How could anyone be "independent" or a "swing voter" at this time in history?

[Mac1958]

Last try: I definitely think of myself as a left-leaning Independent, and I vote Democrat more often than Republican.

I have also had a few thousand squabbles with people I refer to as the Regressive Left here. Use the search function. You should be able to handle that.

So, I'm just not ideological.

I don't know how I can make this any more fucking simple for you people. I'm tired of pretending that I'm talking to six year olds.
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Damn you fucking moron take a few comprehension class. Children can't comprehend adult thought process maybe that's your problem
You're transparent if you vote Independent your vote goes to the democrat party. But most on here that know what you write already know you hold an allegiance to the democrats

Neat!
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that's what a child would respond with

Precisely.
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So you're saying you have childish thought processes?
That's nothing new I've known it for a while.

Are you done?
.

 

[Cecilie1200]

But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

Please don't. We already have more than enough people selling their soul for politicians who don't give two shits about them.

We need more people who are willing to hold people to standards.
.

Hey, I'm all for holding politicians to standards. I just don't see how sniffily absenting yourself from the process entirely and allowing other people to choose politicians who can't even SPELL "standards" accomplishes that.

I agree. So people shouldn't do that. They should stand up for their standards, even if they get incoming from both ends.
.

And in what way are you "standing up for your standards", exactly? Sanctimoniously flapping your jaw at people about how "moral" you are? Or is there something real?

You're the one who's preaching at me because you feel I must take an action. But if you think asking for kindness, respect, and honesty is me being sanctimonious than have at it.

You misunderstand. I don't care if you "take an action" or not. In fact, from listening to you talk, I think you're probably making the world a better place by sparing us your involvement.

What I'm actually "preaching" at you about is seeing a different perspective on your choices, or non-choices as the case may be.

What I continue to think is that your prattling about vagueries like "I'm just asking for kindness, respect, and honesty, and how DARE you expect me to be specific about what that actually means, just admire me for using good words!" is so much self-flattering hogwash.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Damn you fucking moron take a few comprehension class. Children can't comprehend adult thought process maybe that's your problem
You're transparent if you vote Independent your vote goes to the democrat party. But most on here that know what you write already know you hold an allegiance to the democrats

Neat!
.

that's what a child would respond with

Precisely.
.

So you're saying you have childish thought processes?
That's nothing new I've known it for a while.

Are you done?
.

no kid we aren't there yet sit back and shut the fuck up

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I really feel no need to apologize for having a mind of my own.

being a drone in the hive has never appealed to me.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Your emotions have you by the balls...daddy issues maybe?
Most of us have / had grandfathers, fathers, brothers, uncles, friends, mentors, pastors...etc etc...We don't really look to the POTUS for emotional support...we vote for real leaders pushing effective policies, leaders willing to fight for Americas best citizens. This really shouldn't be all that trivial.

The person I vote for is going to be someone who doesn't slam others just for having a different view point. They're going to be someone who doesn't feel the need to deceive or lie about themselves or others. This person will fight to unite us all, not just one party. If you want to see that as me letting my emotions getting the best of me than you go ahead. But I will not vote for someone who strives on division and hate.

So until Jesus Christ shows up and throws His hat in the ring, you're just going to abstain and let the world function as it will without your input? What other things in your life do you just blow off and let spiral into Hell unobstructed because of a lack of perfect choices?

I don't owe anyone my support. Who I back is my decision and my right and for you to act like asking for decent human behavior that we expect from anyone else is an unrealistic expectation from our politicians then maybe you need to reevaluate your standards. But when you put two different plates full of feces in front of me and expect me to choose, you don't get to act indignant when I refuse. My choice, my voice, I will use it however I see fit. But no one is entitled to my support.

No one said you owed any candidate your support, Chuckles. You're busy arguing the point you WISH this was about, because you don't want to face the reality of the real topic.

Your support is owed to the society around you, and the individual people who make up that society, and the society which will exist in the future. You owe it to all of the above to do what you can to make the world better, or at least to prevent it from becoming worse. And if you're more interested in congratulating yourself on your "high morals" in dismissing anything and anyone imperfect as "feces" and beneath your vaunted, oh-so-valuable vote than you are in dealing with the realities of who will make things better and who will work evil, then YOU are the one not meeting basic decent human behavior.

You're of the opinion that I must vote or otherwise I'm allowing evil to take place. In order for that than you certainly do feel that I owe someone my support. What you don't realize is that a vote of no confidence is still a vote. You want me to vote for someone, than put up someone worth voting for. But try as you might, you don't get to dictate my actions. I have every right to refuse my vote to those who I feel are undeserving.

You are inferring far more respect for you than I actually have. Get over yourself.

To break this down in simple terms, I asked how anyone could claim to be undecided at this point in time, and you told me how morally superior you were for not making any choices, and I told you you were full of shit. That's it, that's all. I haven't demanded that you stop being full of shit; I'm just exercising my right to recognize that you're full of shit.

 

[Cecilie1200]

you posted it as you were special in your decision making prospects. You imply others don't have a high bar for people they vote for. again, it would seem you either have someone who matches all your criteria or no one. Compromise is necessary, otherwise you'd never get a candidate voted in. What a waste of a vote.

I never implied I was special. All I did was state my own criteria. And I am well aware that my bar is so high that I probably won't be voting any time soon. But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

If the alternative is to allow someone who will destroy the nation to become President, yes.

Both parties are always convinced the other one wants to destroy the nation. I'm not buying into that.

If people actually talked to one another with the intent to listen and learn then we would actually begin to try and do what's best for this nation and hold our leaders accountable equally.

Most independents are always convinced that everything is about "parties", and can just be dismissed as beneath them without any real thought.

If people who blather about "talk to one another with the intent to listen and learn" would actually LISTEN AND LEARN, they might not spend as much time posting nonsensical "responses" to posts which have no relation to what's being said in the post.

And yes, I AM calling you a pretentious hypocrite, just in case that wasn't clear.

I really don't care what you call me. But if you think asking for people to behave like adults is blathering than you're more out of touch than you realize.

Thank you for proving my point. You may toddle back to your meaningless preening now.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The "moderates" at this point are assholes who refuse to acknowledge RIGHT Vs. WRONG and sit on a fence they created in their own mind preening themselves and acting as if they're superior because they refuse to take a stand until one side defeats the other.

Miserable pathetic pieces of shit that have nothing to fight for and are only interested in their own ends.

Then there are leftist pieces of shit like Mac1958 who pretend to be "moderate" like fakey, yet they're still just as bigoted and ignorant as any other liberal parasite.


.

I've been an independent from the first time I voted and won't likely change that.

Your description doesn't match the independents I know and it sure as hell isn't me.

Okay, so how does that play out for you in the real world of having to choose a President?

I have voted for democrats and voted for republicans.


What is it you're having a hard time understanding?

The rational and/or moral reasoning which leads to that. What is it YOU are having a hard time understanding about the question?

 

[Mac1958]

I really feel no need to apologize for having a mind of my own.
being a drone in the hive has never appealed to me.

What's amazing is how proud they are to be obedient sheep, without any independent thought or (worse) curiosity.

What's been done to them is pretty powerful.
.

 

[Cecilie1200]

so you don't vote

Not unless someone good comes along.

So meanwhile, someone awful is welcome to take over while you wait for someone who meets your standards of good.

You remind me of Mitt Romney. A moral stance, taken in a vacuum with no reference to the ethical situation to which it will be applied, can all-too-easily become immoral in its evil consequences. And you can quote me on that.

We already have something awful because people refuse to listen and talk. Hate has become fashionable and people cheer on the insults and jabs made at others simply for having a different view point. How do you suppose we make something great from division and rhetoric? It's only by us being the very best that we can that we'll get the people worth leading us. But to say that I "have" to support someone is ridiculous. Settling for meh is a horrible way to give someone a nob.

Be the change you want to see in the world, by actually saying something real for people to listen to, instead of spewing all these vague generalities at me. Please explain to me how 1) choosing one candidate who's better than the other despite neither of them being perfect makes hate fashionable, and 2) what your policy of doing not a damned thing except for lecturing everyone about how you're morally superior by doing not a damned thing somehow makes that better.

I'll wait.

How is asking for someone to be honest and respectful vague? Do you keep people in your life who treat you like crap, or do you look for those who actually talk to you like a person? It's not that difficult.

And I'm still not sure how voting for someone who hates others simply for their opinions is the same as me fighting evil. Maybe you can explain that one.

How is that vague? Well, let me see. There's the word "someone", for a start. WHICH someone did you have in mind? Then there's, y'know, the whole part where I spelled out EXACTLY what being specific would entail, which you skipped right over to give me a platitudinous lecture on relationships that reads a lot like a Facebook meme.

Maybe instead of asking me for explanations over and over, you could try just reading the explanations I've already given. You remember, that whole "listen and learn" thing you were dribbling on about earlier.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Please don't. We already have more than enough people selling their soul for politicians who don't give two shits about them.

We need more people who are willing to hold people to standards.
.

I'll never vote "the lesser of two evils" or do it to spite a candidate because of the actions of someone else. Their are some things in this life we can compromise on, morals should not be one of them.

I have a moral for you. Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good.

I'm not asking for perfect, I'm asking for common human decency. The same that I want from all the people in my life.

See my last post, re: vague generalities. Butch up and try a few specifics. It only hurts for a moment. EXACTLY what is it you demand in a political candidate in order to bless him with your pure and holy vote, which you are not currently getting?

If common human decency is beyond your scope of understanding than I honestly don't know what to tell you. It just feels like we're talking in circles then when I say respect, honesty, and integrity. I really don't know how that can be confusing but apparently it can. I'm willing to listen if you want to try to explain.

"If you dare ask me for specifics, that means common human decency is beyond you, that way I get to storm off in a huff without giving specifics and while still flattering myself I'm above everyone else."

 

[Cecilie1200]

Their are some things in this life we can compromise on, morals should not be one of them.

Well, we're sadly far beyond that now.

We're not all required to be a part of it, thankfully.
.

The "good men" who allow evil to flourish by standing by and doing nothing are still part of it, no matter how much they assure themselves they're not.

How is my voting for someone who insults a group of people for their view points me fighting evil? If they're not qualified for the position than I'm not going to put them there.

When the alternative is to allow someone to be President who actively prohibits people from expressing their viewpoints? Hmm, let me think about that. How COULD you possibly discern a difference there?

And if the other person wants to do the same then what am I supposed to do, flip a coin?

So is that the case at the moment? You can show me specifics where both sides want to actively prohibit First Amendment rights? Or is this just a hypothetical to save your rhetorical ass?

 

[Cecilie1200]

The "moderates" at this point are assholes who refuse to acknowledge RIGHT Vs. WRONG and sit on a fence they created in their own mind preening themselves and acting as if they're superior because they refuse to take a stand until one side defeats the other.

Miserable pathetic pieces of shit that have nothing to fight for and are only interested in their own ends.

Then there are leftist pieces of shit like Mac1958 who pretend to be "moderate" like fakey, yet they're still just as bigoted and ignorant as any other liberal parasite.


.

I've been an independent from the first time I voted and won't likely change that.

Your description doesn't match the independents I know and it sure as hell isn't me.

Very hard to be independent when one side is openly hostile to having open minded thinking...

Evidence based decisions should be the middle ground but the Trump guys are very anti that... Not saying there all angels on the left but the nutty boys have taken over the GOP with their new Jesus Trump.

I will point out Trump mocked the words of Jesus at the prayer breakfast and they laughed... So I am up for Facts and Evidence so that must make me Anti-Trump.

Oh, please. You wouldn't know a fact if it slapped you upside the head, and we all know it.

What you're up for is venting your petty little emotions and pretending it's "facts and evidence".

 

[jc456]

Hey, I'm all for holding politicians to standards. I just don't see how sniffily absenting yourself from the process entirely and allowing other people to choose politicians who can't even SPELL "standards" accomplishes that.

I always used to say that ---- but then came the two awful Obama campaigns when neither candidate was worth gully dust. Now I say it's no one else's business whether I vote or don't vote or who I vote for.

This thread, and others, has been assuming that Independents are leftwing. That's wrong. We are what we are. My husband and I were registered as Independents for years, but we are both conservative. Quite a few Independents are Libertarian, and good for them.

Now I am willing to vote, since Trump showed up, and I agree that this is a poor time to be a fence sitter, but that's just my opinion. People should suit themselves.

son,

I can certainly accept your decisions, they're yours. But I have to agree with others in here, how does avoiding voting accomplish anything for you? the idiots will vote for the idiots while the others will vote for the other guy. lesser of two evils is acceptable in my mind. If I, a citizen, must endure the pain of an elitist in DC, then I want the one I can endure best. I do know that no vote, will assure me either. pfft, The reason for a vote is to actually chose the one you can live with. I don' accept your procedure as valid to come then and argue anything. Again, there isn't a perfect candidate. never will be. people pay quite a lot of money for those candidates, and promises must be made as payback. You have no skin in the game son.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I really feel no need to apologize for having a mind of my own.
being a drone in the hive has never appealed to me.

What's amazing is how proud they are to be obedient sheep, without any independent thought or (worse) curiosity.

What's been done to them is pretty powerful.
.

What's amazing is how proud YOU are to dismiss others as "sheep" without any actual evidence that that's the only alternative to your ego-stroking inactivity.

 

[jc456]

But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

Please don't. We already have more than enough people selling their soul for politicians who don't give two shits about them.

We need more people who are willing to hold people to standards.
.

Hey, I'm all for holding politicians to standards. I just don't see how sniffily absenting yourself from the process entirely and allowing other people to choose politicians who can't even SPELL "standards" accomplishes that.

I agree. So people shouldn't do that. They should stand up for their standards, even if they get incoming from both ends.
.

And in what way are you "standing up for your standards", exactly? Sanctimoniously flapping your jaw at people about how "moral" you are? Or is there something real?

And there it is.

Wingers don't like independents. We expose you for what you are.

Too bad.
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that's a useless word. but hey, thanks for playing.

 

[San Souci]

There is no common ground between the parties. The old "two sides of the same coin" paradigm of the 1990's has long past. "The establishment NO LONGER controls either party.

It's now National-Federalist-Libertarian-constitutional-republicans vs Global-Unitary-Marxist- democrats (one world mob-rule).

We want the United States to define and secure its border, maintain the Federalist doctrine of dual sovereignty , with limits on both the federal and state governments on individual persons, in accordance with an enduring social contract (that is meant to be difficult to amend) that preserves a Republican form of government.

Democrats want a global state with no border, with one big giant command center of unelected "experts," to redistribute all resources according to mob demand. LOL

Being a Randian , I am for ending welfare. And Free this and that. Why should some PAY ,while all RECEIVE?

 

[jc456]

Look, the fence sitter / Libertarian resume always sounds noble as fuck...it’s supposed to, but that doesn’t make it less ignorant.
Would I have been a total and complete dumbass if on the day of the Super Bowl I bet on the Patriots to win?
I hated both teams...the Niners and the Chiefs but one of the two were going to win...it makes first grade level sense to bet on one of the two with a chance at winning.
I know, I know...”false equivalency”....right Golfing Gator ?

I have a very high bar for the people I vote for. Basically if you have traits about you that I wouldn't want in a spouse, someone that I will spend the rest of my life with, than I'm not going to vote to put you in a position of power that effects not just me, but billions of of other people. I do not condone dishonesty or bullish behavior and I will not reward it. Now you may see that as fence sitting, but for me that is exercising the only voice I have, however miniscule it may be.

I thought that was how everyone was supposed to vote? how do you feel you are unique?

I never said I was.

you posted it as you were special in your decision making prospects. You imply others don't have a high bar for people they vote for. again, it would seem you either have someone who matches all your criteria or no one. Compromise is necessary, otherwise you'd never get a candidate voted in. What a waste of a vote.

I never implied I was special. All I did was state my own criteria. And I am well aware that my bar is so high that I probably won't be voting any time soon. But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

then you forfeited the right to talk to me or any citizen that voted. zero. your opinions don't count. We are an exercise your right or shut up country.

 

[jc456]

But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

Please don't. We already have more than enough people selling their soul for politicians who don't give two shits about them.

We need more people who are willing to hold people to standards.
.

then you forfeit the right to bitch.

 

[jc456]

Your emotions have you by the balls...daddy issues maybe?
Most of us have / had grandfathers, fathers, brothers, uncles, friends, mentors, pastors...etc etc...We don't really look to the POTUS for emotional support...we vote for real leaders pushing effective policies, leaders willing to fight for Americas best citizens. This really shouldn't be all that trivial.

The person I vote for is going to be someone who doesn't slam others just for having a different view point. They're going to be someone who doesn't feel the need to deceive or lie about themselves or others. This person will fight to unite us all, not just one party. If you want to see that as me letting my emotions getting the best of me than you go ahead. But I will not vote for someone who strives on division and hate.

oh, name one of those politicians?

I will when I find one.

so you don't vote

Not unless someone good comes along.

then you forfeit your right to discuss anything political.

 

[jc456]

I have a very high bar for the people I vote for. Basically if you have traits about you that I wouldn't want in a spouse, someone that I will spend the rest of my life with, than I'm not going to vote to put you in a position of power that effects not just me, but billions of of other people. I do not condone dishonesty or bullish behavior and I will not reward it. Now you may see that as fence sitting, but for me that is exercising the only voice I have, however miniscule it may be.

so you and mac have no compromise possible to vote for a candidate. it's all or nothing huh?

Depends on what you're asking for. I'm not so much concerned about policy position as I am over who the person is as a person.

Your emotions have you by the balls...daddy issues maybe?
Most of us have / had grandfathers, fathers, brothers, uncles, friends, mentors, pastors...etc etc...We don't really look to the POTUS for emotional support...we vote for real leaders pushing effective policies, leaders willing to fight for Americas best citizens. This really shouldn't be all that trivial.

The person I vote for is going to be someone who doesn't slam others just for having a different view point. They're going to be someone who doesn't feel the need to deceive or lie about themselves or others. This person will fight to unite us all, not just one party. If you want to see that as me letting my emotions getting the best of me than you go ahead. But I will not vote for someone who strives on division and hate.

So until Jesus Christ shows up and throws His hat in the ring, you're just going to abstain and let the world function as it will without your input? What other things in your life do you just blow off and let spiral into Hell unobstructed because of a lack of perfect choices?

must not have any insurance or bank accounts, shit there is no human perfect as you pointed out. what a dud huh? We are a nation of compromise.