How Can We Have Laws of Science Without Design?

[edthecynic]

Yeah, it just happened. What theologians in Christendom have been saying for two millennia just happened to have been true, and what atheists theorized (Steady State Theory) was wrong just so happens.

Yeah, right. The energy just came out of no where; that makes total sense.

You don't understand half the things I post to you, misread half of the rest and still sit there all so smug and certain that God had nothing to do with it because science cant prove He did.

Well science cannot prove He did not either.

Either we are just lucky as hell things all fell into place or God guided events.

Your choice, but you live with the choice in so many ways I doubt you ever considered.

You are violating the First Law of Thermodynamics again as well as deliberately misrepresenting science. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Energy has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity, only its form will change. Energy does not come or go from nowhere. Energy IS!

And yet with the Big Bang massive amounts of energy and mass simply popped into being, from where or how we don't know.

But you are certain that whatever and however it came about it absolutely had nothing to do with God! lol

Whatever caused the massive energy explosion that created our universe, dude, it is not covered under the laws of thermodynamics WITHIN OUR UNIVERSE. This by necessity has to involve the transfer of energy to what became our universe.

The laws of thermodynamics are not written to cover such events and so do not apply, I would think. For all energy exchanges and transformations within our universe, sure, but the people that wrote the laws of thermodynamics did not contemplate the transfer of energy from one universe to another.

So yes, we have a net gain in energy in our universe, but it left another or was generated in some other fashion.

Repeating your lie does not make it true. Even assuming already existing energy was "transferred" from an unproven other universe does not mean that energy was created.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You are violating the First Law of Thermodynamics again as well as deliberately misrepresenting science. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Energy has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity, only its form will change. Energy does not come or go from nowhere. Energy IS!

And yet with the Big Bang massive amounts of energy and mass simply popped into being, from where or how we don't know.

But you are certain that whatever and however it came about it absolutely had nothing to do with God! lol

Whatever caused the massive energy explosion that created our universe, dude, it is not covered under the laws of thermodynamics WITHIN OUR UNIVERSE. This by necessity has to involve the transfer of energy to what became our universe.

The laws of thermodynamics are not written to cover such events and so do not apply, I would think. For all energy exchanges and transformations within our universe, sure, but the people that wrote the laws of thermodynamics did not contemplate the transfer of energy from one universe to another.

So yes, we have a net gain in energy in our universe, but it left another or was generated in some other fashion.

Repeating your lie does not make it true.

Lol, what is a lie, ed?

Even assuming already existing energy was "transferred" from an unproven other universe does not mean that energy was created.

From the perspective of an observer in THIS universe it most certainly does mean that.

 

[edthecynic]

And yet with the Big Bang massive amounts of energy and mass simply popped into being, from where or how we don't know.

But you are certain that whatever and however it came about it absolutely had nothing to do with God! lol

Whatever caused the massive energy explosion that created our universe, dude, it is not covered under the laws of thermodynamics WITHIN OUR UNIVERSE. This by necessity has to involve the transfer of energy to what became our universe.

The laws of thermodynamics are not written to cover such events and so do not apply, I would think. For all energy exchanges and transformations within our universe, sure, but the people that wrote the laws of thermodynamics did not contemplate the transfer of energy from one universe to another.

So yes, we have a net gain in energy in our universe, but it left another or was generated in some other fashion.

Repeating your lie does not make it true.

Lol, what is a lie, ed?

Even assuming already existing energy was "transferred" from an unproven other universe does not mean that energy was created.

From the perspective of an observer in THIS universe it most certainly does mean that.

A "transfer" of energy is not a creation of energy from any perspective. You can stomp your feet all you want, but the proven FLoT says energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Repeating your lie does not make it true.

Lol, what is a lie, ed?

Even assuming already existing energy was "transferred" from an unproven other universe does not mean that energy was created.

From the perspective of an observer in THIS universe it most certainly does mean that.

A "transfer" of energy is not a creation of energy from any perspective.

No, Ed, it would appear to be a creation of energy from someone in our universe. How would they see it coming in from another universe?

Oh, wait, you mean that since you have already determined that it came from somewhere, you rule out creation of energy in this unusual situation right from the start.

How open minded of you, libtard.

You can stomp your feet all you want, but the proven FLoT says energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

Yes, in THIS universe.

Can you prove that applies to any and all universes?

No, you cannot, but you ASSume it because of your philosophical prejudices and not science.

Stupid ass hat, go borrow a brain or steal one, cause this topic is stretching your old worn out brain a bit too much, apparently.

 

[orogenicman]

Lol, what is a lie, ed?



From the perspective of an observer in THIS universe it most certainly does mean that.

A "transfer" of energy is not a creation of energy from any perspective.

No, Ed, it would appear to be a creation of energy from someone in our universe. How would they see it coming in from another universe?

Oh, wait, you mean that since you have already determined that it came from somewhere, you rule out creation of energy in this unusual situation right from the start.

How open minded of you, libtard.

You can stomp your feet all you want, but the proven FLoT says energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

Yes, in THIS universe.

Can you prove that applies to any and all universes?

No, you cannot, but you ASSume it because of your philosophical prejudices and not science.

Stupid ass hat, go borrow a brain or steal one, cause this topic is stretching your old worn out brain a bit too much, apparently.

A transfer of energy from some other universe to our own would violate the laws of thermodynamics since our universe is a closed one. If you want to make that argument you must first show that our universe is not closed.

 

[JimBowie1958]

A "transfer" of energy is not a creation of energy from any perspective.

No, Ed, it would appear to be a creation of energy from someone in our universe. How would they see it coming in from another universe?

Oh, wait, you mean that since you have already determined that it came from somewhere, you rule out creation of energy in this unusual situation right from the start.

How open minded of you, libtard.

You can stomp your feet all you want, but the proven FLoT says energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

Yes, in THIS universe.

Can you prove that applies to any and all universes?

No, you cannot, but you ASSume it because of your philosophical prejudices and not science.

Stupid ass hat, go borrow a brain or steal one, cause this topic is stretching your old worn out brain a bit too much, apparently.

A transfer of energy from some other universe to our own would violate the laws of thermodynamics since our universe is a closed one. If you want to make that argument you must first show that our universe is not closed.

1) I am arguing that in the first moments of our universe's creation it was not a closed universe.

2) Whether you want to start with the Big Bang or the beginnings of the Cosmic Egg, at some point in time energy was put into our universe from somewhere outside of it.

3) I am not at all sure that we don't have inter-universe transfers of energy since the Big Bang. It apparently does not happen at a regular interval that we have discovered as of yet, but if there are other universes and if they can and sometimes do transfer energy between each other, why cant it happen on far smaller scales intermittently? Sort of micro-Big Bangs?

 

[edthecynic]

Lol, what is a lie, ed?



From the perspective of an observer in THIS universe it most certainly does mean that.

A "transfer" of energy is not a creation of energy from any perspective.

No, Ed, it would appear to be a creation of energy from someone in our universe. How would they see it coming in from another universe?

Oh, wait, you mean that since you have already determined that it came from somewhere, you rule out creation of energy in this unusual situation right from the start.

How open minded of you, libtard.

You can stomp your feet all you want, but the proven FLoT says energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

Yes, in THIS universe.

Can you prove that applies to any and all universes?

No, you cannot, but you ASSume it because of your philosophical prejudices and not science.

Stupid ass hat, go borrow a brain or steal one, cause this topic is stretching your old worn out brain a bit too much, apparently.

YOU were the one who determined energy came from another universe, not me, I merely pointed out that even with YOUR assumption that does not prove energy was created, YOUR own word was "TRANSFERRED."

Can you prove there are other universes? YOU ASSume it and then ASSume it proves energy can be created. I only pointed out the flaw in YOUR ASSumption even if true.

 

[JimBowie1958]

A "transfer" of energy is not a creation of energy from any perspective.

No, Ed, it would appear to be a creation of energy from someone in our universe. How would they see it coming in from another universe?

Oh, wait, you mean that since you have already determined that it came from somewhere, you rule out creation of energy in this unusual situation right from the start.

How open minded of you, libtard.

You can stomp your feet all you want, but the proven FLoT says energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

Yes, in THIS universe.

Can you prove that applies to any and all universes?

No, you cannot, but you ASSume it because of your philosophical prejudices and not science.

Stupid ass hat, go borrow a brain or steal one, cause this topic is stretching your old worn out brain a bit too much, apparently.

YOU were the one who determined energy came from another universe, not me, I merely pointed out that even with YOUR assumption that does not prove energy was created, YOUR own word was "TRANSFERRED."

It could have come from another universe, but it might have simply appeared from nothing by a divine act of power. lol

My point is that even in naturalistic terms, from our perspective in this universe, a transfer of energy to our universe from outside it would APPEAR as a creation of energy, not a transfer.

It would really help you to respond if you would first READ the posts. But a rational discussion is not your goal here, quite plainly; you are being a troll.

Can you prove there are other universes? YOU ASSume it and then ASSume it proves energy can be created. I only pointed out the flaw in YOUR ASSumption even if true.

lol, you don't keep up much, do you? While outside universes are not proven fact, there is evidence for them.

Scientists find first evidence that many universes exist

In the most recent study on pre-Big Bang science posted at arXiv.org, a team of researchers from the UK, Canada, and the US, Stephen M. Feeney, et al, have revealed that they have discovered four statistically unlikely circular patterns in the cosmic microwave background (CMB). The researchers think that these marks could be “bruises” that our universe has incurred from being bumped four times by other universes. If they turn out to be correct, it would be the first evidence that universes other than ours do exist.

Is our universe merely one of billions? Evidence of the existence of 'multiverse' revealed for the first time by cosmic map | Mail Online

The first 'hard evidence' that other universes exist has been found by scientists.

Cosmologists studying a map of the universe from data gathered by the Planck spacecraft have concluded that it shows anomalies that can only have been caused by the gravitational pull of other universes.

The map shows radiation from the Big Bang 13.8billion years ago that is still detectable in the universe - known as cosmic microwave radiation.

Scientists had predicted that it should be evenly distributed, but the map shows a stronger concentration in the south half of the sky and a 'cold spot' that cannot be explained by current understanding of physics.

Laura Mersini-Houghton, theoretical physicist at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and Richard Holman, professor at Carnegie Mellon University, predicted that anomalies in radiation existed and were caused by the pull from other universes in 2005.

Universe May Exist in a Multiverse, Cosmic Inflation Suggests | Space.com

The first direct evidence of cosmic inflation — a period of rapid expansion that occurred a fraction of a second after the Big Bang — also supports the idea that our universe is just one of many out there, some researchers say.

On Monday (March 17), scientists announced new findings that mark the first-ever direct evidence of primordial gravitational waves — ripples in space-time created just after the universe began. If the results are confirmed, they would provide smoking-gun evidence that space-time expanded at many times the speed of light just after the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago.

Lol, here is three different sources, maybe one of them will be OKed by your libtard thought managers and you can see the point....but probably not.

 

[orogenicman]

No, Ed, it would appear to be a creation of energy from someone in our universe. How would they see it coming in from another universe?

Oh, wait, you mean that since you have already determined that it came from somewhere, you rule out creation of energy in this unusual situation right from the start.

How open minded of you, libtard.



Yes, in THIS universe.

Can you prove that applies to any and all universes?

No, you cannot, but you ASSume it because of your philosophical prejudices and not science.

Stupid ass hat, go borrow a brain or steal one, cause this topic is stretching your old worn out brain a bit too much, apparently.

A transfer of energy from some other universe to our own would violate the laws of thermodynamics since our universe is a closed one. If you want to make that argument you must first show that our universe is not closed.

1) I am arguing that in the first moments of our universe's creation it was not a closed universe.

Okay, so present the evidence you have to support your hypothesis.

2) Whether you want to start with the Big Bang or the beginnings of the Cosmic Egg, at some point in time energy was put into our universe from somewhere outside of it.

What evidence supports this claim? Do you realize that if our universe is not closed, that would mean that energy would be able to leave our universe as well as enter it, right?

3)I am not at all sure that we don't have inter-universe transfers of energy since the Big Bang. It apparently does not happen at a regular interval that we have discovered as of yet, but if there are other universes and if they can and sometimes do transfer energy between each other, why cant it happen on far smaller scales intermittently? Sort of micro-Big Bangs?

It has not been discovered to occur at all, so why assume that it does?

 

[JimBowie1958]

A transfer of energy from some other universe to our own would violate the laws of thermodynamics since our universe is a closed one. If you want to make that argument you must first show that our universe is not closed.

1) I am arguing that in the first moments of our universe's creation it was not a closed universe.

Okay, so present the evidence you have to support your hypothesis.

lol, OK; the Big Bang.

2) Whether you want to start with the Big Bang or the beginnings of the Cosmic Egg, at some point in time energy was put into our universe from somewhere outside of it.

What evidence supports this claim? Do you realize that if our universe is not closed, that would mean that energy would be able to leave our universe as well as enter it, right?

The fallacy of infinite regression supports the claim that the current space-time flow we live in began at some point and this has been confirmed with the Big Bang theory being validated.

3)I am not at all sure that we don't have inter-universe transfers of energy since the Big Bang. It apparently does not happen at a regular interval that we have discovered as of yet, but if there are other universes and if they can and sometimes do transfer energy between each other, why cant it happen on far smaller scales intermittently? Sort of micro-Big Bangs?

It has not been discovered to occur at all, so why assume that it does?

If you would actually read what I post, you would see Id did not say I was assuming anything, but only that I am not sure this does not happen, which is far from an affirmative assumption.

 

[G.T.]

OP is actually a logical fallacy. Complexity does not imply design, and CERTAINLY doesn't PROVE design.

 

[JimBowie1958]

OP is actually a logical fallacy. Complexity does not imply design, and CERTAINLY doesn't PROVE design.

What a straw man!

No one is asserting that, douche.

I am asserting that a system of concepts known as laws are in EVERY CASE designed.

We know that to be true.

The FACT that the universe can be described accurately with cognitive human expression is proof of design in and of itself.

No one is talking about mere complexity except dullards like you who cant read, ass hole.

 

[orogenicman]

1) I am arguing that in the first moments of our universe's creation it was not a closed universe.

Okay, so present the evidence you have to support your hypothesis.

lol, OK; the Big Bang.

You're going to have to present a better line of evidence than a five word sentence. The Big Bang theory says that at t=0 the universe consisted of a point of infinite energy density. It says nothing about that energy originating from elsewhere.

The fallacy of infinite regression supports the claim that the current space-time flow we live in began at some point and this has been confirmed with the Big Bang theory being validated.

How does that support your claim that the energy of the universe came from elsewhere?

3)I am not at all sure that we don't have inter-universe transfers of energy since the Big Bang. It apparently does not happen at a regular interval that we have discovered as of yet, but if there are other universes and if they can and sometimes do transfer energy between each other, why cant it happen on far smaller scales intermittently? Sort of micro-Big Bangs?

It has not been discovered to occur at all, so why assume that it does?

If you would actually read what I post, you would see Id did not say I was assuming anything, but only that I am not sure this does not happen, which is far from an affirmative assumption.

What line of evidence leads to your uncertainty?

 

[G.T.]

OP is actually a logical fallacy. Complexity does not imply design, and CERTAINLY doesn't PROVE design.

What a straw man!

No one is asserting that, douche.

I am asserting that a system of concepts known as laws are in EVERY CASE designed.

We know that to be true.

The FACT that the universe can be described accurately with cognitive human expression is proof of design in and of itself.

No one is talking about mere complexity except dullards like you who cant read, ass hole.

No, in science the LAWS are observed, not designed. We do not know how they came to be, and design is most certainly not the only option. It's a bad argument. A non starter. Frivolous.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Okay, so present the evidence you have to support your hypothesis.

lol, OK; the Big Bang.

You're going to have to present a better line of evidence than a five word sentence. The Big Bang theory says that at t=0 the universe consisted of a point of infinite energy density. It says nothing about that energy originating from elsewhere.

Lol, prior to t=0 there was no universe, so it must have come from elsewhere and we don't need science to show us that once it has been proven that the universe did not exist prior to t=0.

How does that support your claim that the energy of the universe came from elsewhere?/quote]

Lol, if the universe did not exist then how could the energy to create it NOT have come from elsewhere?

It has not been discovered to occur at all, so why assume that it does?

If you would actually read what I post, you would see Id did not say I was assuming anything, but only that I am not sure this does not happen, which is far from an affirmative assumption.

What line of evidence leads to your uncertainty?

The Big Bang.

 

[edthecynic]

No, Ed, it would appear to be a creation of energy from someone in our universe. How would they see it coming in from another universe?

Oh, wait, you mean that since you have already determined that it came from somewhere, you rule out creation of energy in this unusual situation right from the start.

How open minded of you, libtard.



Yes, in THIS universe.

Can you prove that applies to any and all universes?

No, you cannot, but you ASSume it because of your philosophical prejudices and not science.

Stupid ass hat, go borrow a brain or steal one, cause this topic is stretching your old worn out brain a bit too much, apparently.

YOU were the one who determined energy came from another universe, not me, I merely pointed out that even with YOUR assumption that does not prove energy was created, YOUR own word was "TRANSFERRED."

It could have come from another universe, but it might have simply appeared from nothing by a divine act of power. lol

My point is that even in naturalistic terms, from our perspective in this universe, a transfer of energy to our universe from outside it would APPEAR as a creation of energy, not a transfer.

It would really help you to respond if you would first READ the posts. But a rational discussion is not your goal here, quite plainly; you are being a troll.



lol, you don't keep up much, do you? While outside universes are not proven fact, there is evidence for them.

Scientists find first evidence that many universes exist



Is our universe merely one of billions? Evidence of the existence of 'multiverse' revealed for the first time by cosmic map | Mail Online

The first 'hard evidence' that other universes exist has been found by scientists.

Cosmologists studying a map of the universe from data gathered by the Planck spacecraft have concluded that it shows anomalies that can only have been caused by the gravitational pull of other universes.

The map shows radiation from the Big Bang 13.8billion years ago that is still detectable in the universe - known as cosmic microwave radiation.

Scientists had predicted that it should be evenly distributed, but the map shows a stronger concentration in the south half of the sky and a 'cold spot' that cannot be explained by current understanding of physics.

Laura Mersini-Houghton, theoretical physicist at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and Richard Holman, professor at Carnegie Mellon University, predicted that anomalies in radiation existed and were caused by the pull from other universes in 2005.

Universe May Exist in a Multiverse, Cosmic Inflation Suggests | Space.com

The first direct evidence of cosmic inflation — a period of rapid expansion that occurred a fraction of a second after the Big Bang — also supports the idea that our universe is just one of many out there, some researchers say.

On Monday (March 17), scientists announced new findings that mark the first-ever direct evidence of primordial gravitational waves — ripples in space-time created just after the universe began. If the results are confirmed, they would provide smoking-gun evidence that space-time expanded at many times the speed of light just after the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago.

Lol, here is three different sources, maybe one of them will be OKed by your libtard thought managers and you can see the point....but probably not.

Again, if energy appeared from nothing by a devine act of power, you are violating the FLoT, something you said a providential act "NEVER" does, so you are contradicting yourself again. BTW, YOU capitalized "NEVER" when YOU made the claim!

To refresh your memory:

Ed, don't be such a buffoon.

Providence acts through normal natural laws, hence by definition God intervening via providential means is NEVER a violation of the laws of thermodynamics.

lol

As far as the multiverse, I am well aware of the theories, which are still unproven though evidence appears to be mounting, which is why I gave you the benefit of the doubt that another universe transferred energy to our universe, and shot down your assumption that existing energy in another universe transferred to ours equals the creation of energy. It doesn't matter how many universes exist, an energy TRANSFER is not a CREATION of energy, but merely a decrease in one place and an equal increase in another

 

[JimBowie1958]

OP is actually a logical fallacy. Complexity does not imply design, and CERTAINLY doesn't PROVE design.

What a straw man!

No one is asserting that, douche.

I am asserting that a system of concepts known as laws are in EVERY CASE designed.

We know that to be true.

The FACT that the universe can be described accurately with cognitive human expression is proof of design in and of itself.

No one is talking about mere complexity except dullards like you who cant read, ass hole.

No, in science the LAWS are observed, not designed.

Yes, WE discover them, obviously, but the cognitive quality of the universe that allows it to be described by human concepts is proof of pre-existing concepts of the universe and that implies design.

Each and EVERY system of law in existence is designed, show me one that isn't.

We do not know how they came to be, and design is most certainly not the only option. It's a bad argument. A non starter. Frivolous.

Lol, in your biased opinion, a bias so strong you cannot admit that a system of laws is obviously designed.

 

[G.T.]

What a straw man!

No one is asserting that, douche.

I am asserting that a system of concepts known as laws are in EVERY CASE designed.

We know that to be true.

The FACT that the universe can be described accurately with cognitive human expression is proof of design in and of itself.

No one is talking about mere complexity except dullards like you who cant read, ass hole.

No, in science the LAWS are observed, not designed.

Yes, WE discover them, obviously, but the cognitive quality of the universe that allows it to be described by human concepts is proof of pre-existing concepts of the universe and that implies design.

Each and EVERY system of law in existence is designed, show me one that isn't.

We do not know how they came to be, and design is most certainly not the only option. It's a bad argument. A non starter. Frivolous.

Lol, in your biased opinion, a bias so strong you cannot admit that a system of laws is obviously designed.

The Universe! Dope. The LAWS have no proof of design simply because they exist, what is this toddler logic?

 

[G.T.]

you cannot admit that a system of laws is obviously designed.

Obviously based on what measure? See, my first post was correct and ya didn't even know it. Dumb dumb.

 

[edthecynic]

lol, OK; the Big Bang.

You're going to have to present a better line of evidence than a five word sentence. The Big Bang theory says that at t=0 the universe consisted of a point of infinite energy density. It says nothing about that energy originating from elsewhere.

Lol, prior to t=0 there was no universe, so it must have come from elsewhere and we don't need science to show us that once it has been proven that the universe did not exist prior to t=0.

You are wrong right out of the gate. At T=0 there was no space/time. There was energy however. Space/time began at the Big Bang, not energy.