How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

[Sallow]

CEO's take money from their stockholders.
Teaches make money.

Based

No, teachers make money!
So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.

What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

CEO's aren't any good to the public. The Bush cataclysm should have taught you that.

The Wonder Boys of wallstreet and the auto industry cost this country, trillions.

You liberals and your dumbfuck comparisons. Schools dont make money,they take money.
A CEO that doesnt make the company money gets canned.
A teacher with tenure who sucks doesnt.
Same shit as comparing so called corporate welfare vs. lowlife welfare.
One is a money maker the other a money taker.

So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.
Funny ..I make money off stocks. And if it wasnt for the CEO I wouldnt be.
See because this particular CEO is very good at what he does and it's why investment companies and individuals are beating down his door to get in on it.
Do you think if he sucked at being a CEO he'd be successful?

Based on his comment, I am not sure he knows that the stockholders are the ones that hire the CEOs.

Wait what?

No they are not.

CEOs are hired by a board of directors.

You realize in most companies, that the shareholders elect the board of directors....right?

The shareholders essentially hire the CEO.

Board of directors are hired by CEOs or added by other members of the board.

Some companies will send out a mailer to shareholders about CEOs and ask for an affirmation.

But generally? MOST companies hire CEOs through a board of directors.

Sigh. You realize the shareholders in most companies elect the board of directors....right?

That's not true.

 

[Sallow]

Good teachers should be leaving the field in droves. They have given up their earning potential in the private sector.... for what? To help a nation? I would never think of it.

You would never think of helping your nation?

???

People want homes, kids, and material goods. That's pretty much what we have a nation for in the first place.

If the income does not meet expectation or skills, and you take away the fact the job is "safe"?

Then there is no reason that qualified people will go into a job like this when the private sector offers more.

 

[Sallow]

The point is that most of you would not have succeeded to the extent you have is without your teachers' influences in the classrooms and in life. From primary to military to university, I was blessed with great instructors.

I've read a lot of your tripe in the last two weeks. Education failed you.

Teacher tenure does NOTHING to help students , NOTHING. There are a lot of good experienced teachers out there, guess what? They would be retained with or without tenure.

The only people teacher tenure helps is TEACHERS. Primarily teachers who would be fired if not for tenure.

That's not true.

What it boils down too is you folks are trying to eviscerate the public school system.

It's pretty deliberate and apparent.

It also has terrible ramifications for the social mobility of people born into poverty or the low middle class.

 

[Bfgrn]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

No money for education? We spend more than ever on an inflation adjusted basis.

In constant 2000-2001 dollars, we spent $3K per pupil in 1960. By 2000-2001, the per pupil amount increased to $8.8K, an increase of over 190% in CONSTANT DOLLARS.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d01/dt167.asp

Between 2000 and 2009, the CONSTANT DOLLAR spending per pupil (in 2009 dollars) increased by an other 20%, up to $10.6K.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/expenditures/tables/table_06.asp

We spend more money now for worse results. The problem is not lack of money. The problem is lack of educational standards and rigor combined with politically correct multicultralistic pablum which pushes propaganda instead of promoting knowledge.

The problem IS "educational standards and rigor". Teaching to pass tests instead of teaching in-depth knowledge that leads to SELF knowledge and the ability to problem solve.

 

[Theowl32]

CEO's take money from their stockholders.
Teaches make money.

Based

No, teachers make money!
So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.

What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

CEO's aren't any good to the public. The Bush cataclysm should have taught you that.

The Wonder Boys of wallstreet and the auto industry cost this country, trillions.

You liberals and your dumbfuck comparisons. Schools dont make money,they take money.
A CEO that doesnt make the company money gets canned.
A teacher with tenure who sucks doesnt.
Same shit as comparing so called corporate welfare vs. lowlife welfare.
One is a money maker the other a money taker.

So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.
Funny ..I make money off stocks. And if it wasnt for the CEO I wouldnt be.
See because this particular CEO is very good at what he does and it's why investment companies and individuals are beating down his door to get in on it.
Do you think if he sucked at being a CEO he'd be successful?

Based on his comment, I am not sure he knows that the stockholders are the ones that hire the CEOs.

Wait what?

No they are not.

CEOs are hired by a board of directors.

You realize in most companies, that the shareholders elect the board of directors....right?

The shareholders essentially hire the CEO.

Board of directors are hired by CEOs or added by other members of the board.

Some companies will send out a mailer to shareholders about CEOs and ask for an affirmation.

But generally? MOST companies hire CEOs through a board of directors.

Sigh. You realize the shareholders in most companies elect the board of directors....right?

That's not true.

Sallow, in most publicly traded companies the CEO and the board of directors absolutely answer to the shareholders.

The shareholders elect the board of directors in most cases.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

The point is that most of you would not have succeeded to the extent you have is without your teachers' influences in the classrooms and in life. From primary to military to university, I was blessed with great instructors.

I've read a lot of your tripe in the last two weeks. Education failed you.

Teacher tenure does NOTHING to help students , NOTHING. There are a lot of good experienced teachers out there, guess what? They would be retained with or without tenure.

The only people teacher tenure helps is TEACHERS. Primarily teachers who would be fired if not for tenure.

That's not true.

What it boils down too is you folks are trying to eviscerate the public school system.

It's pretty deliberate and apparent.

It also has terrible ramifications for the social mobility of people born into poverty or the low middle class.

Incorrect. I favor the public school system. That has nothing to to with the FACT that teacher tenure makes it very hard to get rid of bad teachers.

Look at all the teachers in NYC who can't be fired because they have tenure , but NO ONE wants them teaching children so they sit in a room all day getting paid just to show up. That's bullshit and anyone with a functioning brain would agree.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

No money for education? We spend more than ever on an inflation adjusted basis.

In constant 2000-2001 dollars, we spent $3K per pupil in 1960. By 2000-2001, the per pupil amount increased to $8.8K, an increase of over 190% in CONSTANT DOLLARS.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d01/dt167.asp

Between 2000 and 2009, the CONSTANT DOLLAR spending per pupil (in 2009 dollars) increased by an other 20%, up to $10.6K.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/expenditures/tables/table_06.asp

We spend more money now for worse results. The problem is not lack of money. The problem is lack of educational standards and rigor combined with politically correct multicultralistic pablum which pushes propaganda instead of promoting knowledge.

The problem IS "educational standards and rigor". Teaching to pass tests instead of teaching in-depth knowledge that leads to SELF knowledge and the ability to problem solve.

Incorrect.

The problem , once again, is that public schools have to accept EVERYONE and to put it bluntly, half of students in public schools are a waste of funds.

 

[Bfgrn]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

No money for education? We spend more than ever on an inflation adjusted basis.

In constant 2000-2001 dollars, we spent $3K per pupil in 1960. By 2000-2001, the per pupil amount increased to $8.8K, an increase of over 190% in CONSTANT DOLLARS.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d01/dt167.asp

Between 2000 and 2009, the CONSTANT DOLLAR spending per pupil (in 2009 dollars) increased by an other 20%, up to $10.6K.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/expenditures/tables/table_06.asp

We spend more money now for worse results. The problem is not lack of money. The problem is lack of educational standards and rigor combined with politically correct multicultralistic pablum which pushes propaganda instead of promoting knowledge.

The problem IS "educational standards and rigor". Teaching to pass tests instead of teaching in-depth knowledge that leads to SELF knowledge and the ability to problem solve.

Incorrect.

The problem , once again, is that public schools have to accept EVERYONE and to put it bluntly, half of students in public schools are a waste of funds.

WOW. Too bad one of the most successful school systems in the world is based on equality.

Finnish Education Chief: 'We Created a School System Based on Equality'

Finnish education often seems paradoxical to outside observers because it appears to break a lot of the rules we take for granted. Finnish children don’t begin school until age 7. They have more recess, shorter school hours than many U.S. children do (nearly 300 fewer hours per year in elementary school), and the lightest homework load of any industrialized nation. There are no gifted programs, almost no private schools, and no high-stakes national standardized tests.


Yet over the past decade Finland has consistently performed among the top nations on the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a standardized test given to 15-year olds in 65 nations and territories around the world. Finland’s school children didn’t always excel. Finland built its excellent, efficient, and equitable educational system in a few decades from scratch, and the concept guiding almost every educational reform has been equity. The Finnish paradox is that by focusing on the bigger picture for all, Finland has succeeded at fostering the individual potential of most every child.

I visited four Finnish schools while researching my book Parenting Without Borders. While there, I frequently heard a saying: “We can’t afford to waste a brain.” It was clear that children were regarded as one of Finland’s most precious resources. You invest significantly in providing the basic resources so that all children may prosper. How do these notions undergird your educational system?

We used to have a system which was really unequal. My parents never had a real possibility to study and have a higher education. We decided in the 1960s that we would provide a free quality education to all. Even universities are free of charge. Equal means that we support everyone and we’re not going to waste anyone’s skills. We don’t know what our kids will turn out like—we can’t know if one first-grader will become a famous composer, or another a famous scientist. Regardless of a person’s gender, background, or social welfare status, everyone should have an equal chance to make the most of their skills. It’s important because we are raising the potential of the entire human capital in Finland. Even if we don’t have oil or minerals or any other natural resources, well, we think human capital is also a valuable resource.

How well do you think Finland’s educational system, one based more squarely on equity rather than high achievement, is working?

Related Story

What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

We created a school system based on equality to make sure we can develop everyone’s potential. Now we can see how well it’s been working. Last year the OECD tested adults from 24 countries measuring the skill levels of adults aged 16-65, on a survey called the PIAAC (Programme for International Assessment of Adult Competencies), which tests skills in literacy, numeracy, and problem solving in technology-rich environments. Finland scored at or near the top on all measures. But there were differences between age groups. The test showed that all younger Finns who had had a chance to go to compulsory basic school after the reforms had extremely high knowledge; those who were older, and who were educated before the reforms, had average know-how. So, our educational system is creating people who have extremely good skills and strong know-how—a know-how which is created by investing into education. We have small class sizes and everyone is put in the same class, but we support struggling students more than others, because those individuals need more help. This helps us to be able to make sure we can use/develop everyone’s skills and potential.

more

 

[candycorn]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

I'm not sure it helps them either. Unions have one job, to protect their members. Everything else is secondary.

Unions are interested in themselves and have been for so long. People wanted to believe they were for the worker, but they are socialist/Marxist communities. Longtime president of the American Federation of Teachers union Al Shanker once said, “When schoolchildren start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of schoolchildren.”

Politicians are paid to represent the interests of the United States, but they are paid by special interest groups, so those special interest groups get represented more than the voters who elect them.

The very same mechanics are at work with any union. If management paid more money into the union, the union certainly would begin to overlook the interests of the workers.

Children don't have a union.

Meanwhile, the left wing morons vote for the politicians that get paid off by these commies in the unions. You think this commie in chief president, "bailed out" the auto industry, or were the UAV union heads paid off?

Show me documentation that they are in it for themselves.

The law of nature...first being self-preservation.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

No money for education? We spend more than ever on an inflation adjusted basis.

In constant 2000-2001 dollars, we spent $3K per pupil in 1960. By 2000-2001, the per pupil amount increased to $8.8K, an increase of over 190% in CONSTANT DOLLARS.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d01/dt167.asp

Between 2000 and 2009, the CONSTANT DOLLAR spending per pupil (in 2009 dollars) increased by an other 20%, up to $10.6K.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/expenditures/tables/table_06.asp

We spend more money now for worse results. The problem is not lack of money. The problem is lack of educational standards and rigor combined with politically correct multicultralistic pablum which pushes propaganda instead of promoting knowledge.

The problem IS "educational standards and rigor". Teaching to pass tests instead of teaching in-depth knowledge that leads to SELF knowledge and the ability to problem solve.

Incorrect.

The problem , once again, is that public schools have to accept EVERYONE and to put it bluntly, half of students in public schools are a waste of funds.

WOW. Too bad one of the most successful school systems in the world is based on equality.

Finnish Education Chief: 'We Created a School System Based on Equality'

Finnish education often seems paradoxical to outside observers because it appears to break a lot of the rules we take for granted. Finnish children don’t begin school until age 7. They have more recess, shorter school hours than many U.S. children do (nearly 300 fewer hours per year in elementary school), and the lightest homework load of any industrialized nation. There are no gifted programs, almost no private schools, and no high-stakes national standardized tests.


Yet over the past decade Finland has consistently performed among the top nations on the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a standardized test given to 15-year olds in 65 nations and territories around the world. Finland’s school children didn’t always excel. Finland built its excellent, efficient, and equitable educational system in a few decades from scratch, and the concept guiding almost every educational reform has been equity. The Finnish paradox is that by focusing on the bigger picture for all, Finland has succeeded at fostering the individual potential of most every child.

I visited four Finnish schools while researching my book Parenting Without Borders. While there, I frequently heard a saying: “We can’t afford to waste a brain.” It was clear that children were regarded as one of Finland’s most precious resources. You invest significantly in providing the basic resources so that all children may prosper. How do these notions undergird your educational system?

We used to have a system which was really unequal. My parents never had a real possibility to study and have a higher education. We decided in the 1960s that we would provide a free quality education to all. Even universities are free of charge. Equal means that we support everyone and we’re not going to waste anyone’s skills. We don’t know what our kids will turn out like—we can’t know if one first-grader will become a famous composer, or another a famous scientist. Regardless of a person’s gender, background, or social welfare status, everyone should have an equal chance to make the most of their skills. It’s important because we are raising the potential of the entire human capital in Finland. Even if we don’t have oil or minerals or any other natural resources, well, we think human capital is also a valuable resource.

How well do you think Finland’s educational system, one based more squarely on equity rather than high achievement, is working?

Related Story

What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

We created a school system based on equality to make sure we can develop everyone’s potential. Now we can see how well it’s been working. Last year the OECD tested adults from 24 countries measuring the skill levels of adults aged 16-65, on a survey called the PIAAC (Programme for International Assessment of Adult Competencies), which tests skills in literacy, numeracy, and problem solving in technology-rich environments. Finland scored at or near the top on all measures. But there were differences between age groups. The test showed that all younger Finns who had had a chance to go to compulsory basic school after the reforms had extremely high knowledge; those who were older, and who were educated before the reforms, had average know-how. So, our educational system is creating people who have extremely good skills and strong know-how—a know-how which is created by investing into education. We have small class sizes and everyone is put in the same class, but we support struggling students more than others, because those individuals need more help. This helps us to be able to make sure we can use/develop everyone’s skills and potential.
http://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...ted-a-school-system-based-on-equality/284427/
more

I'd like a study on how many Finnish children are developmentally disabled and attending public school please.

 

[percysunshine]

Currently, I am an old fart teaching the next generation how to do certain things the right way. There is no union, and it is an employment at will situation. I get paid well for doing something I enjoy.

 

[Bfgrn]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

No money for education? We spend more than ever on an inflation adjusted basis.

In constant 2000-2001 dollars, we spent $3K per pupil in 1960. By 2000-2001, the per pupil amount increased to $8.8K, an increase of over 190% in CONSTANT DOLLARS.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d01/dt167.asp

Between 2000 and 2009, the CONSTANT DOLLAR spending per pupil (in 2009 dollars) increased by an other 20%, up to $10.6K.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/expenditures/tables/table_06.asp

We spend more money now for worse results. The problem is not lack of money. The problem is lack of educational standards and rigor combined with politically correct multicultralistic pablum which pushes propaganda instead of promoting knowledge.

The problem IS "educational standards and rigor". Teaching to pass tests instead of teaching in-depth knowledge that leads to SELF knowledge and the ability to problem solve.

Incorrect.

The problem , once again, is that public schools have to accept EVERYONE and to put it bluntly, half of students in public schools are a waste of funds.

WOW. Too bad one of the most successful school systems in the world is based on equality.

Finnish Education Chief: 'We Created a School System Based on Equality'

Finnish education often seems paradoxical to outside observers because it appears to break a lot of the rules we take for granted. Finnish children don’t begin school until age 7. They have more recess, shorter school hours than many U.S. children do (nearly 300 fewer hours per year in elementary school), and the lightest homework load of any industrialized nation. There are no gifted programs, almost no private schools, and no high-stakes national standardized tests.


Yet over the past decade Finland has consistently performed among the top nations on the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a standardized test given to 15-year olds in 65 nations and territories around the world. Finland’s school children didn’t always excel. Finland built its excellent, efficient, and equitable educational system in a few decades from scratch, and the concept guiding almost every educational reform has been equity. The Finnish paradox is that by focusing on the bigger picture for all, Finland has succeeded at fostering the individual potential of most every child.

I visited four Finnish schools while researching my book Parenting Without Borders. While there, I frequently heard a saying: “We can’t afford to waste a brain.” It was clear that children were regarded as one of Finland’s most precious resources. You invest significantly in providing the basic resources so that all children may prosper. How do these notions undergird your educational system?

We used to have a system which was really unequal. My parents never had a real possibility to study and have a higher education. We decided in the 1960s that we would provide a free quality education to all. Even universities are free of charge. Equal means that we support everyone and we’re not going to waste anyone’s skills. We don’t know what our kids will turn out like—we can’t know if one first-grader will become a famous composer, or another a famous scientist. Regardless of a person’s gender, background, or social welfare status, everyone should have an equal chance to make the most of their skills. It’s important because we are raising the potential of the entire human capital in Finland. Even if we don’t have oil or minerals or any other natural resources, well, we think human capital is also a valuable resource.

How well do you think Finland’s educational system, one based more squarely on equity rather than high achievement, is working?

Related Story

What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

We created a school system based on equality to make sure we can develop everyone’s potential. Now we can see how well it’s been working. Last year the OECD tested adults from 24 countries measuring the skill levels of adults aged 16-65, on a survey called the PIAAC (Programme for International Assessment of Adult Competencies), which tests skills in literacy, numeracy, and problem solving in technology-rich environments. Finland scored at or near the top on all measures. But there were differences between age groups. The test showed that all younger Finns who had had a chance to go to compulsory basic school after the reforms had extremely high knowledge; those who were older, and who were educated before the reforms, had average know-how. So, our educational system is creating people who have extremely good skills and strong know-how—a know-how which is created by investing into education. We have small class sizes and everyone is put in the same class, but we support struggling students more than others, because those individuals need more help. This helps us to be able to make sure we can use/develop everyone’s skills and potential.
more

I'd like a study on how many Finnish children are developmentally disabled and attending public school please.

Probably at a similar percentage as any other population. They don't separate children by skill levels.

"There are no gifted programs, almost no private schools.

Finland built its excellent, efficient, and equitable educational system in a few decades from scratch, and the concept guiding almost every educational reform has been equity. The Finnish paradox is that by focusing on the bigger picture for all, Finland has succeeded at fostering the individual potential of most every child.

We have small class sizes and everyone is put in the same class, but we support struggling students more than others, because those individuals need more help. This helps us to be able to make sure we can use/develop everyone’s skills and potential."

 

[Rikurzhen]

There are parents that are never going to get it together. Ever. Some of them are mentally ill. Some of them have very low IQs and some of them are just crap. They aren't ever going to change. Some of them need a best friend for life and as a society we aren't going to be able to afford that.

I think there is a misconception that you can walk in and just educate the parents and there is frustration from all sides when it does not happen. We are going to walk in and we are going to tell you to clean your house and put up this table and to cook these foods and then we are going to smile and walk out the door. You should feel blessed that we chose you. Here have a pamphlet on the importance of reading to your kid, a good nights sleep etc. We are going to tell you how we think you should live.

I think more progress would be made if people stopped trying to fix the problem that they want to fix and paid attention to what the problems are from the perspective of the individuals with the alleged problems.

If the parent is incapable, a foster parent should take over. The incapable parent sterilized. By the way, when you include a family in one of your programs, you ARE saying the way they live is wrong. Then you take over for them with a program.

In a perfect world...

There was a doctor in California that used to pay drug addicts to be sterilized. I thought it was the best program ever.

Of the charities I donate to, this one gets the biggest chunk of my donations. Project Prevention.

You guys are incredible.

Seriously.

That's what I usually hear from my wife, but it's always nice to hear from other people. So I take it that Project prevention can count on your support too?

 

[Rikurzhen]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

No money for education? We spend more than ever on an inflation adjusted basis.

In constant 2000-2001 dollars, we spent $3K per pupil in 1960. By 2000-2001, the per pupil amount increased to $8.8K, an increase of over 190% in CONSTANT DOLLARS.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d01/dt167.asp

Between 2000 and 2009, the CONSTANT DOLLAR spending per pupil (in 2009 dollars) increased by an other 20%, up to $10.6K.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/expenditures/tables/table_06.asp

We spend more money now for worse results. The problem is not lack of money. The problem is lack of educational standards and rigor combined with politically correct multicultralistic pablum which pushes propaganda instead of promoting knowledge.

Disagree. If the reality on the ground was as you argue then we wouldn't be seeing American students performing near the top of the scale in international comparisons. If individual demographics are doing well but the overall group is not, then the problem lies within the mix. The demographic swamping is the problem and this is beyond the ability of schools and teachers to fix.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Teachers are the greatest learners.

 

[Rikurzhen]

The point is that most of you would not have succeeded to the extent you have is without your teachers' influences in the classrooms and in life. From primary to military to university, I was blessed with great instructors.

I've read a lot of your tripe in the last two weeks. Education failed you.

Teacher tenure does NOTHING to help students , NOTHING. There are a lot of good experienced teachers out there, guess what? They would be retained with or without tenure.

The only people teacher tenure helps is TEACHERS. Primarily teachers who would be fired if not for tenure.

That's not true.

What it boils down too is you folks are trying to eviscerate the public school system.

It's pretty deliberate and apparent.

It also has terrible ramifications for the social mobility of people born into poverty or the low middle class.

1.) I don't have a problem with teacher tenure so long as it means fair process. Unlike in the private sector where a boss is held accountable (losing money) for making a bad decision on firing an employee, school principals are not, so I don't need to be a stickler and demand the exact same work conditions be instituted within schools. Some of the reasons posted upthread in support of teacher tenure appear reasonable to me. Teachers face different pressures than do employees in the private sector.

This though doesn't mean huge hurdles to firing teachers, like we see with unions. Fair process, OK, but iron-clad job guarantees, no way.

2.) Damn straight I'm trying to eviscerate the public school system. Whatever happened to the motto "Diversity is our strength" and the multiple approaches to education philosophy? Public education is a monoculture - everyone is taught the same thing, taught the same way, and it's like the situation which led to the Irish Potato Famine - putting all of our eggs into one basket.

3.) Glad that the message is getting across. What though is the big deal to you? Schools still need teachers, children need teachers, so whether the teachers and schools are public or voucher, it doesn't, or shouldn't, much matter.

4.) Public/charter/voucher/private schools have little to do with social mobility. This is mostly a function of group and culture.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

No money for education? We spend more than ever on an inflation adjusted basis.

In constant 2000-2001 dollars, we spent $3K per pupil in 1960. By 2000-2001, the per pupil amount increased to $8.8K, an increase of over 190% in CONSTANT DOLLARS.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d01/dt167.asp

Between 2000 and 2009, the CONSTANT DOLLAR spending per pupil (in 2009 dollars) increased by an other 20%, up to $10.6K.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/expenditures/tables/table_06.asp

We spend more money now for worse results. The problem is not lack of money. The problem is lack of educational standards and rigor combined with politically correct multicultralistic pablum which pushes propaganda instead of promoting knowledge.

The problem IS "educational standards and rigor". Teaching to pass tests instead of teaching in-depth knowledge that leads to SELF knowledge and the ability to problem solve.

Hot air! Without testing HOW DO YOU KNOW that you've passed on knowledge which leads to SELF knowledge and the ability to problem solve.

Test taking is a godsend to boys because it helps them overcome the grading bias that teachers extend to girls. There is something fundamentally rotten in Denmark when boys who score lower than girls on their grades outperform the girls when tested on content knowledge. What exactly, besides content mastery, are girls being judged on?

 

[Rikurzhen]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

No money for education? We spend more than ever on an inflation adjusted basis.

In constant 2000-2001 dollars, we spent $3K per pupil in 1960. By 2000-2001, the per pupil amount increased to $8.8K, an increase of over 190% in CONSTANT DOLLARS.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d01/dt167.asp

Between 2000 and 2009, the CONSTANT DOLLAR spending per pupil (in 2009 dollars) increased by an other 20%, up to $10.6K.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/expenditures/tables/table_06.asp

We spend more money now for worse results. The problem is not lack of money. The problem is lack of educational standards and rigor combined with politically correct multicultralistic pablum which pushes propaganda instead of promoting knowledge.

The problem IS "educational standards and rigor". Teaching to pass tests instead of teaching in-depth knowledge that leads to SELF knowledge and the ability to problem solve.

Incorrect.

The problem , once again, is that public schools have to accept EVERYONE and to put it bluntly, half of students in public schools are a waste of funds.

WOW. Too bad one of the most successful school systems in the world is based on equality.

Finnish Education Chief: 'We Created a School System Based on Equality'

The secret to the success of the Finnish school system is the fact that the schools are filled with Finnish students, not Somalian students.

 

[TemplarKormac]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

It's pretty simple. It's experience. Teaching is not a McDonalds job or even an assembly line job. Kids are not cheeseburgers.

Well, if we keep up this tenure and seniority thing, school districts will replace teachers with robots too. McDonald's style.

 

[MeBelle]

Unions aren't Marxist.

Quite the contrary, communists get rid of Unions. And in communist nations, Unions led the way to overthrow the government, most notably in Poland.

Fascists don't like Unions, either.

Sallow, my dear....

Public unions are the OP...not Private unions.

When Public unions, such as CalPers/CalSters guaerentee a pension for life after an employee has retired, the Public picks up the tab.

This is BS.