How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

Tenure is used to separate government workers from non-government workers. A math/science/engineering major with 25 years teaching experience in corporate environments has to start at an entry level salary to teach high school math. Tenure is the tool unions use to lock outsiders out and protect the union members from having to be productive and compete with anyone outside the ranks.

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Those kinds of stories are false

National Center for Education Information

 

[Rikurzhen]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

Tenure is used to separate government workers from non-government workers. A math/science/engineering major with 25 years teaching experience in corporate environments has to start at an entry level salary to teach high school math. Tenure is the tool unions use to lock outsiders out and protect the union members from having to be productive and compete with anyone outside the ranks.

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Those kinds of stories are false

National Center for Education Information

Dude, you don't have to believe me because I couldn't find the link, that's fine, but don't tell me the story is false because I read the damn thing and there were interviews with all sorts of officials in the story.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

Tenure is used to separate government workers from non-government workers. A math/science/engineering major with 25 years teaching experience in corporate environments has to start at an entry level salary to teach high school math. Tenure is the tool unions use to lock outsiders out and protect the union members from having to be productive and compete with anyone outside the ranks.

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Those kinds of stories are false

National Center for Education Information

Dude, you don't have to believe me because I couldn't find the link, that's fine, but don't tell me the story is false because I read the damn thing and there were interviews with all sorts of officials in the story.

Ok let me clarify.


There most certainly are ways to be hired as a teacher sans teaching certificate . As the link shows.

If someone didn't want to bother or whatever , that is their failure. Sort of like the whining about not having ID to vote, well you know there are procedures to get everyone an ID, not our fault if you're too lazy or stupid to follow through.

A professor who retired from a University and wanted to teach math at the high school level would not have to fuck around with a license and all that. Read the link.

 

[regent]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

Tenure is used to separate government workers from non-government workers. A math/science/engineering major with 25 years teaching experience in corporate environments has to start at an entry level salary to teach high school math. Tenure is the tool unions use to lock outsiders out and protect the union members from having to be productive and compete with anyone outside the ranks.

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Those kinds of stories are false

National Center for Education Information

Dude, you don't have to believe me because I couldn't find the link, that's fine, but don't tell me the story is false because I read the damn thing and there were interviews with all sorts of officials in the story.

Most states have the power to issue emergency credentials, but it might be awkward for a school principal to have a math professor in the school. Professors with any reputation might not take orders as would even a tenured teacher. Bad scene. The power to issue emergency credentials assures us that there will always be a teacher in the classroom.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

Tenure is used to separate government workers from non-government workers. A math/science/engineering major with 25 years teaching experience in corporate environments has to start at an entry level salary to teach high school math. Tenure is the tool unions use to lock outsiders out and protect the union members from having to be productive and compete with anyone outside the ranks.

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Those kinds of stories are false

National Center for Education Information

Dude, you don't have to believe me because I couldn't find the link, that's fine, but don't tell me the story is false because I read the damn thing and there were interviews with all sorts of officials in the story.

Most states have the power to issue emergency credentials, but it might be awkward for a school principal to have a math professor in the school. Professors with any reputation might not take orders as would even a tenured teacher. Bad scene. The power to issue emergency credentials assures us that there will always be a teacher in the classroom.

Nevertheless, the claim that a person couldn't be hired without that certificate is FALSE

 

[saveliberty]

Can we go at this a different way?

I suggest we look at the positives of tenure versus the negatives. At that point we can assess the greater good.

 

[regent]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

Tenure is used to separate government workers from non-government workers. A math/science/engineering major with 25 years teaching experience in corporate environments has to start at an entry level salary to teach high school math. Tenure is the tool unions use to lock outsiders out and protect the union members from having to be productive and compete with anyone outside the ranks.

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Those kinds of stories are false

National Center for Education Information

Dude, you don't have to believe me because I couldn't find the link, that's fine, but don't tell me the story is false because I read the damn thing and there were interviews with all sorts of officials in the story.

Most states have the power to issue emergency credentials, but it might be awkward for a school principal to have a math professor in the school. Professors with any reputation might not take orders as would even a tenured teacher. Bad scene. The power to issue emergency credentials assures us that there will always be a teacher in the classroom.

Nevertheless, the claim that a person couldn't be hired without that certificate is FALSE

Do the fifty states and 13,500 school districts all have the same rules regarding teaching certificates?

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

Tenure is used to separate government workers from non-government workers. A math/science/engineering major with 25 years teaching experience in corporate environments has to start at an entry level salary to teach high school math. Tenure is the tool unions use to lock outsiders out and protect the union members from having to be productive and compete with anyone outside the ranks.

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Those kinds of stories are false

National Center for Education Information

Dude, you don't have to believe me because I couldn't find the link, that's fine, but don't tell me the story is false because I read the damn thing and there were interviews with all sorts of officials in the story.

Most states have the power to issue emergency credentials, but it might be awkward for a school principal to have a math professor in the school. Professors with any reputation might not take orders as would even a tenured teacher. Bad scene. The power to issue emergency credentials assures us that there will always be a teacher in the classroom.

Nevertheless, the claim that a person couldn't be hired without that certificate is FALSE

Do the fifty states and 13,500 school districts all have the same rules regarding teaching certificates?

I have no idea to be honest, but if any district has a rule against it, change the rule

 

[WorldWatcher]

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Won't say for sure, but probably not true.

I work in the HR Dept for a school system. A "retire math professor" is typically going to have a doctorate in mathematics (typically required to be a "Professor") as opposed to being faculty at a community college or adjunct faculty (employed as a temp employee on a per class basis).

As such they will have met the minimum subject mater requirements for college course work in the field of Mathematics to teach at the secondary level. In Virginia, that alone would qualify the individual for what is called a "Provisional License". A Provisional License is a fully teachers license that is good for 3-years but is non-renewable. During that three year period the individual may be required to complete a licensure plan to qualify for a full 5-year renewable license. For someone with a doctorate in Mathematics that would be 5 education courses related to functioning in the Public School Environment.

As an alternative they could also participate in what is referred to as a "Career Switcher Program" where people in Science, Technology, Informatics, and Math (STIM) or other areas can basically take a semester of education courses and use their previous careers to then qualify for a license.

****************************************

So as someone that has some working knowledge of Teacher Licensure as part of my job. Let me nit-pic what you said. You said "he didn't have state certification as a teacher."

That's true, you can't hire people to teach if they don't have a license and do not qualify for a license. The bolded part is the important part of reality. YOU CAN hire someone who currently doesn't have a license (or certificate) if the person (I repeat **IF**) the person meets the requirements to obtain a license/certificate and just needs to apply.

So where I work that "retired math professor" could very well be hired even without a current license/certificate, because there is not doubt that he would qualify for one on a provisional basis.

In many cases like this the people say "I can't get hired" when they really mean "I can get hired, but I'll have to do some extra work to get a license - so I choose not to get hired."

>>>>

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Can we go at this a different way?

I suggest we look at the positives of tenure versus the negatives. At that point we can assess the greater good.

okay

1. Keeps shitty teachers from being canned without a huge pain in the ass

anyone got anything else? No?

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Won't say for sure, but probably not true.

I work in the HR Dept for a school system. A "retire math professor" is typically going to have a doctorate in mathematics (typically required to be a "Professor") as opposed to being faculty at a community college or adjunct faculty (employed as a temp employee on a per class basis).

As such they will have met the minimum subject mater requirements for college course work in the field of Mathematics to teach at the secondary level. In Virginia, that alone would qualify the individual for what is called a "Provisional License". A Provisional License is a fully teachers license that is good for 3-years but is non-renewable. During that three year period the individual may be required to complete a licensure plan to qualify for a full 5-year renewable license. For someone with a doctorate in Mathematics that would be 5 education courses related to functioning in the Public School Environment.

As an alternative they could also participate in what is referred to as a "Career Switcher Program" where people in Science, Technology, Informatics, and Math (STIM) or other areas can basically take a semester of education courses and use their previous careers to then qualify for a license.

****************************************

So as someone that has some working knowledge of Teacher Licensure as part of my job. Let me nit-pic what you said. You said "he didn't have state certification as a teacher."

That's true, you can't hire people to teach if they don't have a license and do not qualify for a license. The bolded part is the important part of reality. YOU CAN hire someone who currently doesn't have a license (or certificate) if the person (I repeat **IF**) the person meets the requirements to obtain a license/certificate and just needs to apply.

So where I work that "retired math professor" could very well be hired even without a current license/certificate, because there is not doubt that he would qualify for one on a provisional basis.

In many cases like this the people say "I can't get hired" when they really mean "I can get hired, but I'll have to do some extra work to get a license - so I choose not to get hired."

>>>>

Explained much better than my own feeble attempt.

 

[saveliberty]

I am guessing that will pretty much be the end point B+Bear.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Do the fifty states and 13,500 school districts all have the same rules regarding teaching certificates?

Teaching Certificate/License rules are not set by local school districts. Teacher licensure is set by State legislatures.

And with the shortage of qualified Math Teachers at the secondary school level that can function in the higher course levels (Calculus etc.) - pretty much any school system would be happy to work through the process with a qualified teacher changing careers.


>>>>

 

[Rikurzhen]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

Tenure is used to separate government workers from non-government workers. A math/science/engineering major with 25 years teaching experience in corporate environments has to start at an entry level salary to teach high school math. Tenure is the tool unions use to lock outsiders out and protect the union members from having to be productive and compete with anyone outside the ranks.

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Those kinds of stories are false

National Center for Education Information

Dude, you don't have to believe me because I couldn't find the link, that's fine, but don't tell me the story is false because I read the damn thing and there were interviews with all sorts of officials in the story.

Most states have the power to issue emergency credentials, but it might be awkward for a school principal to have a math professor in the school. Professors with any reputation might not take orders as would even a tenured teacher. Bad scene. The power to issue emergency credentials assures us that there will always be a teacher in the classroom.

Nevertheless, the claim that a person couldn't be hired without that certificate is FALSE

Different story, not a math professor, but a math major, from National Pravda Radio:

When my wife tried to make a mid-career switch to teaching math in the Chicago Public Schools, I no longer needed a hypothetical example. I realized that licensing had the potential to be every bit as harmful in practice as I'd been saying it was in theory.

My wife Leah graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Dartmouth. She was a computer science major with an emphasis on math. She worked in the software industry, built a company, and then sold it. She seemed, in every respect, perfectly qualified to teach middle-school math.

She found a job at a school adjacent to a public housing project on Chicago's South Side. On about day three of that job—after she had met the students, decorated the classroom, and started teaching—the principal informed Leah that she did not have a "middle-school math endorsement," which the State of Illinois requires.

Leah had to give up the job and spend the year teaching third grade. The next year, she obtained her middle school math endorsement and quickly found a job teaching algebra.

Until Leah was informed that she did not possess an algebra endorsement. Another school year would have to go before she would be "algebra ready."

And this isn't just one case. A study in Los Angeles showed that students of certified teachers fared no better, on average, than students of uncertified teachers.​

 

[saveliberty]

Teaching is more than just subject knowledge.

 

[Rikurzhen]

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Won't say for sure, but probably not true.

I work in the HR Dept for a school system. A "retire math professor" is typically going to have a doctorate in mathematics (typically required to be a "Professor") as opposed to being faculty at a community college or adjunct faculty (employed as a temp employee on a per class basis).

As such they will have met the minimum subject mater requirements for college course work in the field of Mathematics to teach at the secondary level. In Virginia, that alone would qualify the individual for what is called a "Provisional License". A Provisional License is a fully teachers license that is good for 3-years but is non-renewable. During that three year period the individual may be required to complete a licensure plan to qualify for a full 5-year renewable license. For someone with a doctorate in Mathematics that would be 5 education courses related to functioning in the Public School Environment.

As an alternative they could also participate in what is referred to as a "Career Switcher Program" where people in Science, Technology, Informatics, and Math (STIM) or other areas can basically take a semester of education courses and use their previous careers to then qualify for a license.

****************************************

So as someone that has some working knowledge of Teacher Licensure as part of my job. Let me nit-pic what you said. You said "he didn't have state certification as a teacher."

That's true, you can't hire people to teach if they don't have a license and do not qualify for a license. The bolded part is the important part of reality. YOU CAN hire someone who currently doesn't have a license (or certificate) if the person (I repeat **IF**) the person meets the requirements to obtain a license/certificate and just needs to apply.

So where I work that "retired math professor" could very well be hired even without a current license/certificate, because there is not doubt that he would qualify for one on a provisional basis.

In many cases like this the people say "I can't get hired" when they really mean "I can get hired, but I'll have to do some extra work to get a license - so I choose not to get hired."

>>>>

What you've written is triggering some more memories. He was teaching for a year and then was required to get a teaching credential and he pointed out that he had been teaching for decades and won awards for teaching excellence. Didn't matter. He needed to be state certified to teach math to public school students. He chose not to jump through the hoops.

No one saw him as a career switcher, he WAS a teacher, just not a teacher of high school kids.

 

[saveliberty]

Exceptions to a rule do not prove the rule is valueless. Is it not preferable to have a teacher who has met a standard? Are we not asking students meet standards?

 

[Rikurzhen]

Exceptions to a rule do not prove the rule is valueless. Is it not preferable to have a teacher who has met a standard? Are we not asking students meet standards?

A standard shouldn't exist just to protect the welfare of those who've passed the standard. This criticism isn't restricted to the field of public education, we see valueless licensing in many fields.

If there is no student outcome difference between a credentialed teacher and a non-credentialed teacher, then what value is the coursework for credentialing producing?

 

[saveliberty]

Licensing involves course work in teaching methods. Licensing does not protect the teacher, tenure does.

 

[WorldWatcher]

What you've written is triggering some more memories. He was teaching for a year and then was required to get a teaching credential and he pointed out that he had been teaching for decades and won awards for teaching excellence. Didn't matter. He needed to be state certified to teach math to public school students. He chose not to jump through the hoops.

No one saw him as a career switcher, he WAS a teacher, just not a teacher of high school kids.

Thank you for acknowledging that he was hireable and that it was his choice to not pursue the proper licensure requirements.



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