How can we be sure Judaism's holy sites will be safe?

[P F Tinmore]

"...It is inadmissible to acquire land through the threat or use of force. Israel has acquired all of its land at the point of a gun. Consequently, Israel has yet to legally acquire any land. It still has no borders. This could be a problem down the road."

Tinny, I cannot emphasize this often enough.

Perhaps, one of these days, the truth of what I'm trying to convey to you will sink-in.

None of that old shit matters.

Possession matters... military power matters... reality matters.

You (and the Palestinians living there) are living in a dream world and state of denial.

Looking at the map, and the few slivers of land left to you, and the rapid and accelerating pace of Palestinian land-control shrinkage, and the rapid and accelerating pace of annexation and settlement and barrier-building, you are running out of time.

You can either continue down the path that you have have been pursuing for the past 65 years (to no avail) and continue to cling to the past and to old and useless and inopertive legal standings and assumptions...

Or you can rejoin the Reality that the rest of the world inhabits, and recognize just how close to the brink of the abyss you are, with respect to Annexation and Expulsion, and spend your remaining time more wisely, trying to preserve what little is left, or making arrangements to get the hell outta Dodge and set up in Lebanon and Jordan while there is still time - before they're forcibly packed-up and put on the road to Amman and Beirut and Damascus and Cairo.

Under such circumstances, how would intelligent people spend what little time is left?

Pointlessly moaning and bitching about the past, or taking care of business in the here-and-now, cutting the best deal they can, from an increasingly weak and fluff poker-hand?

Smart Vegas Money is on Reality, not dwelling in the past.

But I doubt that your 'brethren' will be able to get their heads out of their backsides long enough to make that transition; at least until it's too late and they find themselves driving away with their luggage tied to the top of their cars.

It is not the past. Israel has no land now.

 

[Kondor3]

"...It is not the past. Israel has no land now."

Tinny... I don't mean this as 'unkindly' as this is going to sound, but you, mine good colleague, and those who think like you in this context, are living in a child's Alternate Reality.

And, because this is the case, and because that is so glaringly obvious to those who do not have your vested interest in an outcome that is now never going to materialize, and because you-and-yours cannot let old legal arguments go, and face the realities of today, and the harsh prospects ahead of you in the very, very near future...

Your brethren will, indeed, find themselves on the road to Beirut and Amman and Cairo and Damascus, kids in the back of the car, luggage tied to the top of the car, asking yourselves what-the-hell just happened, as they make their way to their new homes; much poorer in both money and political leverage than they would have been had they faced reality sooner.

It's unfortunate, but people cannot stop other people from self-destructing, when they are so obviously and fervently determined to commit suicide as a polity.

You have been warned - by me - and by many others.

You will continue to ignore the warnings until you-and-yours are put on the road.

You refuse to listen, and to acknowledge the Reality of the world that you live in.

Your brethren and their children and grandchlidren and great-grandchlidren will pay the price for your oh-so-futile and oh-so-preventable folly.

You have been warned.

Enjoy your destruction as a polity and as a so-called Johnny-come-lately 'People'.

Perhaps Pontius Pilate had the right idea, after all, in washing his hands of someone so obviously suicidal and intent upon self-destruction.

Have a nice death (as a People).

 

[RoccoR]

Bloodrock44, et al,

No source.

Kondor3, et al,

As usual, there is truth in what you say. I'm just not sure it is some universal truth.

But, to The Faithful (in connection with any of those aforementioned cities), possession of those cities (and custody of their holy places) is the stuff bloody wars are made of.

(COMMENT)

Yes, we agree. The question becomes --- how do you break the cycle of violence?


(COMMENT)

I agree. At least my perceptions doesn't count. But I would have thought that in the last two Millennium, man would have learned just a little about the reasonableness of this sort of attachment.

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"
......................................................................................................Synoptic Gospels
​

In this, the Jewish affinity for and insistent hold upon Jerusalem is no less fierce nor less comprehendable than those other environs I've referenced.

Propose to the Israeli Jews the surrender of a Holy City that they already possess - with much of it designated as the Spoils of Victory in the 1967 War that their antagonists provoked - and which they have been pursuing as a People for some 1,900 years before winning it back - and propose to them that they entrust their Holy-of-Holies to some half-assed International Authority for as long as that stays on its feet, anyway - and the Proposer is likely to be laughed off the podium and ridden out of Dodge on a rail.

That one's not gonna fly, I fear... not a snowball's chance in hell.

That's their call... not mine... but the position I've just articulated is the odds-on favorite to be paraphrase-echoed by the folks to DO make such decisions over there.

(COMMENT)

Remember, the Tabernacle in the (First) Temple of Jerusalem is no more; long since destroyed. There was no Divine Presence in the reproduction of the Second Temple; which is not exactly a known location today. Because the Third Temple is not built yet, the reproduction is a void; the actual Holy of Holies will not be restored until the Temple is rebuilt; and there will still be no Divine Presence (no Ark of the Covenant).

Most Respectfully,
R

Just curious. What is your source there will be no Ark?

(COMMENT)

No one seems to know where the "Ark" is, or has been, since the fall of the First Temple. Why should it appear now?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

Oh, and, Rocco, I feel responsible for starting this 'Ark' business, by mentioning a Holy-of-Holies.

When I made that reference, I was referring to the City of Jerusalem at-large, as the holiest (most sacred or emotionally and spiritually compelling) of their holdings.

It was my bad luck to choose a label that conjured-up other imagery.

I did not mean to sidetrack folks onto a search for The Ark (which seems unlikely to ever surface again) or references to Temple A or B.

I was merely referring to the 'sacred' status of the City of Jerusalem, to adherents of Judaism.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...It is not the past. Israel has no land now."

Tinny... I don't mean this as 'unkindly' as this is going to sound, but you, mine good colleague, and those who think like you in this context, are living in a child's Alternate Reality.

And, because this is the case, and because that is so glaringly obvious to those who do not have your vested interest in an outcome that is now never going to materialize, and because you-and-yours cannot let old legal arguments go, and face the realities of today, and the harsh prospects ahead of you in the very, very near future...

Your brethren will, indeed, find themselves on the road to Beirut and Amman and Cairo and Damascus, kids in the back of the car, luggage tied to the top of the car, asking yourselves what-the-hell just happened, as they make their way to their new homes; much poorer in both money and political leverage than they would have been had they faced reality sooner.

It's unfortunate, but people cannot stop other people from self-destructing, when they are so obviously and fervently determined to commit suicide as a polity.

You have been warned - by me - and by many others.

You will continue to ignore the warnings until you-and-yours are put on the road.

You refuse to listen, and to acknowledge the Reality of the world that you live in.

Your brethren and their children and grandchlidren and great-grandchlidren will pay the price for your oh-so-futile and oh-so-preventable folly.

You have been warned.

Enjoy your destruction as a polity and as a so-called Johnny-come-lately 'People'.

Perhaps Pontius Pilate had the right idea, after all, in washing his hands of someone so obviously suicidal and intent upon self-destruction.

Have a nice death (as a People).

One of the final status issues that must be negotiated is how much of Palestine are the Palestinians going to give to Israel. It is not old at all.

 

[Kondor3]

"...One of the final status issues that must be negotiated is how much of Palestine are the Palestinians going to give to Israel. It is not old at all."

Your brethren will have plenty of time to contemplate such Alternate Reality game-elements on the road to Amman and Beirut and Damascus and Cairo, baggage tied to the top of their cars, and, of course, in the long centuries to follow.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...One of the final status issues that must be negotiated is how much of Palestine are the Palestinians going to give to Israel. It is not old at all."

Your brethren will have plenty of time to contemplate such Alternate Reality game-elements on the road to Amman and Beirut and Damascus and Cairo, baggage tied to the top of their cars, and, of course, in the long centuries to follow.

Indeed, Israel has been doing the same thing for 65 years and has not won yet. The more Israel pushes the more people there are to push back. Ten to fifteen years ago there was nobody defending the Palestinians. Now there are many growing organizations. Even some governments are starting to wobble.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Indeed, Israel has been doing the same thing for 65 years and has not won yet..."

Tick... tick... tick...

"...The more Israel pushes the more people there are to push back. Ten to fifteen years ago there was nobody defending the Palestinians. Now there are many growing organizations. Even some governments are starting to wobble."

Too little, too late... the last plaintive defiance and desperate, foolish, childish hopes of a dying - almost stillborn - polity...

But it doesn't signify nor change the logical and inevitable outcome...

Israeli success and Palestinian dissolution...

We're just about 'there' already...

Basically, you're screwed...

And you are nearly out of time, to do anything about it...

 

[Bloodrock44]

Bloodrock44, et al,

No source.

Kondor3, et al,

As usual, there is truth in what you say. I'm just not sure it is some universal truth.


(COMMENT)

Yes, we agree. The question becomes --- how do you break the cycle of violence?


(COMMENT)

I agree. At least my perceptions doesn't count. But I would have thought that in the last two Millennium, man would have learned just a little about the reasonableness of this sort of attachment.

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"
......................................................................................................Synoptic Gospels
​

(COMMENT)

Remember, the Tabernacle in the (First) Temple of Jerusalem is no more; long since destroyed. There was no Divine Presence in the reproduction of the Second Temple; which is not exactly a known location today. Because the Third Temple is not built yet, the reproduction is a void; the actual Holy of Holies will not be restored until the Temple is rebuilt; and there will still be no Divine Presence (no Ark of the Covenant).

Most Respectfully,
R

Just curious. What is your source there will be no Ark?

(COMMENT)

No one seems to know where the "Ark" is, or has been, since the fall of the First Temple. Why should it appear now?

Most Respectfully,
R

It won't. I did a little research. It was either taken to Babylon or hidden to keep it from being taken. According to Jeremiah 3:16 it will not reappear.

16 In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land,” declares the Lord, “people will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of the Lord.’ It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made.

 

[sealadaigh]

Price tag: Mosque torched in Upper Galilee


Vandalism in north: 'Revenge' and 'price tag' spray-painted on mosque in Tuba Zangaria overnight. Local residents hold protests, clash with security forces. Police raise alert level in northern district for fear of violent response

Price tag: Mosque torched in Upper Galilee

Vandalism in north: 'Revenge' and 'price tag' spray-painted on mosque in Tuba Zangaria overnight. Local residents hold protests, clash with security forces. Police raise alert level in northern district for fear of violent response


A mosque in the town of Tuba Zangaria east of Rosh Pina was torched overnight Monday by unknown assailants. The words "price tag", "revenge" and "Palmer" – the last name of the father and son killed in a terror attack in Kiryat Arba last month – were spray-painted at the scene. Police fear a violent outburst and have therefore raised the alert level in Israel's northern district.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4130148,00.html

let's not worry about the desecration of anything other than jewish religious sites?

 

[MHunterB]

"It is not the past. Israel has no land now. "

Tinny, why do you continue to repeat this proven absurdity as though it means anything? It's completely irrelevant because it's FICTION.

We understand you don't want Israel to exist - but when you pretend the Partition wasn't legal and *then* complain about Israel not complying with UN Resolutions , the resulting hypocrisy overwhelms any 'point' you might attempt to make.

It does, however, provide a very concrete example of what is indicated by 'Arab intransigence' - so it isn't quite a total loss, however.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"It is not the past. Israel has no land now. "

Tinny, why do you continue to repeat this proven absurdity as though it means anything? It's completely irrelevant because it's FICTION.

We understand you don't want Israel to exist - but when you pretend the Partition wasn't legal and *then* complain about Israel not complying with UN Resolutions , the resulting hypocrisy overwhelms any 'point' you might attempt to make.

It does, however, provide a very concrete example of what is indicated by 'Arab intransigence' - so it isn't quite a total loss, however.

Why do you find that to be absurd? That is what I have found in my studies and nobody has refuted my claim. Many have complained but nobody has posted any documents to the contrary.

 

[Snouter]

1. Is the term "judaism" ever mentioned in the Bible?
2. Is anything besides locations in the Bible supported by any evidence?

Answers, no.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

1. Is the term "judaism" ever mentioned in the Bible?
2. Is anything besides locations in the Bible supported by any evidence?

Answers, no.

1. No, but so what? I don't believe Christianity is mentioned in the New Testament or that Islam is mentioned in the Quran either. Judah, as a country, is mentioned though.
2. Is this question in regards to burial sites, or about any events in the Bible? Burial sites are supported by traditions that are centuries old. Events have been substantiated by archeology, including coins, pottery and seals bearing the the inscriptions of the "House of David'.

 

[Lipush]

1. Is the term "judaism" ever mentioned in the Bible?
2. Is anything besides locations in the Bible supported by any evidence?

Answers, no.

So?...

 

[Kondor3]

1. Is the term "judaism" ever mentioned in the Bible?
2. Is anything besides locations in the Bible supported by any evidence?

Answers, no.

Difficult to tell, but, is this your roundabout way of asking whether there is any proof that the Jews lived-in and controlled Israel-Judea, in Antiquity? Or stating that they did not?

If so, then, the historical chronicles and monumental statuary and stele of the Persians and Egyptians and Greeks and Romans and the rest of that lot, all reference the Hebrews or Jews sufficiently so as to lend credence to the idea that the Jews lived there and ruled there.

And, of course, the findings of scores of archeologists working in modern-day Israel-Palestine also lend just a wee bit o' credence to the idea that the Jews lived there and ruled there.

But you are entitled to believe and declare what you like. Just don't be overly surprised when you are either laughed off the podium or ignored in such a context.

 

[Kondor3]

"It is not the past. Israel has no land now. "

Tinny, why do you continue to repeat this proven absurdity as though it means anything? It's completely irrelevant because it's FICTION.

We understand you don't want Israel to exist - but when you pretend the Partition wasn't legal and *then* complain about Israel not complying with UN Resolutions , the resulting hypocrisy overwhelms any 'point' you might attempt to make.

It does, however, provide a very concrete example of what is indicated by 'Arab intransigence' - so it isn't quite a total loss, however.

Why do you find that to be absurd? That is what I have found in my studies and nobody has refuted my claim. Many have complained but nobody has posted any documents to the contrary.

Even if it's NOT irrelevant.

It doesn't signify.

It has no operative and controlling influence over what is happening or what is going to happen.

Victory on the battlefield tends to cancel-out old legal standings and positions.

It cuts right through the Gordian Knot - it cuts right through the bullshit - to sweep aside old complications and barriers.

To the victor go the spoils.

Vae victus.

Your time (and that of your brethren in Palestine) would be far better spent in contemplating where they are going to move to and how they are going to begin new lives.

Because a Fresh Start, in new lands, is their best bet now.

As a matter of fact, it's their ONLY bet.

They can leave of their own accord, or they can dumbly sit-around and continue to be squeezed off what little is left of their land, until, finally, and in the not-too-distant future, they find themselves being evicted and expelled, and on the road to Beruit or Amman or Damascus or Cairo or the like.

Smart Vegas Money is on getting the hell outta Dodge while there's still time.

Better for the kids that way, certainly.

It's over.

Leave.

Before you're kicked out at gunpoint.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"It is not the past. Israel has no land now. "

Tinny, why do you continue to repeat this proven absurdity as though it means anything? It's completely irrelevant because it's FICTION.

We understand you don't want Israel to exist - but when you pretend the Partition wasn't legal and *then* complain about Israel not complying with UN Resolutions , the resulting hypocrisy overwhelms any 'point' you might attempt to make.

It does, however, provide a very concrete example of what is indicated by 'Arab intransigence' - so it isn't quite a total loss, however.

Why do you find that to be absurd? That is what I have found in my studies and nobody has refuted my claim. Many have complained but nobody has posted any documents to the contrary.

Even if it's NOT irrelevant.

It doesn't signify.

It has no operative and controlling influence over what is happening or what is going to happen.

Victory on the battlefield tends to cancel-out old legal standings and positions.

It cuts right through the Gordian Knot - it cuts right through the bullshit - to sweep aside old complications and barriers.

To the victor go the spoils.

Vae victus.

Your time (and that of your brethren in Palestine) would be far better spent in contemplating where they are going to move to and how they are going to begin new lives.

Because a Fresh Start, in new lands, is their best bet now.

As a matter of fact, it's their ONLY bet.

They can leave of their own accord, or they can dumbly sit-around and continue to be squeezed off what little is left of their land, until, finally, and in the not-too-distant future, they find themselves being evicted and expelled, and on the road to Beruit or Amman or Damascus or Cairo or the like.

Smart Vegas Money is on getting the hell outta Dodge while there's still time.

Better for the kids that way, certainly.

It's over.

Leave.

Before you're kicked out at gunpoint.

Lots of blabber but nothing to prove me wrong.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I --- refute your claim.

"It is not the past. Israel has no land now. "

Tinny, why do you continue to repeat this proven absurdity as though it means anything? It's completely irrelevant because it's FICTION.

We understand you don't want Israel to exist - but when you pretend the Partition wasn't legal and *then* complain about Israel not complying with UN Resolutions , the resulting hypocrisy overwhelms any 'point' you might attempt to make.

It does, however, provide a very concrete example of what is indicated by 'Arab intransigence' - so it isn't quite a total loss, however.

Why do you find that to be absurd? That is what I have found in my studies and nobody has refuted my claim. Many have complained but nobody has posted any documents to the contrary.

(COMMENT)

Further, there was no State of Palestine prior to the 1988 Declaration of Independence.

Israel is a sovereign and independent state (since 1948). You may have a dispute as to where the borders are (having been changed by three wars), but you have no standing. The sovereignty of the territory was not the Palestinians to determine; beyond the Partition Plan outlined in General Assembly Resolution 181(II); with those borders now amended by the outcome of combat in the successful defense of Arab Aggression and Arab defiance in the face of UN decisions.

No one has demonstrated to me, by treaty or any other recognized instrument, that Palestine, as a country, existed prior to the Palestinians Declaring Indenpence in 1988.

In that --- you state: "nobody has refuted my claim" --- I respectfully refute your claim.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

"...Lots of blabber but nothing to prove me wrong."

You really and truly don't get it, do you, Tinny?

You might be wrong.

You might be right.

But either way, it doesn't matter in the slightest.

Let's say, for the moment, that you ARE right.

Victory on the battlefield has set that aside.

Old circumstances and old understandings and old legal standings have been swept aside.

The battlefield is the Court of Last Resort for any two opposing parties who cannot come to an agreement any other way.

It has been thus for Mankind since time immemorial, and we, ourselves, along with much of the rest of Mankind, continue to exercise that option every so often, as needed.

Rather like a good purgative, to flush-out the digestive tract.

Gets rid of the blockage and gets rid of all the bullshit as a bonus.

As to legality...

There is very old apocryphal (urban legend) story about US President Andrew Jackson, in connection with an old 19th century law-case which came before the US Supreme Court and Chief Justice John Marshal.

When the Supreme Court ruled in a manner deemed unrealistic by Jackson, the President was cited as having uttered the words...

"Mister Marshall has made his decision. Now let him enforce it."

Meaning, of course, that just because a legal-standing or legal-position exists, does not ensure that it will become substantively operative in the Real World.

This is doubly-true of legal-standings that are overturned by force-of-arms on the battlefield.

As were any former claims by Palestinians upon the land now comprising the modern-day State of Israel.

Victory on the battlefield has set that aside.

It does not matter even if you ARE right.

If that is the case, then, you are "right" about something that is totally UN-ENFORCEABLE and that no longer matters and that is no longer substantively operative in the Real World.

Rather than worrying about being Right, may I suggest that you begin worrying about your brethren getting on with a better life, someplace where they can live without their young being brainwashed and drafted into a terrorist movement with its operations and philosophy and ceremonial rooted in Nazi collaboration and admiration and mimicking.

Don't worry about being Right, 'cause that really doesn't matter any longer.

Worry about staying alive, and improving quality of life, in a setting where life is prized more highly than death.