How could anyone be "independent" or a "swing voter" at this time in history?

[Cecilie1200]

If the alternative is to allow someone who will destroy the nation to become President, yes.

Both parties are always convinced the other one wants to destroy the nation. I'm not buying into that.

If people actually talked to one another with the intent to listen and learn then we would actually begin to try and do what's best for this nation and hold our leaders accountable equally.

Most independents are always convinced that everything is about "parties", and can just be dismissed as beneath them without any real thought.

If people who blather about "talk to one another with the intent to listen and learn" would actually LISTEN AND LEARN, they might not spend as much time posting nonsensical "responses" to posts which have no relation to what's being said in the post.

And yes, I AM calling you a pretentious hypocrite, just in case that wasn't clear.

I really don't care what you call me. But if you think asking for people to behave like adults is blathering than you're more out of touch than you realize.

Thank you for proving my point. You may toddle back to your meaningless preening now.

Thank you for your much needed permission.

Thank you for your continued attempts to one-up. Now shoo.

 

[jc456]

But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

Please don't. We already have more than enough people selling their soul for politicians who don't give two shits about them.

We need more people who are willing to hold people to standards.
.

then you forfeit the right to bitch.

Wow. More weird Trumpian fantasy. I vote, and will vote.

I'll keep my standards, you don't have to (obviously). If you don't like that, tough shit.
.

no you don't, you hand your vote to a known loser to feel good about yourself. That makes you conceded.

"Conceited"



Y'know, it's funny:

On one hand, you think you and your tribe have all the answers. We should just give you all the power and you'll save us. Because you speak The Truth.

On the other hand, I think the best and longest-lasting ideas come from everywhere - communication, collaboration, innovation. Working together.

And you call ME "conceited".

Yeah. Funny.
.

nope not at all. I don't have all the answers. I ask for help. some provide it, some are self serving. they'd rather have someone fail then offer support. so you're wrong.

No one is perfect in any world. Even Jesus wasn't perfect. so the bar you hang you can never touch.

Logical folks involve others to provide the best for all worlds no matter how uneven that may be. There will always be poor folks and there will always be rich folks, there will always be kind folks and evil folks, there are all kinds of middle in all of that that it seems you choose to avoid. sad.

 

[Red Wolf]

Well, we're sadly far beyond that now.

We're not all required to be a part of it, thankfully.
.

The "good men" who allow evil to flourish by standing by and doing nothing are still part of it, no matter how much they assure themselves they're not.

How is my voting for someone who insults a group of people for their view points me fighting evil? If they're not qualified for the position than I'm not going to put them there.

When the alternative is to allow someone to be President who actively prohibits people from expressing their viewpoints? Hmm, let me think about that. How COULD you possibly discern a difference there?

And if the other person wants to do the same then what am I supposed to do, flip a coin?

So is that the case at the moment? You can show me specifics where both sides want to actively prohibit First Amendment rights? Or is this just a hypothetical to save your rhetorical ass?

You're the one who brought it up so I assumed we were just making up scenarios as a group project. That is unless you're the only one allowed to do that here.

 

[jc456]

Please don't. We already have more than enough people selling their soul for politicians who don't give two shits about them.

We need more people who are willing to hold people to standards.
.

then you forfeit the right to bitch.

Wow. More weird Trumpian fantasy. I vote, and will vote.

I'll keep my standards, you don't have to (obviously). If you don't like that, tough shit.
.

no you don't, you hand your vote to a known loser to feel good about yourself. That makes you conceded.

"Conceited"



Y'know, it's funny:

On one hand, you think you and your tribe have all the answers. We should just give you all the power and you'll save us. Because you speak The Truth.

On the other hand, I think the best and longest-lasting ideas come from everywhere - communication, collaboration, innovation. Working together.

And you call ME "conceited".

Yeah. Funny.
.

nope not at all. I don't have all the answers. I ask for help. some provide it, some are self serving. they'd rather have someone fail then offer support. so you're wrong.

No one is perfect in any world. Even Jesus wasn't perfect. so the bar you hang you can never touch.

Logical folks involve others to provide the best for all worlds no matter how uneven that may be. There will always be poor folks and there will always be rich folks, there will always be kind folks and evil folks, there are all kinds of middle in all of that that it seems you choose to avoid. sad.

Mac1958 I rest my case.

 

[jc456]

then you forfeit the right to bitch.

Wow. More weird Trumpian fantasy. I vote, and will vote.

I'll keep my standards, you don't have to (obviously). If you don't like that, tough shit.
.

no you don't, you hand your vote to a known loser to feel good about yourself. That makes you conceded.

"Conceited"



Y'know, it's funny:

On one hand, you think you and your tribe have all the answers. We should just give you all the power and you'll save us. Because you speak The Truth.

On the other hand, I think the best and longest-lasting ideas come from everywhere - communication, collaboration, innovation. Working together.

And you call ME "conceited".

Yeah. Funny.
.

nope not at all. I don't have all the answers. I ask for help. some provide it, some are self serving. they'd rather have someone fail then offer support. so you're wrong.

No one is perfect in any world. Even Jesus wasn't perfect. so the bar you hang you can never touch.

Logical folks involve others to provide the best for all worlds no matter how uneven that may be. There will always be poor folks and there will always be rich folks, there will always be kind folks and evil folks, there are all kinds of middle in all of that that it seems you choose to avoid. sad.

Mac1958 I rest my case.

Mac1958 , no doubt

 

[Cecilie1200]

So meanwhile, someone awful is welcome to take over while you wait for someone who meets your standards of good.

You remind me of Mitt Romney. A moral stance, taken in a vacuum with no reference to the ethical situation to which it will be applied, can all-too-easily become immoral in its evil consequences. And you can quote me on that.

We already have something awful because people refuse to listen and talk. Hate has become fashionable and people cheer on the insults and jabs made at others simply for having a different view point. How do you suppose we make something great from division and rhetoric? It's only by us being the very best that we can that we'll get the people worth leading us. But to say that I "have" to support someone is ridiculous. Settling for meh is a horrible way to give someone a nob.

Be the change you want to see in the world, by actually saying something real for people to listen to, instead of spewing all these vague generalities at me. Please explain to me how 1) choosing one candidate who's better than the other despite neither of them being perfect makes hate fashionable, and 2) what your policy of doing not a damned thing except for lecturing everyone about how you're morally superior by doing not a damned thing somehow makes that better.

I'll wait.

How is asking for someone to be honest and respectful vague? Do you keep people in your life who treat you like crap, or do you look for those who actually talk to you like a person? It's not that difficult.

And I'm still not sure how voting for someone who hates others simply for their opinions is the same as me fighting evil. Maybe you can explain that one.

How is that vague? Well, let me see. There's the word "someone", for a start. WHICH someone did you have in mind? Then there's, y'know, the whole part where I spelled out EXACTLY what being specific would entail, which you skipped right over to give me a platitudinous lecture on relationships that reads a lot like a Facebook meme.

Maybe instead of asking me for explanations over and over, you could try just reading the explanations I've already given. You remember, that whole "listen and learn" thing you were dribbling on about earlier.

You're accusing me of ignoring your explanations while you ignore the ones I gave. You really do need to be a little more self aware.

Okay, your increasingly desperate attempts to justify yourself to me are starting to make me sad.

You've been kicked to the curb, Fido. Scurry away.

 

[Red Wolf]

I have a very high bar for the people I vote for. Basically if you have traits about you that I wouldn't want in a spouse, someone that I will spend the rest of my life with, than I'm not going to vote to put you in a position of power that effects not just me, but billions of of other people. I do not condone dishonesty or bullish behavior and I will not reward it. Now you may see that as fence sitting, but for me that is exercising the only voice I have, however miniscule it may be.

I thought that was how everyone was supposed to vote? how do you feel you are unique?

I never said I was.

you posted it as you were special in your decision making prospects. You imply others don't have a high bar for people they vote for. again, it would seem you either have someone who matches all your criteria or no one. Compromise is necessary, otherwise you'd never get a candidate voted in. What a waste of a vote.

I never implied I was special. All I did was state my own criteria. And I am well aware that my bar is so high that I probably won't be voting any time soon. But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

then you forfeited the right to talk to me or any citizen that voted. zero. your opinions don't count. We are an exercise your right or shut up country.

I have every right so speak. Just because you put a pile of shit in front of me doesn't mean I have to eat it. If you don't like it then put something other then shit in front of me, but don't expect me to just go along with whatever crap you put there.

 

[DustyInfinity]

The "moderates" at this point are assholes who refuse to acknowledge RIGHT Vs. WRONG and sit on a fence they created in their own mind preening themselves and acting as if they're superior because they refuse to take a stand until one side defeats the other.

Miserable pathetic pieces of shit that have nothing to fight for and are only interested in their own ends.

Then there are leftist pieces of shit like Mac1958 who pretend to be "moderate" like fakey, yet they're still just as bigoted and ignorant as any other liberal parasite.


.

I've been an independent from the first time I voted and won't likely change that.

Your description doesn't match the independents I know and it sure as hell isn't me.

So, Trump vs Bernie 2020, what issues do you share in common with both of them that would make it difficult for you to vote one or the other?

That is the single biggest argument against both parties being the same. In a sense, I see the uniparty argument because Republican Representatives have been so weak for so long and Immigration and Corporate Cronyism never get fixed. However Trump is not a typical Republican, like a W. Bush, in that he is actually getting results in both immigration, regulation reduction, and much more. At the same time, Sanders and the Squad are not the typical filthy rich John Kerry type. They are reaching for far more government control over people's lives than ever before. Plus, the left is weaker on illegal immigration and crime than I can ever remember. In this case, I really can't see sitting on a fence.

On one side you have jobs and opportunity, and on the other you have 7 dollar gallons of gas, unemployment, and crime.

 

[Red Wolf]

But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

Please don't. We already have more than enough people selling their soul for politicians who don't give two shits about them.

We need more people who are willing to hold people to standards.
.

then you forfeit the right to bitch.

Good luck enforcing that

 

[Cecilie1200]

I thought that was how everyone was supposed to vote? how do you feel you are unique?

I never said I was.

you posted it as you were special in your decision making prospects. You imply others don't have a high bar for people they vote for. again, it would seem you either have someone who matches all your criteria or no one. Compromise is necessary, otherwise you'd never get a candidate voted in. What a waste of a vote.

I never implied I was special. All I did was state my own criteria. And I am well aware that my bar is so high that I probably won't be voting any time soon. But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

then you forfeited the right to talk to me or any citizen that voted. zero. your opinions don't count. We are an exercise your right or shut up country.

I have every right so speak. Just because you put a pile of shit in front of me doesn't mean I have to eat it. If you don't like it then put something other then shit in front of me, but don't expect me to just go along with whatever crap you put there.

And I have every right to mock you mercilessly for humping my leg, begging for my attention and respect.

 

[jc456]

I thought that was how everyone was supposed to vote? how do you feel you are unique?

I never said I was.

you posted it as you were special in your decision making prospects. You imply others don't have a high bar for people they vote for. again, it would seem you either have someone who matches all your criteria or no one. Compromise is necessary, otherwise you'd never get a candidate voted in. What a waste of a vote.

I never implied I was special. All I did was state my own criteria. And I am well aware that my bar is so high that I probably won't be voting any time soon. But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

then you forfeited the right to talk to me or any citizen that voted. zero. your opinions don't count. We are an exercise your right or shut up country.

I have every right so speak. Just because you put a pile of shit in front of me doesn't mean I have to eat it. If you don't like it then put something other then shit in front of me, but don't expect me to just go along with whatever crap you put there.

no, no you don't. you forfeited your right. you didn't vote. you forfeit your right when you don't use the right the country gave you.

 

[jc456]

But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

Please don't. We already have more than enough people selling their soul for politicians who don't give two shits about them.

We need more people who are willing to hold people to standards.
.

then you forfeit the right to bitch.

Good luck enforcing that

well it rolls off my fingers. you forfeit your right to bitch.

 

[hjmick]

1. I don't know.
2. I've never cared enough to ask.
.

and you claim you don't support the democrats when you vote supports them and you bragged about not caring lol
YOU'RE TOTALLY TRANSPARENT

Would you like to try that in English this time?

I'll be happy to respond if you can be coherent.
.

Your dodge is noted

Last try: I definitely think of myself as a left-leaning Independent, and I vote Democrat more often than Republican.

I have also had a few thousand squabbles with people I refer to as the Regressive Left here. Use the search function. You should be able to handle that.

So, I'm just not ideological.

I don't know how I can make this any more fucking simple for you people. I'm tired of pretending that I'm talking to six year olds.
.

Damn you fucking moron take a few comprehension class. Children can't comprehend adult thought process maybe that's your problem
You're transparent if you vote Independent your vote goes to the democrat party. But most on here that know what you write already know you hold an allegiance to the democrats

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I think there is just a touch of misunderstanding on your part, bigreb. Just because one is a registered Independent (I am not, for the record), doesn't mean he or she necessarily votes for the candidate with the "I" next to their name. Since there is no official Independent party, and candidates who identify as Independents aren't common, they are as likely to vote for a Democrat as they are a Republican, or any other party for that matter. Just my opinion...

 

[Red Wolf]

I agree. So people shouldn't do that. They should stand up for their standards, even if they get incoming from both ends.
.

And in what way are you "standing up for your standards", exactly? Sanctimoniously flapping your jaw at people about how "moral" you are? Or is there something real?

You're the one who's preaching at me because you feel I must take an action. But if you think asking for kindness, respect, and honesty is me being sanctimonious than have at it.

You misunderstand. I don't care if you "take an action" or not. In fact, from listening to you talk, I think you're probably making the world a better place by sparing us your involvement.

What I'm actually "preaching" at you about is seeing a different perspective on your choices, or non-choices as the case may be.

What I continue to think is that your prattling about vagueries like "I'm just asking for kindness, respect, and honesty, and how DARE you expect me to be specific about what that actually means, just admire me for using good words!" is so much self-flattering hogwash.

kindness
[ˈkīn(d)nəs]
NOUN

1. the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate.

respect
[rəˈspekt]
NOUN

1. a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.
   "the director had a lot of respect for Douglas as an actor"
   
   
2. due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others.
   "young people's lack of respect for their parents"
   synonyms:
   due regard · 
   [more]
3. a particular aspect, point, or detail.
   "the government's record in this respect is a mixed one"

integrity
[inˈteɡrədē]
NOUN

1. the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.
   "he is known to be a man of integrity"

I'm sorry if those words trigger and confuse you.

the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate.

to everyone? no matter the scenario? So a guy points a gun at your head, your way out is to be kind? hahahaahahahahaha what a fktard.

You really have trouble understanding context don't you? By the logic you just set a presidental candidate could point a gun at someone's head and you would still vote for them. You see the stupidity in that don't you?

 

[jc456]

And in what way are you "standing up for your standards", exactly? Sanctimoniously flapping your jaw at people about how "moral" you are? Or is there something real?

You're the one who's preaching at me because you feel I must take an action. But if you think asking for kindness, respect, and honesty is me being sanctimonious than have at it.

You misunderstand. I don't care if you "take an action" or not. In fact, from listening to you talk, I think you're probably making the world a better place by sparing us your involvement.

What I'm actually "preaching" at you about is seeing a different perspective on your choices, or non-choices as the case may be.

What I continue to think is that your prattling about vagueries like "I'm just asking for kindness, respect, and honesty, and how DARE you expect me to be specific about what that actually means, just admire me for using good words!" is so much self-flattering hogwash.

kindness
[ˈkīn(d)nəs]
NOUN

1. the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate.

respect
[rəˈspekt]
NOUN

1. a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.
   "the director had a lot of respect for Douglas as an actor"
   
   
2. due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others.
   "young people's lack of respect for their parents"
   synonyms:
   due regard · 
   [more]
3. a particular aspect, point, or detail.
   "the government's record in this respect is a mixed one"

integrity
[inˈteɡrədē]
NOUN

1. the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.
   "he is known to be a man of integrity"

I'm sorry if those words trigger and confuse you.

the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate.

to everyone? no matter the scenario? So a guy points a gun at your head, your way out is to be kind? hahahaahahahahaha what a fktard.

You really have trouble understanding context don't you? By the logic you just set a presidental candidate could point a gun at someone's head and you would still vote for them. You see the stupidity in that don't you?

always with the dramatic with you self righteous pukes, no, no one wins anything by pointing guns at people. fk you have no logic. your statement is my evidence.

 

[Circe]

son,

I can certainly accept your decisions, they're yours. But I have to agree with others in here, how does avoiding voting accomplish anything for you? the idiots will vote for the idiots while the others will vote for the other guy. lesser of two evils is acceptable in my mind. If I, a citizen, must endure the pain of an elitist in DC, then I want the one I can endure best. I do know that no vote, will assure me either. pfft, The reason for a vote is to actually chose the one you can live with. I don' accept your procedure as valid to come then and argue anything. Again, there isn't a perfect candidate. never will be. people pay quite a lot of money for those candidates, and promises must be made as payback. You have no skin in the game son.

(My emphasis above)

Why do you keep calling me "son"? Deliberately mis-identifying the gender of a poster seems weird to me.

 

[jc456]

son,

I can certainly accept your decisions, they're yours. But I have to agree with others in here, how does avoiding voting accomplish anything for you? the idiots will vote for the idiots while the others will vote for the other guy. lesser of two evils is acceptable in my mind. If I, a citizen, must endure the pain of an elitist in DC, then I want the one I can endure best. I do know that no vote, will assure me either. pfft, The reason for a vote is to actually chose the one you can live with. I don' accept your procedure as valid to come then and argue anything. Again, there isn't a perfect candidate. never will be. people pay quite a lot of money for those candidates, and promises must be made as payback. You have no skin in the game son.

(My emphasis above)

Why do you keep calling me "son"? Deliberately mis-identifying the gender of a poster seems weird to me.

I can't see you? I don't know, seemed right? usually women have more common sense than men. I don't know. On a message board you're offended? you should eat more hot dogs then

 

[Circe]

Why do you keep calling me "son"? Deliberately mis-identifying the gender of a poster seems weird to me.

I can't see you? I don't know, seemed right? usually women have more common sense than men. I don't know. On a message board you're offended? you should eat more hot dogs then

We're planning to have hot dogs tonight anyway --- so how is that going to help me? Is it going to make me male like Anthony Weiner? God forbid anyone else should be male like Anthony Weiner, a fate worse than death.
You are maybe saying that on a message board nobody gets offended? I don't know, jc456 --- for a woman poster, you seem easily offended to me.

 

[jc456]

Why do you keep calling me "son"? Deliberately mis-identifying the gender of a poster seems weird to me.

I can't see you? I don't know, seemed right? usually women have more common sense than men. I don't know. On a message board you're offended? you should eat more hot dogs then

We're planning to have hot dogs tonight anyway --- so how is that going to help me? Is it going to make me male like Anthony Weiner? God forbid anyone else should be male like Anthony Weiner, a fate worse than death.
You are maybe saying that on a message board nobody gets offended? I don't know, jc456 --- for a woman poster, you seem easily offended to me.

well at least you'll be holding a dog. If that makes you more male, you'll have to tell us. I don't get offended. I can let things slide as misinterpretation and all of that. I don't over react, I have skills far more logical than most in here. You keep whining your sweet little vi-jay jay there. enjoy the weekend and those dogs.

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

No one in this thread has stated the obvious yet...........

Trump is Republican only recently and only because it was a winning strategy. Most of his life he was a NY Democrat. In fact, he has changed several times.
That would, in reality, make him more of an Independent than most any elected Prez in modern history.

So those of you arguing neither party is legit and calling yourselves Independent or Moderate should see Trump as a life raft. YOUR GUY.

And those of you saying the Republican party is the best should see your folly as well.

It may require a bit of common sense and higher thinking to see this however.