How did the Universe get here?

[edthecynic]

"Proven FLoT" is a PHYSICAL condition. It does not exist unless physical reality exists. Singularity is the theoretical beginning of a "Big Bang" not what preceded it. The simple scientific fact is, we do not know what preceded the Singularity, or if the Singularity actually happened, for that matter. It could be that our universe and physical reality came to exist when it split from another universe or collided with another universe. This is what unified field theory and string theory seek to discover, but nothing is conclusive or known at this time.

The singularity is BOTH the theoretical end of the Big Crunch and the beginning of the Big Bang. It is a singularity where energy/matter are neither expanding nor contracting.

Picture tossing a ball straight up in the air, it rises to a singular point and no farther before it falls back to the ground. At the highest point for a singular moment it is neither rising nor falling, it still exists but for that singular moment it is not moving.

What you need to learn is that just because something is not moving, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

When is the last time you threw a ball into the air and it continued to accelerate faster and faster? IF that happened, at what point would it logically reach this "singularity" point?

As I stated before, this WAS a viable theory at one time, when physicists believed that the universe was expanding but slowing down. We now know that it is not slowing down but speeding up. There is no logical way for it to reverse itself from this... see Newton's Laws of Motion. Like I said... you essentially have a "Flat Earth" theory here.

When you are reduced to a Straw Man, you prove me right, thank you.

Well, a speeding up universe shoots down your entropy theory because if the universe was loosing energy due to entropy it would be slowing down.

As far as the Big Crunch, anything sucked into the vortex of a black hole will be accelerated, not slowed down, except to someone as ass backwards as you. You have been ass backwards on everything so far, and I highly doubt that you will change no matter how many times it is explained to you.

 

[AVG-JOE]

For the same reason that some humans insist that the universe must have been created. If the universe always was there is no need for a creator.

What do dating methods have to do with anything? They are only relevant if matter, specifically the periodic table, has been formed. There was no periodic table before the big bang.

Yes, if the Universe was eternal there would be no need for a creator. But being that it is just right for life to flourish on this planet I believe it was created.

Dating methods put an age on the Universe and life.

I can fully understand that to some intelligent minds it seems a remarkable coincidense that life happened here. One might ask "how is it that we are so lucky?"

We can break it down like the "goldilocks" approach to a planetary comfort zone for the possibility of life to exist in the universe. Subtracting the known potential for disaster and extinction they(the scientists) speculate that there are possibly billions of planets that would be good places for life to start and flourish.

Yes we do live in an extremely interesting time and place. The cosmic dice were tossed and we won without having to do anything but survive. A few million years one way or the other and poof...we are gone. It all seems just a little TOO fortunate.

Then some joker(me) says very calmly and plainly... "Hey!...what's the big deal? Get a grip! We are here. That's all we need to know."

There is/was no hocus pocus...just dumb luck. There is no "Why". Just enjoy the ride...it won't be forever. Even if we survive ourselves and some killer asteroid in the future or a predatory alien race that follows our dinner bell beacons back to Earth eventually the universe will collapse in a trillion years and there isn't a damned thing we can do about it.

My guess is that there have been races of intelligent beings many times in the infinite past that have lived right up till the monster black hole...the biggest and last one swallowed up the previous universe and the ones before that. I bet they ALL thought they were special.

I like the way you're thinking, HUGGY.

My guess is that wet, living planets are a dime a dozen, planets with enough luck and Time for life to evolve to a point where death is understood happen, and living planets with enough Time and luck to give rise to a Sentient World are rare indeed.

Earth Monkeys are so fucking close it hurts.

 

[BobPlumb]

What is the definition of universe? Some people are referring to other universes. Would multiple universes simply be sub-universes of one gigantic possibly infinite main universe. Think of the outermost circle on a Venn diagram containing many smaller circles inside.

I think what you have to do here is suspend everything you understand about reality for a moment and consider that everything you've ever known and comprehended as "reality" is merely perception of spacetime continuum happening in a physical state.

We have no idea, concept, or ability to comprehend what another universe might be like. All we can relate to is what we understand of our own universe and the parameters of physical existence within our own space and time. Our concept of "logic" and "physics" simply may not be applicable to another universe. Does "time" exist there as it does here? Or maybe there is yet another dimension we can't even imagine? Perhaps "space" is restricted to one direction the way time is here, and "time" is as space is here? We cannot comprehend such a universe, it is out of our realm of understanding. Perhaps spiritual or metaphysical entities argue on message boards about the possibility of "physical" existence?

The limits of our comprehension no more limits the universe than a fly's comprehension limits the universe. Just because parts of the universe may be escaping our abilities to perceive and understand does not mean that it is not there.

I purpose that a good definition of THE UNIVERSE is the collection and expanse of all existence.

 

[Boss]

What is the definition of universe? Some people are referring to other universes. Would multiple universes simply be sub-universes of one gigantic possibly infinite main universe. Think of the outermost circle on a Venn diagram containing many smaller circles inside.

I think what you have to do here is suspend everything you understand about reality for a moment and consider that everything you've ever known and comprehended as "reality" is merely perception of spacetime continuum happening in a physical state.

We have no idea, concept, or ability to comprehend what another universe might be like. All we can relate to is what we understand of our own universe and the parameters of physical existence within our own space and time. Our concept of "logic" and "physics" simply may not be applicable to another universe. Does "time" exist there as it does here? Or maybe there is yet another dimension we can't even imagine? Perhaps "space" is restricted to one direction the way time is here, and "time" is as space is here? We cannot comprehend such a universe, it is out of our realm of understanding. Perhaps spiritual or metaphysical entities argue on message boards about the possibility of "physical" existence?

The limits of our comprehension no more limits the universe than a fly's comprehension limits the universe. Just because parts of the universe may be escaping our abilities to perceive and understand does not mean that it is not there.

I purpose that a good definition of THE UNIVERSE is the collection and expanse of all existence.

I didn't say our limits of comprehension limited the universe. Just our limits of comprehension. I also didn't say parts of our universe are not there. I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but it's not from what I have posted.

Now you have presented a valid and logical summation of how to define our universe, and I can't argue with that... BUT... what is "expanse of all existence" in rational meaning? What you mean by "exist" is material stuff... matter.... energy... atoms... but these are all frequency response of probability outcome. They appear to "exist" because we have physical perception in a material universe which is constantly expanding, creating time and space for them to exist in. As Albert Einstein said, "Reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one."

 

[Boss]

The singularity is BOTH the theoretical end of the Big Crunch and the beginning of the Big Bang. It is a singularity where energy/matter are neither expanding nor contracting.

Picture tossing a ball straight up in the air, it rises to a singular point and no farther before it falls back to the ground. At the highest point for a singular moment it is neither rising nor falling, it still exists but for that singular moment it is not moving.

What you need to learn is that just because something is not moving, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

When is the last time you threw a ball into the air and it continued to accelerate faster and faster? IF that happened, at what point would it logically reach this "singularity" point?

As I stated before, this WAS a viable theory at one time, when physicists believed that the universe was expanding but slowing down. We now know that it is not slowing down but speeding up. There is no logical way for it to reverse itself from this... see Newton's Laws of Motion. Like I said... you essentially have a "Flat Earth" theory here.

When you are reduced to a Straw Man, you prove me right, thank you.

Well, a speeding up universe shoots down your entropy theory because if the universe was loosing energy due to entropy it would be slowing down.

As far as the Big Crunch, anything sucked into the vortex of a black hole will be accelerated, not slowed down, except to someone as ass backwards as you. You have been ass backwards on everything so far, and I highly doubt that you will change no matter how many times it is explained to you.

Entropy is not a theory, it's a known circumstance of reality in our physical universe. And let's be perfectly clear, according to Newtonian physics and everything we thought we knew about our universe, it SHOULD be slowing down. But it's not.

Now personally, I don't give a damn how many times you spew that I am "ass backwards" here, if that makes you feel good about being totally schooled and owned on a message board, you go for it dude! I don't blame you one bit! All I am doing is interjecting things we've discovered about universe, mostly in the past 20-30 years. Debunking your "flat earth" theories that virtually no credible scientist supports any longer. The universe is NOT cyclical like we once thought, that theory has been debunked and discredited. There will never be a "Big Crunch" because things in motion stay in motion unless something acts on them to change the motion. We've known that for 500 years, but for a while we thought that gravity was the force which would act on the motion of the universe to slow it and eventually change the motion to enable this "cycle" you believe in, and now we know that isn't the case. The universe is expanding faster, and not because the entire universe is being sucked into a black hole. You've watched too much sci-fi.

Black holes are places in our universe where chunks of matter in the universe are expanding faster than the speed of light, which is technically impossible according to classical physics... not supposed to happen. If something is increasing velocity to beyond physical limitations, it's difficult to believe in a theory that this process will somehow reverse itself. It's much more rational to consider quantum physics and acknowledge that we simply do not have all the answers at this time.

 

[PostmodernProph]

No...we do not know that. All we seem to be sure of is the SIZE of the universe before and after the Big Bang.

From what I can tell the CONTENT of the universe was the same....just packaged in a much smaller size.

The space between the elements of today's atoms is almost infinite.

Why was all that matter and energy concentrated into such a small space? I mean, how did that happen?

Gravity

doesn't matter cause gravity?......

 

[PostmodernProph]

Not quite! Science says the space/time we live in had a beginning,

and isn't the space/time we live in, our universe?.......if it is outside our space and time it would be outside of our universe.....

 

[edthecynic]

When is the last time you threw a ball into the air and it continued to accelerate faster and faster? IF that happened, at what point would it logically reach this "singularity" point?

As I stated before, this WAS a viable theory at one time, when physicists believed that the universe was expanding but slowing down. We now know that it is not slowing down but speeding up. There is no logical way for it to reverse itself from this... see Newton's Laws of Motion. Like I said... you essentially have a "Flat Earth" theory here.

When you are reduced to a Straw Man, you prove me right, thank you.

Well, a speeding up universe shoots down your entropy theory because if the universe was loosing energy due to entropy it would be slowing down.

As far as the Big Crunch, anything sucked into the vortex of a black hole will be accelerated, not slowed down, except to someone as ass backwards as you. You have been ass backwards on everything so far, and I highly doubt that you will change no matter how many times it is explained to you.

Entropy is not a theory, it's a known circumstance of reality in our physical universe. And let's be perfectly clear, according to Newtonian physics and everything we thought we knew about our universe, it SHOULD be slowing down. But it's not.

Now personally, I don't give a damn how many times you spew that I am "ass backwards" here, if that makes you feel good about being totally schooled and owned on a message board, you go for it dude! I don't blame you one bit! All I am doing is interjecting things we've discovered about universe, mostly in the past 20-30 years. Debunking your "flat earth" theories that virtually no credible scientist supports any longer. The universe is NOT cyclical like we once thought, that theory has been debunked and discredited. There will never be a "Big Crunch" because things in motion stay in motion unless something acts on them to change the motion. We've known that for 500 years, but for a while we thought that gravity was the force which would act on the motion of the universe to slow it and eventually change the motion to enable this "cycle" you believe in, and now we know that isn't the case. The universe is expanding faster, and not because the entire universe is being sucked into a black hole. You've watched too much sci-fi.

Black holes are places in our universe where chunks of matter in the universe are expanding faster than the speed of light, which is technically impossible according to classical physics... not supposed to happen. If something is increasing velocity to beyond physical limitations, it's difficult to believe in a theory that this process will somehow reverse itself. It's much more rational to consider quantum physics and acknowledge that we simply do not have all the answers at this time.

It has not been debunked, it being challenged by the unproven invisible unknown "dark matter and dark energy." Eventually the acceleration at the extremes of the universe will be found not to be due to dark matter and dark energy, but to the super massive universal black hole. Both theories need more data to establish one or the other, neither has been debunked or proven. More scientists may be leaning toward dark matter and dark energy today, but there is no consensus and nothing is proven.

You just make shit up and claim your fantasies debunk all competing theories.

 

[edthecynic]

Not quite! Science says the space/time we live in had a beginning,

and isn't the space/time we live in, our universe?.......if it is outside our space and time it would be outside of our universe.....

Space/time is the movement of our universe of energy/matter. Time exists only in terms of motion. Time equals Distance divided by Rate, t=d/r.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science...displacement-velocity-time/v/solving-for-time

 

[Boss]

It has not been debunked, it being challenged by the unproven invisible unknown "dark matter and dark energy." Eventually the acceleration at the extremes of the universe will be found not to be due to dark matter and dark energy, but to the super massive universal black hole. Both theories need more data to establish one or the other, neither has been debunked or proven. More scientists may be leaning toward dark matter and dark energy today, but there is no consensus and nothing is proven.

You just make shit up and claim your fantasies debunk all competing theories.

Sorry, but the "Big Bang/Crunch Cycle" theory has been debunked. Dark matter and dark energy comprise 96% of our universe. You cannot say what will "eventually" be found, you are not a fortune teller. You can claim to have FAITH in something that is not in evidence. Is that what you are claiming here? A faith-based belief in something you have no evidence for? If so, get yourself a funny looking hat and scepter and start speaking in Latin, you can form your own Religion!

You're right, there is no consensus and nothing is proven, so why are you acting like there is consensus and something is proven? Attacking people who challenge you when you make such ridiculous claims? Just man up and admit you don't have any idea what the fuck you're talking about and you've adopted a faith-based belief system that you don't intend to budge from! I could respect that!

 

[Boss]

Not quite! Science says the space/time we live in had a beginning,

and isn't the space/time we live in, our universe?.......if it is outside our space and time it would be outside of our universe.....

Space/time is the movement of our universe of energy/matter. Time exists only in terms of motion. Time equals Distance divided by Rate, t=d/r.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science...displacement-velocity-time/v/solving-for-time

What is energy and matter if space and time do not exist?

 

[edthecynic]

and isn't the space/time we live in, our universe?.......if it is outside our space and time it would be outside of our universe.....

Space/time is the movement of our universe of energy/matter. Time exists only in terms of motion. Time equals Distance divided by Rate, t=d/r.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science...displacement-velocity-time/v/solving-for-time

What is energy and matter if space and time do not exist?

Energy and matter.

 

[edthecynic]

It has not been debunked, it being challenged by the unproven invisible unknown "dark matter and dark energy." Eventually the acceleration at the extremes of the universe will be found not to be due to dark matter and dark energy, but to the super massive universal black hole. Both theories need more data to establish one or the other, neither has been debunked or proven. More scientists may be leaning toward dark matter and dark energy today, but there is no consensus and nothing is proven.

You just make shit up and claim your fantasies debunk all competing theories.

Sorry, but the "Big Bang/Crunch Cycle" theory has been debunked. Dark matter and dark energy comprise 96% of our universe. You cannot say what will "eventually" be found, you are not a fortune teller. You can claim to have FAITH in something that is not in evidence. Is that what you are claiming here? A faith-based belief in something you have no evidence for? If so, get yourself a funny looking hat and scepter and start speaking in Latin, you can form your own Religion!

You're right, there is no consensus and nothing is proven, so why are you acting like there is consensus and something is proven? Attacking people who challenge you when you make such ridiculous claims? Just man up and admit you don't have any idea what the fuck you're talking about and you've adopted a faith-based belief system that you don't intend to budge from! I could respect that!

Sorry but you are full of shit.

Scientists are starting to refer to dark energy as "dark GRAVITY" because it seems more related to gravity than energy. Further data will tell whether dark energy is the gravity of a super massive universal black hole. Nothing is proven or disproven yet. You have jumped the gun and pontificated as typical pompous gas bags do.

 

[Boss]

Space/time is the movement of our universe of energy/matter. Time exists only in terms of motion. Time equals Distance divided by Rate, t=d/r.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science...displacement-velocity-time/v/solving-for-time

What is energy and matter if space and time do not exist?

Energy and matter.

Impossible. e=mc2.
If time doesn't exist, there is no energy.
If space doesn't exist, there is no matter.

 

[edthecynic]

What is energy and matter if space and time do not exist?

Energy and matter.

Impossible. e=mc2.
If time doesn't exist, there is no energy.
If space doesn't exist, there is no matter.

There is no "t" in that equation!!! Energy/mater exist independent of time. Time has only a mathematical value, and no primary physical existence.

"Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it"
- Albert Einstein

 

[Boss]

Energy and matter.

Impossible. e=mc2.
If time doesn't exist, there is no energy.
If space doesn't exist, there is no matter.

There is no "t" in that equation!!! Energy/mater exist independent of time. Time has only a mathematical value, and no primary physical existence.

"Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it"
- Albert Einstein

LMAO... Tell us what the "C" stands for, ed?

 

[Boss]

Energy/mater exist independent of time.

No they don't, they can't, it's not possible.

Matter requires space to exist. It cannot have physical existence with no space to exist in. Energy is mass times speed of light squared. If there is no time, there is no "speed of light" because how do you measure speed without time? Where is the light going to exist if there is no space?

You are simply reduced to babbling incoherently here about something you obviously know little about.

Without time and space you have ZERO physical reality. No energy, no matter, no mass, no speed of light, no physics, no anything. Nothing is relevant, nothing exists to be relevant. PERIOD! END OF DEBATE!

 

[edthecynic]

Impossible. e=mc2.
If time doesn't exist, there is no energy.
If space doesn't exist, there is no matter.

There is no "t" in that equation!!! Energy/mater exist independent of time. Time has only a mathematical value, and no primary physical existence.

"Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it"
- Albert Einstein

LMAO... Tell us what the "C" stands for, ed?

It doesn't stand for time. In the equation d = r x t, the speed of light would be the "r" not the "t"
You have a lot to learn.

 

[edthecynic]

Energy/mater exist independent of time.

No they don't, they can't, it's not possible.

Matter requires space to exist. It cannot have physical existence with no space to exist in. Energy is mass times speed of light squared. If there is no time, there is no "speed of light" because how do you measure speed without time? Where is the light going to exist if there is no space?

You are simply reduced to babbling incoherently here about something you obviously know little about.

Without time and space you have ZERO physical reality. No energy, no matter, no mass, no speed of light, no physics, no anything. Nothing is relevant, nothing exists to be relevant. PERIOD! END OF DEBATE!

Pure bullshit!

See previous post, I'm tired of repeating myself to a pompous know-it-all who knows nothing.

 

[jon_berzerk]

There is no "t" in that equation!!! Energy/mater exist independent of time. Time has only a mathematical value, and no primary physical existence.

"Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it"
- Albert Einstein

LMAO... Tell us what the "C" stands for, ed?

It doesn't stand for time. In the equation d = r x t, the speed of light would be the "r" not the "t"
You have a lot to learn.

mass and energy are two forms of the same thing