How could anyone be "independent" or a "swing voter" at this time in history?

[flacaltenn]

There is no common ground between the parties. The old "two sides of the same coin" paradigm of the 1990's has long past. "The establishment NO LONGER controls either party.

It's now National-Federalist-Libertarian-constitutional-republicans vs Global-Unitary-Marxist- democrats (one world mob-rule).

We want the United States to define and secure its border, maintain the Federalist doctrine of dual sovereignty , with limits on both the federal and state governments on individual persons, in accordance with an enduring social contract (that is meant to be difficult to amend) that preserves a Republican form of government.

Democrats want a global state with no border, with one big giant command center of unelected "experts," to redistribute all resources according to mob demand. LOL

It's a good thing that the establishment no longer controls either party.. That "uni-party" is the CAUSE of the polarization and COMPLETE DYSFUNCTION in D.C..

The spineless Repubs vs the theatrical Dems is no longer... Repubs don't HIDE under the table for fear of bad press.. We don't get the same sucky foreign policy from the both of them...

The real question is --- How could anyone NOT be an independent or swing voter if their parties have gone to the corners of the political spectrum? Those 2 inept, corrupt, ARROGANT parties have "remodeled Congress and the Electoral map" to feather their 2 party dominance... Speaker of the House USED to be a token position with NOT much power...

ONLY FOUR PEOPLE IN CONGRESS MATTER --- because the underlings are muzzled and threatened by those 4 party bosses.... There IS NO "independent thinking or problem solving",,, Just tactics to WIN and PRESERVE their own power.. That's NOT the constitutional design of that body.. The DemReps have PIRATED IT and made it in THEIR image..

Only about a dozen TRUE INDEPENDENTS in that body can fix any of this... And that's EXACTLY what we need.. Time to stop voting for "winners', because we all LOSING Biggly...
\

 

[Markle]

Is it your position that both parties are pushing the same policies with the same convictions?
Please spare us the Michael Moore conspiracy theory bullshit. Thanks in advance.

I don't believe the two parties have ever been further apart. The Democrats are sharply divided among themselves. The far-left featuring Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are promising everything under sun free to anyone who votes for them. Hillary Clinton has come out against both their policies and the DNC knows she is right. Nominating either for President assures President Trump another landslide victory.

Democrats are beside themselves with no plan forward. They see President Donald Trump as a permanent threat to their way of running the nation.

When President Ronald Reagan was in office, House Speaker Tip O'Neil and he would have rabid fights over policy during the day. At night, they would meet for drinks. Both wanted what was best for the country. That is not the case today. Nancy Pelosi and in her latest display of childlike behavior has shown she would cut off her nose to spite her face.

 

[flacaltenn]

The "moderates" at this point are assholes who refuse to acknowledge RIGHT Vs. WRONG and sit on a fence they created in their own mind preening themselves and acting as if they're superior because they refuse to take a stand until one side defeats the other.

No sir Mr. Pete, we're the ONLY ONES that recognize RIGHT vs WRONG.. The party animals (including you unfortunately) practice PARTISAN moral judgements depending on their PARTY interests and the hypocrisy of IGNORING right from wrong on a "situational basis" is the stuff that makes the USMB Politics great....

No one gets EVER gets punished.. It's hard to punish incompetence or even illegal acts.. Apparently you can run a 3 year coup against an opponent even AFTER he's elected and not have the fucking "party media" even whisper about it..

You expect this to GET BETTER by VANQUISHING one of these archaic and useless parties??? THere's TOO MUCH POWER AT STAKE to allow that to happen even if the victors wear WHITE hats or rainbow hats and sing gospel...

You need leaders that THINK and ACT independently on PRINCIPLE and conscience.. Take a former Repub or Demo and let them win an INDEPENDENT seat in Congress and they will immediately APPEAR smarter, more likeable and faster to fix things....

 

[Markle]

No one in this thread has stated the obvious yet...........

Trump is Republican only recently and only because it was a winning strategy. Most of his life he was a NY Democrat. In fact, he has changed several times.
That would, in reality, make him more of an Independent than most any elected Prez in modern history.

So those of you arguing neither party is legit and calling yourselves Independent or Moderate should see Trump as a life raft. YOUR GUY.

And those of you saying the Republican party is the best should see your folly as well.

It may require a bit of common sense and higher thinking to see this however.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

and you claim you don't support the democrats when you vote supports them and you bragged about not caring lol
YOU'RE TOTALLY TRANSPARENT

Would you like to try that in English this time?

I'll be happy to respond if you can be coherent.
.

Your dodge is noted

Last try: I definitely think of myself as a left-leaning Independent, and I vote Democrat more often than Republican.

I have also had a few thousand squabbles with people I refer to as the Regressive Left here. Use the search function. You should be able to handle that.

So, I'm just not ideological.

I don't know how I can make this any more fucking simple for you people. I'm tired of pretending that I'm talking to six year olds.
.

Damn you fucking moron take a few comprehension class. Children can't comprehend adult thought process maybe that's your problem
You're transparent if you vote Independent your vote goes to the democrat party. But most on here that know what you write already know you hold an allegiance to the democrats

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I think there is just a touch of misunderstanding on your part, bigreb. Just because one is a registered Independent (I am not, for the record), doesn't mean he or she necessarily votes for the candidate with the "I" next to their name. Since there is no official Independent party, and candidates who identify as Independents aren't common, they are as likely to vote for a Democrat as they are a Republican, or any other party for that matter. Just my opinion...

You might want to pay attention to the ones who agreed with you. When two leftist agree with you their might actually be something of an error in your thought.

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

No one in this thread has stated the obvious yet...........

Trump is Republican only recently and only because it was a winning strategy. Most of his life he was a NY Democrat. In fact, he has changed several times.
That would, in reality, make him more of an Independent than most any elected Prez in modern history.

So those of you arguing neither party is legit and calling yourselves Independent or Moderate should see Trump as a life raft. YOUR GUY.

And those of you saying the Republican party is the best should see your folly as well.

It may require a bit of common sense and higher thinking to see this however.

You unknowingly agreed with what I just said almost to a "T"....

President Donald Trump is NOT a politician. He is a tough, battle-hardened, billionaire businessman. He didn't get where he is by watching his every comment or "Tip Toeing Through the Tulips".

No president in history has been more transparent. "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" is out there every day. If you can't handle that, don't blame anyone else.

Yeahhhh....like I said....it requires a bit more. Those fixated on extremes can't see.
Thanks for trying.

 

[Markle]

The person I vote for is going to be someone who doesn't slam others just for having a different view point. They're going to be someone who doesn't feel the need to deceive or lie about themselves or others. This person will fight to unite us all, not just one party. If you want to see that as me letting my emotions getting the best of me than you go ahead. But I will not vote for someone who strives on division and hate.

So you believe that a leader who will not play hardball and fight for what he believes is best for the country? Why?

We had that in the last administration and that was a total failure. Why are you so intimidated by and afraid of the great successes we have seen since President Donald Trump took office?

 

[Andylusion]

There is no common ground between the parties. The old "two sides of the same coin" paradigm of the 1990's has long past. "The establishment NO LONGER controls either party.

It's now National-Federalist-Libertarian-constitutional-republicans vs Global-Unitary-Marxist- democrats (one world mob-rule).

We want the United States to define and secure its border, maintain the Federalist doctrine of dual sovereignty , with limits on both the federal and state governments on individual persons, in accordance with an enduring social contract (that is meant to be difficult to amend) that preserves a Republican form of government.

Democrats want a global state with no border, with one big giant command center of unelected "experts," to redistribute all resources according to mob demand. LOL

It does seem hard to conceive how anyone could not have a definitive position by now. Back when Democrats and Republicans were generally closer together on policy, you could imagine degrees of difference, but now the two main parties are at opposite ends of many issues. Hard to see how anyone could be in the middle here.

 

[Circe]

It does seem hard to conceive how anyone could not have a definitive position by now. Back when Democrats and Republicans were generally closer together on policy, you could imagine degrees of difference, but now the two main parties are at opposite ends of many issues. Hard to see how anyone could be in the middle here.

But if they are, or have some (any) other reason to be "independent," whatever that means for them, I respect that. People get to decide for themselves. Democracy is not an exercise in totalitarianism.

 

[Markle]

But is asking for someone with honesty and integrity someone you should compromise on?

Please don't. We already have more than enough people selling their soul for politicians who don't give two shits about them.

We need more people who are willing to hold people to standards.
.

Hey, I'm all for holding politicians to standards. I just don't see how sniffily absenting yourself from the process entirely and allowing other people to choose politicians who can't even SPELL "standards" accomplishes that.

I agree. So people shouldn't do that. They should stand up for their standards, even if they get incoming from both ends.
.

For my two cents, I am thrilled that you don't vote and hope you don't change your mind. You would be a danger to our country. So just keep on...keepin' on!

 

[initforme]

Hard to see how anyone could be in the middle? What a stupid statement. Some of us are sick of the filthy underhanded money that is involved in the joke that is our current political situation. The little guy is currently unrepresented and the little guy is the one doing the actual work. I can say that a good productive worker should be willing to stick it to their employer by walking away when most needed. Loyalty is a POOR quality nowadays. Fact.

 

[flacaltenn]

You're transparent if you vote Independent your vote goes to the democrat party.

Error in logic there. His independent vote does NOT "go to the Democrats". His vote goes to a candidate that he likes and trusts BETTER than bad choices that the DemReps are offering... It's called voting conscience and for principles... NOT MERELY --- trying to win..

Don't care which of the inept dysfunctional parties you're a slave to... If you HELP push lousy candidates just to WIN -- theyre never gonna try to find BETTER choices to offer..

If Bernie or Tulsi gets screwed AGAIN by the DNC --- and either or both decide to run Independent, the Dems VOTING FOR THEM -- are voting for PRINCIPLE and their conscience --- NOT helping Repubs to win...

There is no reason America is BOUND to have the SAME 2 parties in opposition for so long.. It's NOT healthy.. And it makes people BELIEVE the sky is gonna fall if they leave those archaic and power hungry parties...

 

[flacaltenn]

There is no common ground between the parties. The old "two sides of the same coin" paradigm of the 1990's has long past. "The establishment NO LONGER controls either party.

It's now National-Federalist-Libertarian-constitutional-republicans vs Global-Unitary-Marxist- democrats (one world mob-rule).

We want the United States to define and secure its border, maintain the Federalist doctrine of dual sovereignty , with limits on both the federal and state governments on individual persons, in accordance with an enduring social contract (that is meant to be difficult to amend) that preserves a Republican form of government.

Democrats want a global state with no border, with one big giant command center of unelected "experts," to redistribute all resources according to mob demand. LOL

It does seem hard to conceive how anyone could not have a definitive position by now. Back when Democrats and Republicans were generally closer together on policy, you could imagine degrees of difference, but now the two main parties are at opposite ends of many issues. Hard to see how anyone could be in the middle here.

There IS NO "definitive position"... The hasty retreat of the Dems to the far left corner of your silly one dimensional spectrum is a great example of that.. THey've fucking left both Hillary and Obama in the dust stampeding to the deepest darkest leftmost authoritarian position in the political spectrum.. Even James "the Lizard" Carville and van Jones have come out of hibernation to slap them back into reality..

Repubs don't have a "definitive position" either.. Because they've lost their sense of responsibility for MANAGING the government, actually living by a budget and can ignore such Civil Liberties violations as the Patriot Act and FISA courts -- EVEN AFTER THEIR PARTY IS A VICTIM of this abuse.. WTF they waiting on?

Maybe THEY want to abuse to abuse the Big Brother spy machine themselves...


Because both parties have become focused SOLELY on gaining and maintaining power.. Both of them have ABANDONED basic protections of Civil Liberties, the budget, foreign affairs, and OVERSIGHT of the monstrous BLOB that they've both created....

You CANNOT represent ALL views with 2 parties that do not have SOLID principles... Not possible.. And BOTH are becoming MORE Authoritarian, BIGGER govt --- which ought to scare the piss out of most of you.... At least the rational ones..

 

[Red Wolf]

Both parties are always convinced the other one wants to destroy the nation. I'm not buying into that.

If people actually talked to one another with the intent to listen and learn then we would actually begin to try and do what's best for this nation and hold our leaders accountable equally.

Most independents are always convinced that everything is about "parties", and can just be dismissed as beneath them without any real thought.

If people who blather about "talk to one another with the intent to listen and learn" would actually LISTEN AND LEARN, they might not spend as much time posting nonsensical "responses" to posts which have no relation to what's being said in the post.

And yes, I AM calling you a pretentious hypocrite, just in case that wasn't clear.

I really don't care what you call me. But if you think asking for people to behave like adults is blathering than you're more out of touch than you realize.

Thank you for proving my point. You may toddle back to your meaningless preening now.

Thank you for your much needed permission.

well actually no vote equals a forfeiture of expression into our country's political needs.

No vote is the same as a vote of no confidence. You seem to think the only way to voice an opinion is by actually casting a vote, but when everyone who is running is a horrible choice than how do you justify voting for incompetence? Let me put it like this, if it were between Mac and myself and their was absolutely no one else to vote for, would you vote for one of us or would you wait until the next time to see if someone whose ideals were more in line with yours showed up?

 

[Red Wolf]

Both parties are always convinced the other one wants to destroy the nation. I'm not buying into that.

If people actually talked to one another with the intent to listen and learn then we would actually begin to try and do what's best for this nation and hold our leaders accountable equally.

Most independents are always convinced that everything is about "parties", and can just be dismissed as beneath them without any real thought.

If people who blather about "talk to one another with the intent to listen and learn" would actually LISTEN AND LEARN, they might not spend as much time posting nonsensical "responses" to posts which have no relation to what's being said in the post.

And yes, I AM calling you a pretentious hypocrite, just in case that wasn't clear.

I really don't care what you call me. But if you think asking for people to behave like adults is blathering than you're more out of touch than you realize.

Thank you for proving my point. You may toddle back to your meaningless preening now.

Thank you for your much needed permission.

well actually no vote equals a forfeiture of expression into our country's political needs.

Good luck with enforcing that.

 

[OldLady]

The "moderates" at this point are assholes who refuse to acknowledge RIGHT Vs. WRONG and sit on a fence they created in their own mind preening themselves and acting as if they're superior because they refuse to take a stand until one side defeats the other.

Miserable pathetic pieces of shit that have nothing to fight for and are only interested in their own ends.

Then there are leftist pieces of shit like Mac1958 who pretend to be "moderate" like fakey, yet they're still just as bigoted and ignorant as any other liberal parasite.


.

Independent doesn't mean moderate, Pete. It means not a Dem or a Republican. I don't appreciate that crap outta your mouth.

 

[Red Wolf]

I agree. So people shouldn't do that. They should stand up for their standards, even if they get incoming from both ends.
.

And in what way are you "standing up for your standards", exactly? Sanctimoniously flapping your jaw at people about how "moral" you are? Or is there something real?

You're the one who's preaching at me because you feel I must take an action. But if you think asking for kindness, respect, and honesty is me being sanctimonious than have at it.

You misunderstand. I don't care if you "take an action" or not. In fact, from listening to you talk, I think you're probably making the world a better place by sparing us your involvement.

What I'm actually "preaching" at you about is seeing a different perspective on your choices, or non-choices as the case may be.

What I continue to think is that your prattling about vagueries like "I'm just asking for kindness, respect, and honesty, and how DARE you expect me to be specific about what that actually means, just admire me for using good words!" is so much self-flattering hogwash.

kindness
[ˈkīn(d)nəs]
NOUN

1. the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate.

respect
[rəˈspekt]
NOUN

1. a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.
   "the director had a lot of respect for Douglas as an actor"
   
   
2. due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others.
   "young people's lack of respect for their parents"
   synonyms:
   due regard · 
   [more]
3. a particular aspect, point, or detail.
   "the government's record in this respect is a mixed one"

integrity
[inˈteɡrədē]
NOUN

1. the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.
   "he is known to be a man of integrity"

I'm sorry if those words trigger and confuse you.

Oh, I'm sorry, was your massive ego not able to process the concept of someone finding no more value in your conversation?

Piss off, lightweight. You and your dickless self-justification are boring.

All you've done is preach to others how they're wrong for not acting in a manner that you approve of and I'm the one with the ego? I have plenty of flaws and I'll never pretend otherwise, but one thing I'll never do is act like I'm entitled to the actions of another person. But I'm sure your ego will justify that for you.

 

[Markle]

Hard to see how anyone could be in the middle? What a stupid statement. Some of us are sick of the filthy underhanded money that is involved in the joke that is our current political situation. The little guy is currently unrepresented and the little guy is the one doing the actual work. I can say that a good productive worker should be willing to stick it to their employer by walking away when most needed. Loyalty is a POOR quality nowadays. Fact.

The little guy is unrepresented?

Who foots the bill?

"A good productive worker should be willing to stick it to their employer"? You are one sick puppy! Seek help!

 

[Red Wolf]

We already have something awful because people refuse to listen and talk. Hate has become fashionable and people cheer on the insults and jabs made at others simply for having a different view point. How do you suppose we make something great from division and rhetoric? It's only by us being the very best that we can that we'll get the people worth leading us. But to say that I "have" to support someone is ridiculous. Settling for meh is a horrible way to give someone a nob.

Be the change you want to see in the world, by actually saying something real for people to listen to, instead of spewing all these vague generalities at me. Please explain to me how 1) choosing one candidate who's better than the other despite neither of them being perfect makes hate fashionable, and 2) what your policy of doing not a damned thing except for lecturing everyone about how you're morally superior by doing not a damned thing somehow makes that better.

I'll wait.

How is asking for someone to be honest and respectful vague? Do you keep people in your life who treat you like crap, or do you look for those who actually talk to you like a person? It's not that difficult.

And I'm still not sure how voting for someone who hates others simply for their opinions is the same as me fighting evil. Maybe you can explain that one.

How is that vague? Well, let me see. There's the word "someone", for a start. WHICH someone did you have in mind? Then there's, y'know, the whole part where I spelled out EXACTLY what being specific would entail, which you skipped right over to give me a platitudinous lecture on relationships that reads a lot like a Facebook meme.

Maybe instead of asking me for explanations over and over, you could try just reading the explanations I've already given. You remember, that whole "listen and learn" thing you were dribbling on about earlier.

You're accusing me of ignoring your explanations while you ignore the ones I gave. You really do need to be a little more self aware.

your vote of nothing gets you nothing.

Sorry, I'm not for sale like some of you seem to be.

 

[Red Wolf]

I don't owe anyone my support. Who I back is my decision and my right and for you to act like asking for decent human behavior that we expect from anyone else is an unrealistic expectation from our politicians then maybe you need to reevaluate your standards. But when you put two different plates full of feces in front of me and expect me to choose, you don't get to act indignant when I refuse. My choice, my voice, I will use it however I see fit. But no one is entitled to my support.

No one said you owed any candidate your support, Chuckles. You're busy arguing the point you WISH this was about, because you don't want to face the reality of the real topic.

Your support is owed to the society around you, and the individual people who make up that society, and the society which will exist in the future. You owe it to all of the above to do what you can to make the world better, or at least to prevent it from becoming worse. And if you're more interested in congratulating yourself on your "high morals" in dismissing anything and anyone imperfect as "feces" and beneath your vaunted, oh-so-valuable vote than you are in dealing with the realities of who will make things better and who will work evil, then YOU are the one not meeting basic decent human behavior.

You're of the opinion that I must vote or otherwise I'm allowing evil to take place. In order for that than you certainly do feel that I owe someone my support. What you don't realize is that a vote of no confidence is still a vote. You want me to vote for someone, than put up someone worth voting for. But try as you might, you don't get to dictate my actions. I have every right to refuse my vote to those who I feel are undeserving.

You are inferring far more respect for you than I actually have. Get over yourself.

To break this down in simple terms, I asked how anyone could claim to be undecided at this point in time, and you told me how morally superior you were for not making any choices, and I told you you were full of shit. That's it, that's all. I haven't demanded that you stop being full of shit; I'm just exercising my right to recognize that you're full of shit.

Me not voting for someone because I have standards equals me being full of shit. Okay. You have fun with that.

And you're still talking. Shoo.

Yes I am. Public forums are funny like that.