtain the maximum yield that could be conjured from your defeat on the battlefield.

It is little wonder that much of the world has given up on the Palestinians and have largely washed their hands of this self-destructive and suicidal and delusional collection of refugees...

Sometimes, people insist upon destroying themselves, against all the good intentions and rock-solid advice of their neighbors and colleagues...

When your brethren find themselves packed-up and on the road, the world will hear a great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but, by then, they will have been written-off as impractical ideologues and fanatics and fools, and, by then, nobody will be listening; glad to see the end of this decades-long tragi-comedy...

What part of all that blabber refutes my point?

 

[Kondor3]

"...What part of all that blabber refutes my point?"

Sigh... is there a psychiatrist in the house?

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...What part of all that blabber refutes my point?"

Sigh... is there a psychiatrist in the house?

Nice duck.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Perhaps we should give the North American continent back to the British,...

Military conquest was not illegal then. It was when Israel's military conquered the Palestinian civilians.

And there is the Fatal Weakness in your position, Tinny.

A pathetic, desperate, childish over-reliance upon the legality or illegality of warfare and its outcome, according to International Law.

Tragically, there is nothing that anyone can do, to bring you - and those who think like you - into the Real World - in order to come to practical grips with the dire straits in which your brethren find themselves.

This was never going to end well for your brethren; certainly not after their Arab-neighbor so-called 'patrons' abandoned them after defeats in 1948 and 1967 and 1973, and finally tossed-in the towel and let it go.

But it could have ended better - and it could still end better - with your brethren at least getting some value for their defeat and their pain - had you and your people been able to snap out of your hate-induced coma long enough to spend some time in the Real World, figuring-out how to obtain the maximum yield that could be conjured from your defeat on the battlefield.

It is little wonder that much of the world has given up on the Palestinians and have largely washed their hands of this self-destructive and suicidal and delusional collection of refugees...

Sometimes, people insist upon destroying themselves, against all the good intentions and rock-solid advice of their neighbors and colleagues...

When your brethren find themselves packed-up and on the road, the world will hear a great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but, by then, they will have been written-off as impractical ideologues and fanatics and fools, and, by then, nobody will be listening; glad to see the end of this decades-long tragi-comedy...

Who's that guy in the picture?

 

[Kondor3]

"...What part of all that blabber refutes my point?"

Sigh... is there a psychiatrist in the house?

Nice duck.

When someone says to you...

"...Let's say, for the moment, that you ARE right..."

That is hardly ducking the issue, nor evading the possibility that you are, indeed, right.

You (the Palestinians) are right.

The Jews (Israelis) are right.

You are both right, in many of your old legal and political arguments.

But that doesn't matter.

I will say this one more time...

"...Victory on the battlefield has set that aside..."

You can be right all the live-long day...

And STILL be on the losing end of history, as you now are...

I, on the other hand, am not obliged to either prove nor disprove your legal contentions...

And I have NOT even attempted to...

It would be a waste of time...

Because they no longer matter...

I merely demonstrate to you that the Rightness or Wrongness of your legal contentions is immaterial and no longer plays a substantive part in the Realities of 2013 and beyond...

You (and your brethren in Palestine) are not living in the same Reality as everybody else...

Pretending like any of that old shit signifies in today's Reality...

Rightly or wrongly, I believe you (and they) to be delusional in this context...

In a very real and clinical sense...

Delusional...

Thus, the call for a psychiatrist...

 

[Kondor3]

"...Who's that guy in the picture?"

Just an image that I dug-up from the Google Image page, when I typed "Pontius Pilate wash hands" into the Search Engine page...

 

[Roudy]

"...One of the final status issues that must be negotiated is how much of Palestine are the Palestinians going to give to Israel. It is not old at all."

Your brethren will have plenty of time to contemplate such Alternate Reality game-elements on the road to Amman and Beirut and Damascus and Cairo, baggage tied to the top of their cars, and, of course, in the long centuries to follow.

Indeed, Israel has been doing the same thing for 65 years and has not won yet. The more Israel pushes the more people there are to push back. Ten to fifteen years ago there was nobody defending the Palestinians. Now there are many growing organizations. Even some governments are starting to wobble.

Indeed, Israel has been "loosing" and the so called Palestinians have been "winning". I don't think Israel can take any more of this loosing.

 

[Hossfly]

"...So, violations of the law changes the law? Interesting legal concept. Got a link?"

If, by 'violations of the law' in this context, you are referring to Warfare, or, more specifically, the effects of Victory on the Battlefield, then...

Perhaps the Arabs should not have violated the law by attacking the Jews in the first place.

And...

Perhaps we should give the North American continent back to the British, because, after all, we won our Independence from them, and sustained it during a second challenge in the 1812-1815 timeframe, through Victory on the Battlefield.

Those struggles were also 'illegal' in a very real sense at the time that they got underway.

But Victory on the Battlefield changes operative law.

You don't need a 'link'... look around you... examine the history books... contemplate the world we live in.

Victory on the Battlefield changes operative law.

To believe otherwise is to live in a Child's World, or a Fool's Paradise.

None of your old legal arguments matter any longer.

They've been wiped off the table of history by Victory on the Battlefield.

The Jews won.

You lost.

Time to face up to Reality while there is still time to parlay what few scraps of land remain to you, into Cash Value that can be utilized to share amongst and to settle your People elsewhere.

It's over.

Your 'stock' (your bretren's ability to maintain themselves as a people and to form a viable nation-state) has diminished from midrange value to junk-bond -caliber status.

Time to flush-out your portfolio of junk-bond -caliber stocks before they bottom-out at zero.

Which they will, in the not-too-distant future.

Trying to sell your rag-tag remnants portfolio after they're headed to Beruit or Amman or Damascus or Cairo - with the kids in the back seat and their luggage tied to the top of the car - will be too late.

Don't wait too long.

Your brethren need to wake up and come to grips with the New Reality.

But they won't.

So we will eventually see a new Exodus.

One which will end in dispersal and dissolution and forgetfulness and assimilation, within a handful of generations after it unfolds.

The choices your brethren are making now will prove ruinous for future generations of their progeny.

Perhaps the Arabs should not have violated the law by attacking the Jews in the first place.

They didn't.

Perhaps we should give the North American continent back to the British,...

Military conquest was not illegal then. It was when Israel's military conquered the Palestinian civilians.

So tell us, Tinnie, if there were no fighting in Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood were still in charge, do you think many of your fellow Gazans would have heeded the call by the Egyptian official who said the Gazans should come back to Egypt where they belong. Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know just how many poor "Palestinians" came from each impoverished Middle East country when the Jews had jobs for them. They seemed to have come in droves then, according to British officials. In a way, you can't blame them just as you can't blame the Muslims who are leaving their impoverished countries nowadays for greener field.

 

[P F Tinmore]

If, by 'violations of the law' in this context, you are referring to Warfare, or, more specifically, the effects of Victory on the Battlefield, then...

Perhaps the Arabs should not have violated the law by attacking the Jews in the first place.

And...

Perhaps we should give the North American continent back to the British, because, after all, we won our Independence from them, and sustained it during a second challenge in the 1812-1815 timeframe, through Victory on the Battlefield.

Those struggles were also 'illegal' in a very real sense at the time that they got underway.

But Victory on the Battlefield changes operative law.

You don't need a 'link'... look around you... examine the history books... contemplate the world we live in.

Victory on the Battlefield changes operative law.

To believe otherwise is to live in a Child's World, or a Fool's Paradise.

None of your old legal arguments matter any longer.

They've been wiped off the table of history by Victory on the Battlefield.

The Jews won.

You lost.

Time to face up to Reality while there is still time to parlay what few scraps of land remain to you, into Cash Value that can be utilized to share amongst and to settle your People elsewhere.

It's over.

Your 'stock' (your bretren's ability to maintain themselves as a people and to form a viable nation-state) has diminished from midrange value to junk-bond -caliber status.

Time to flush-out your portfolio of junk-bond -caliber stocks before they bottom-out at zero.

Which they will, in the not-too-distant future.

Trying to sell your rag-tag remnants portfolio after they're headed to Beruit or Amman or Damascus or Cairo - with the kids in the back seat and their luggage tied to the top of the car - will be too late.

Don't wait too long.

Your brethren need to wake up and come to grips with the New Reality.

But they won't.

So we will eventually see a new Exodus.

One which will end in dispersal and dissolution and forgetfulness and assimilation, within a handful of generations after it unfolds.

The choices your brethren are making now will prove ruinous for future generations of their progeny.

They didn't.

Perhaps we should give the North American continent back to the British,...

Military conquest was not illegal then. It was when Israel's military conquered the Palestinian civilians.

So tell us, Tinnie, if there were no fighting in Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood were still in charge, do you think many of your fellow Gazans would have heeded the call by the Egyptian official who said the Gazans should come back to Egypt where they belong. Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know just how many poor "Palestinians" came from each impoverished Middle East country when the Jews had jobs for them. They seemed to have come in droves then, according to British officials. In a way, you can't blame them just as you can't blame the Muslims who are leaving their impoverished countries nowadays for greener field.

The Arab population declined from about 97% at the turn of the century to about 65% by 1947.

Where are the "droves" that you are talking about?

 

[Roudy]

They didn't.



Military conquest was not illegal then. It was when Israel's military conquered the Palestinian civilians.

So tell us, Tinnie, if there were no fighting in Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood were still in charge, do you think many of your fellow Gazans would have heeded the call by the Egyptian official who said the Gazans should come back to Egypt where they belong. Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know just how many poor "Palestinians" came from each impoverished Middle East country when the Jews had jobs for them. They seemed to have come in droves then, according to British officials. In a way, you can't blame them just as you can't blame the Muslims who are leaving their impoverished countries nowadays for greener field.

The Arab population declined from about 97% at the turn of the century to about 65% by 1947.

Where are the "droves" that you are talking about?

The same droves that the British encouraged, and recorded. It is a fact that the region was invaded by Arabs from neighboring lands. You know where these same Arabs are now? Most of them became part of what was supposed to Arab Palestine aka JORDAN (majority of Jordanians are Palestinians) and some fled during a war in which they joined their brethren in trying to destroy the Jewish state. Let's not forget that the war was never about creating this mythical Palestine, it would about just eliminating the Jewish state of the map and "pushing the Jews into the sea". Things didn't work out apparently.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

They didn't.



Military conquest was not illegal then. It was when Israel's military conquered the Palestinian civilians.

So tell us, Tinnie, if there were no fighting in Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood were still in charge, do you think many of your fellow Gazans would have heeded the call by the Egyptian official who said the Gazans should come back to Egypt where they belong. Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know just how many poor "Palestinians" came from each impoverished Middle East country when the Jews had jobs for them. They seemed to have come in droves then, according to British officials. In a way, you can't blame them just as you can't blame the Muslims who are leaving their impoverished countries nowadays for greener field.

The Arab population declined from about 97% at the turn of the century to about 65% by 1947.

Where are the "droves" that you are talking about?

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

So tell us, Tinnie, if there were no fighting in Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood were still in charge, do you think many of your fellow Gazans would have heeded the call by the Egyptian official who said the Gazans should come back to Egypt where they belong. Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know just how many poor "Palestinians" came from each impoverished Middle East country when the Jews had jobs for them. They seemed to have come in droves then, according to British officials. In a way, you can't blame them just as you can't blame the Muslims who are leaving their impoverished countries nowadays for greener field.

The Arab population declined from about 97% at the turn of the century to about 65% by 1947.

Where are the "droves" that you are talking about?

Link?

Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Hoffstra]

The Israelis destroyed hundreds of Mosques in Israel after expelling hundreds of thousands of Arabs.

They better learn their own history before they demand anything from others.