How do the non-spiritual explain it?

[sealybobo]

Life is much more adaptable than you give it credit for. As I pointed out there are bacteria that can live deep in the bowels of the Earth without O2 and break down rock for food, as well as bacteria that can live under the crushing pressure of the deep ocean and eat the sulfur from the vents of volcanos. Who are YOU to put YOUR limitations on life???

It's not about adaptability just like it's not about conformity. You're missing the larger point. The chemical bonds and elements needed to form any carbon-based life are dependent upon this precisely fine tuned collection of variables. Atomic weights and ratios of the nucleus to electrons in atoms, constants which are essential in formation of material things like suns and planets.

Without suns and planets, I hardly see how we can debate any possibility of life as we know it. Where would it exist? How could it have formed without carbon, oxygen and light? Not to mention water. All of these things exist because the universe is finely tuned for them to exist.

Science and many ppl here have explain why you're wrong but you argue so clearly you know more than science.

 

[MaryL]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

The short answer is no Boss. The problem is science does not know what consciousness actually is yet, let alone explain higher levels of perception.

ASK ISIS. They seem to know everything.

 

[Boss]

We have nothing to support the spiritual world.

Safe bet! We'll never have anything physical to support the spiritual. It's a paradox of our linguistics, you see. For whenever we have found physical support, it ceases to be spiritual evermore. If science announced tomorrow that it had physical proof that God exists, God would no longer be spiritual.

Now.... there ARE things outside the physical (and inside if you know where to look) which support spiritual nature and/or creative force. You simply reject those possibilities because it's not what you want to believe. But I wish you could see that this makes you say really stupid things and take foolish stances on science... like the idea that if science has no evidence for something, it isn't possible. The truth is, Science is built upon not having evidence and our process of discovering it.

 

[sealybobo]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

Here let's see if I can break it down:

Astral projection experiences - hallucination of the mind
Near-death experiences - hallucination of the mind
Transcendental meditation - just smoke weed. It's easier.
ESP and telepathy - as you put it... "hooey"
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences - also "hooey"
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon - more hooey
Spells, curses and black magic - a buttload of hooey
Edgar Cayce - see "Miss Cleo"
Nostradamus - hooey
Prophecy in general - hooey

Does boss know you got 8 agrees? Love to see I'm not alone.

 

[Steven_R]

Science isn't saying it isn't possible. Science says if you want us to take it in consideration, show us proof of it.

Until the spirit world can be shown, science has no choice but to discount it.

 

[TheOldSchool]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

Here let's see if I can break it down:

Astral projection experiences - hallucination of the mind
Near-death experiences - hallucination of the mind
Transcendental meditation - just smoke weed. It's easier.
ESP and telepathy - as you put it... "hooey"
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences - also "hooey"
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon - more hooey
Spells, curses and black magic - a buttload of hooey
Edgar Cayce - see "Miss Cleo"
Nostradamus - hooey
Prophecy in general - hooey

Does boss know you got 8 agrees? Love to see I'm not alone.

I'm pretty sure boss doesn't know anything about anything

 

[sealybobo]

We have nothing to support the spiritual world.

Safe bet! We'll never have anything physical to support the spiritual. It's a paradox of our linguistics, you see. For whenever we have found physical support, it ceases to be spiritual evermore. If science announced tomorrow that it had physical proof that God exists, God would no longer be spiritual.

Now.... there ARE things outside the physical (and inside if you know where to look) which support spiritual nature and/or creative force. You simply reject those possibilities because it's not what you want to believe. But I wish you could see that this makes you say really stupid things and take foolish stances on science... like the idea that if science has no evidence for something, it isn't possible. The truth is, Science is built upon not having evidence and our process of discovering it.

I thought god can be both?

But you know what? I'm so skeptical if god came on every channel on every TV and radio and internet I'd think it was the north koreans fucking with us.

I wonder what he'd have to do to convince me. If he's god I'll not only see it I'll feel it right? But even then my mind or someone could be playing tricks on me. Or it could be an alien who's playing us because its been studying us so it know we're a gullible race.

Could it move a mountain or grow every amputees appendages back? This proof I would accept. Or spell god in the stars where the big dipper was.

 

[edthecynic]

The chemical bonds and elements needed to form any carbon-based life are dependent upon this precisely fine tuned collection of variables.

No they are not. They are dependent on one variable, the number of electrons in their outer shell.

 

[sealybobo]

We have nothing to support the spiritual world.

Safe bet! We'll never have anything physical to support the spiritual. It's a paradox of our linguistics, you see. For whenever we have found physical support, it ceases to be spiritual evermore. If science announced tomorrow that it had physical proof that God exists, God would no longer be spiritual.

Now.... there ARE things outside the physical (and inside if you know where to look) which support spiritual nature and/or creative force. You simply reject those possibilities because it's not what you want to believe. But I wish you could see that this makes you say really stupid things and take foolish stances on science... like the idea that if science has no evidence for something, it isn't possible. The truth is, Science is built upon not having evidence and our process of discovering it.

Paradox of the linguistics? You mean a hypothesis that hasn't even graduated into a theory? And I'm not talking about a scientific theory I'm just talking about a general theory where you have even one bit of evidence. The bible isn't evidence. You even know that.

So all this stuff about order and the stuff about how primitive uneducated unscientific superstitious ancient man believed and its still here so must be something to it or even that you feel it. Add all that up and its not even enough to call it a theory. Youre just hypothesising.

Us humans have only been around for a blink of an eye. We know nothing. And you're holding onto something that's holding us all back as a species. Its a lie and we don't need it anymore. Its almost no it is offensive to common sense.

I feel like a child and you're trying to convince me for one more year that Santa is real. Lol

 

[sealybobo]

The chemical bonds and elements needed to form any carbon-based life are dependent upon this precisely fine tuned collection of variables.

No they are not. They are dependent on one variable, the number of electrons in their outer shell.

And so what? Let's find out if he's right what does he think that proves? We've spent all day on point a. What does it prove anyways.

But I don't think we should continue because that's what theists do. You explain why one thing isn't true or might not be true but they assume those events are true so why let them even try to make another point if they are wrong here.

But I would like to know what he thinks a fine tune proves. Probably the clock maker intelligent design argument.

So fuck it. If boss is wrong here don't stop till he admits it.

They don't care I'd 99 of their arguments are wrong. Only one point has to be true and that proves god exists.

 

[Boss]

I'd still like to know if the universe is so finely tuned (presumably by Someone/Something) why is pretty much everything in the universe set up to wipe out life?

Do you remember the old tube-type televisions with the rabbit ear antennas? Well... there was a modern marvel... a finely tuned instrument which could pick up wave signals we can't see, feel, hear or anything... magic! Now... If you were curious as a kid like I was, you may have tinkered around with an old TV. Stick your screwdriver in the wrong place, and they'd be having your funeral that weekend. Fine tuned instrument of wonder... but it could kill you dead.

There is no correlation between "fine tuned" and "potential for catastrophe" that I am aware of. Some of the most finely tuned things we've created have had catastrophes. Fine tuned does not mean orderly and pristine. Yep, the universe can certainly kill us many different ways, but it has allowed life to evolve to the point of questioning these things, questioning existence itself. I don't think that is a fluke.

 

[sealybobo]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

Here let's see if I can break it down:

Astral projection experiences - hallucination of the mind
Near-death experiences - hallucination of the mind
Transcendental meditation - just smoke weed. It's easier.
ESP and telepathy - as you put it... "hooey"
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences - also "hooey"
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon - more hooey
Spells, curses and black magic - a buttload of hooey
Edgar Cayce - see "Miss Cleo"
Nostradamus - hooey
Prophecy in general - hooey

Does boss know you got 8 agrees? Love to see I'm not alone.

I'm pretty sure boss doesn't know anything about anything

He's a formidable foe

 

[sealybobo]

I'd still like to know if the universe is so finely tuned (presumably by Someone/Something) why is pretty much everything in the universe set up to wipe out life?

Do you remember the old tube-type televisions with the rabbit ear antennas? Well... there was a modern marvel... a finely tuned instrument which could pick up wave signals we can't see, feel, hear or anything... magic! Now... If you were curious as a kid like I was, you may have tinkered around with an old TV. Stick your screwdriver in the wrong place, and they'd be having your funeral that weekend. Fine tuned instrument of wonder... but it could kill you dead.

There is no correlation between "fine tuned" and "potential for catastrophe" that I am aware of. Some of the most finely tuned things we've created have had catastrophes. Fine tuned does not mean orderly and pristine. Yep, the universe can certainly kill us many different ways, but it has allowed life to evolve to the point of questioning these things, questioning existence itself. I don't think that is a fluke.

I knew it! The watch maker argument. If something intelligent must have designed all this something intelligent must have designed him.

Heres the truth. God is not eternal. Nothing is. Every star you see is dying. Seems like over google number of years stars are born and die. We don't know what black holes are. But from the looks of it our universe might not be the only universe and we don't know if our universe will one day die and be reborn again. We just don't have all the answers.

And does it matter if we believe?

 

[Boss]

Paradox of the linguistics? You mean a hypothesis that hasn't even graduated into a theory?

Yeah, I figured that would go right over your simple little head.

Paradox of our linguistics. When a "spiritual" thing is evidenced by "physical" science, it is no longer defined as something "spiritual" in nature. The occurrence of rain, for example. Once science provides a physical explanation, it is no longer something spiritual, it will never again be spiritual.

Therefore, it is a relatively safe bet that you can't lose when you hold to the line: There is no scientific proof for God (spiritual nature). If there ever is any, God will no longer be spiritual.

 

[sealybobo]

Actually the universe is eternal. No god necessary or require.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Take a look at photos of the surface of the moon. What do you think that cratering is all about?

the moon shielding the earth from meteorites?.....

 

[Boss]

I'd still like to know if the universe is so finely tuned (presumably by Someone/Something) why is pretty much everything in the universe set up to wipe out life?

Do you remember the old tube-type televisions with the rabbit ear antennas? Well... there was a modern marvel... a finely tuned instrument which could pick up wave signals we can't see, feel, hear or anything... magic! Now... If you were curious as a kid like I was, you may have tinkered around with an old TV. Stick your screwdriver in the wrong place, and they'd be having your funeral that weekend. Fine tuned instrument of wonder... but it could kill you dead.

There is no correlation between "fine tuned" and "potential for catastrophe" that I am aware of. Some of the most finely tuned things we've created have had catastrophes. Fine tuned does not mean orderly and pristine. Yep, the universe can certainly kill us many different ways, but it has allowed life to evolve to the point of questioning these things, questioning existence itself. I don't think that is a fluke.

I knew it! The watch maker argument. If something intelligent must have designed all this something intelligent must have designed him.

Heres the truth. God is not eternal. Nothing is. Every star you see is dying. Seems like over google number of years stars are born and die. We don't know what black holes are. But from the looks of it our universe might not be the only universe and we don't know if our universe will one day die and be reborn again. We just don't have all the answers.

And does it matter if we believe?

Well no, this isn't the watchmaker argument, although I don't have a problem with that argument either. In fact, what we have discovered regarding these 40-some-odd variables which are finely tuned, sort of reinforces Paley's analogy.

I liked my casino analogy better. Before you is the Ultimate wager... 40 roulette wheels, each one has 10 to the 60th power or more, numbers for the ball to land on. Hey, these are some really huge wheels. Now pick your 40 best numbers and let's spin the wheels! If ALL 40 wheels land on the number you picked, then your universe can be one like ours. If ANY of the wheels are off by just one number, then the universe we know of cannot exist. And quite possibly, NO universe could exist.

This has caused secular scientists to scratch their heads and try to drum up some kind of semi-rational explanation. The prevailing hypothesis is, that we are but one of MANY universes... YES.... Somewhere outside our cosmos, is a giant universe producing machine, churning out billions of universes constantly.... and we are one of them who just so happened to get the winning combination. Yep... it's OUT THERE!

 

[Boss]

Actually the universe is eternal. No god necessary or require.

Oooo... ETERNAL.... Now there is a word seculars don't often use!

I wonder if Silly Boob will enlighten us with HIS definition of eternal?

 

[Boss]

Heres the truth. God is not eternal. Nothing is.

Actually the universe is eternal.

He is SO confusing sometimes.

 

[sealybobo]

Actually the universe is eternal. No god necessary or require.

Oooo... ETERNAL.... Now there is a word seculars don't often use!

I wonder if Silly Boob will enlighten us with HIS definition of eternal?

Its all that is all that was and all that will ever be. But not just our universe. Beyond our cosmic horizon is an infinite cosmos.