How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

[saveliberty]

You don't need an evaluation, because laziness and self-centeredness are not sicknesses. Remove the enabling programs and replace them with education and goals that must be met in order to get help and these people will change pretty fast.

 

[WorldWatcher]

If tenure no longer plays a role, what is to stop a school district from just laying off all the highest paid teachers, regardless of their effectiveness?

The law.

Teacher pay is based on experience, the highest paid have the most experience. In other words those that are on the highest pay step for their scale will be those with the most years of service. For a continuous employees teacher that would be someone in the profession for 20-30 years. (In my school system the top step is reached at 33+ years of experience.) For someone with a break in service, the age would be even higher (for example a woman that took two years off to raise a newborn before returning to work.)

Now if the average student graduates with a Bachelors at 22 (and a lot of programs are going to a Masters in a composite Masters program) - then graduation occurs at 22 - 23 years old. To reach the highest steps then they are age 42(43) to 52(53) at that point in their career.

A school system that attempts to eliminate older workers (those over 40) based on their age is in violation of Federal law - Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA).

Age Discrimination

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That doesn't mean that an older worker can't be fired/terminated. They surely can. The can for cause. They can be terminated (retired) for medical reasons if they are unable to perform they duties. If their job is eliminated and they cannot be transferred to a different position for which they are qualified. For example lets say a school district has a Latin program as part of their Foreign Language department and there is a senior teacher that is only endorsed to teach Latin. If the school division eliminates the whole Latin program, then there is no like job that individual is qualified for and they can be terminated because the decision basis isn't age/experience - it's qualifications.

The legal way to do it is what my school division did a couple of years ago. For about 6 or 7 years now we've been in a sever budget crisis. No pay raises, a pay cut one year, and a different year when take home pay decreased because of changes in the retirement system. The budge crisis resulted from (a) shrinking student population, (b) depressed housing market impacting local revenues, and (c) decreased matching funds from the state. We attempted to deal with reduced staffing needs through attrition - which worked pretty well in most areas - but not all because since the economy was poor people that had jobs would tend to hold on to them longer.

So part of the solution was to offer an early retirement package to the most experienced teachers (those on the highest grade/steps). I don't remember all the details as it wasn't my work area, but it included an upfront cash payment, ability to remain on our medical, the school system would continue to make contributions to VRS (for a limited time), and (since they already qualified) would draw their VRS retirement. Since the offerred early retirement package was voluntary, it didn't violate Age Discrimination law.

IIRC - getting a senior teacher to voluntarily retire and (where needed) their replacement with a junior teacher typically resulted in a 2-year break even point.


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[Unkotare]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

Tenure is used to separate government workers from non-government workers. A math/science/engineering major with 25 years teaching experience in corporate environments has to start at an entry level salary to teach high school math. Tenure is the tool unions use to lock outsiders out and protect the union members from having to be productive and compete with anyone outside the ranks.

I recall reading a story, sorry no link, about a math professor who retired early and then wanted to teach at the high school in the town he retired to and they couldn't hire him because he didn't have state certification as a teacher.

Those kinds of stories are false

National Center for Education Information

Why do you say that? Most, if not all states require state certification to be hired as a teacher in the public schools.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Why do you say that? Most, if not all states require state certification to be hired as a teacher in the public schools.

Just to nit-pic, not necessarily true. Your statement implies the certification must be in hand at the time of hiring. That is not true.

A more correct way to have said it would be: "Most, if not all states require and individual to either have a state certification or be eligible to obtain provisional/temporary certification to be hired as a teacher in the public schools."


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[Unkotare]

Why do you say that? Most, if not all states require state certification to be hired as a teacher in the public schools.

Just to nit-pic, not necessarily true. Your statement implies the certification must be in hand at the time of hiring. >

I didn't imply anything. Feel free to read my words just as they are written.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Why do you say that? Most, if not all states require state certification to be hired as a teacher in the public schools.

Just to nit-pic, not necessarily true. Your statement implies the certification must be in hand at the time of hiring. >

I didn't imply anything. Feel free to read my words just as they are written.

I did, you said "Most, if not all states require state certification to be hired as a teacher in the public schools."

That is false, most, if not all states require that a person either currently hold or have the potential to hold a license.

Every year we hire teachers that DON'T have a teaching certificate, the important point in their hiring is that are Staffing Manager and the Licensure Specialists have reviewed their application, transcripts, and (if applicable) their test scores (PRAXIS, VCLA, etc.) and determined that we could assist them in applying for either a full certificate or that they qualify for provisional certification.


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[Unkotare]

Every year we hire teachers that DON'T have a teaching certificate, the important point in their hiring is that are Staffing Manager and the Licensure Specialists have reviewed their application, transcripts, and (if applicable) their test scores (PRAXIS, VCLA, etc.) and determined that we could assist them in applying for either a full certificate or that they qualify for provisional certification.


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That's your state. Got a chart showing that to be the case in "most" states? Better yet, stop wasting your time parsing words and looking for "implications" and just read posts the way they are written. Not sure what you think you're getting out of this, but if you have now hitched your ego to playing the expert on state certification, go ahead and create a document comparing hiring requirements in all 50 states. Knock yourself out.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Teacher Certification Map Become a Teacher

Every year we hire teachers that DON'T have a teaching certificate, the important point in their hiring is that are Staffing Manager and the Licensure Specialists have reviewed their application, transcripts, and (if applicable) their test scores (PRAXIS, VCLA, etc.) and determined that we could assist them in applying for either a full certificate or that they qualify for provisional certification.


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That's your state. Got a chart showing that to be the case in "most" states? Better yet, stop wasting your time parsing words and looking for "implications" and just

read posts the way they are written. Not sure what you think you're getting out of this, but if you have now hitched your ego to playing the expert on state certification, go ahead and create a document comparing hiring requirements in all 50 states. Knock yourself out.

Teacher Certification Map Become a Teacher

EVERY state would allow a school to hire a person who was otherwise qualified to teach and allow them to get their certificate.

The mythical college professor who decided to teach high school would be hired by ANY school in the US with the provision that he get his teaching certificate for that state.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Every year we hire teachers that DON'T have a teaching certificate, the important point in their hiring is that are Staffing Manager and the Licensure Specialists have reviewed their application, transcripts, and (if applicable) their test scores (PRAXIS, VCLA, etc.) and determined that we could assist them in applying for either a full certificate or that they qualify for provisional certification.


>>>>

That's your state. Got a chart showing that to be the case in "most" states? Better yet, stop wasting your time parsing words and looking for "implications" and just read posts the way they are written. Not sure what you think you're getting out of this, but if you have now hitched your ego to playing the expert on state certification, go ahead and create a document comparing hiring requirements in all 50 states. Knock yourself out.

Did you show a chart that shows that individuals must have a certificate in hand to be eligible to be hired?

Why do you ask me for evidence that you should have provided to backup the claim that you made?



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[Unkotare]

The mythical college professor who decided to teach high school would be hired by ANY school in the US with the provision that he get his teaching certificate for that state.

Nope. Maybe your information is outdated, as requirements have changed in several states in recent years.

 

[Unkotare]

Every year we hire teachers that DON'T have a teaching certificate, the important point in their hiring is that are Staffing Manager and the Licensure Specialists have reviewed their application, transcripts, and (if applicable) their test scores (PRAXIS, VCLA, etc.) and determined that we could assist them in applying for either a full certificate or that they qualify for provisional certification.


>>>>

That's your state. Got a chart showing that to be the case in "most" states? Better yet, stop wasting your time parsing words and looking for "implications" and just read posts the way they are written. Not sure what you think you're getting out of this, but if you have now hitched your ego to playing the expert on state certification, go ahead and create a document comparing hiring requirements in all 50 states. Knock yourself out.

Did you show a chart that shows that individuals must have a certificate in hand to be eligible to be hired?

Why do you ask me for evidence that you should have provided to backup the claim that you made?



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Are you really trying to play this game? Have some self respect.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Are you really trying to play this game? Have some self respect.

I work in Human Resources for a School Division.


You?


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[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

The mythical college professor who decided to teach high school would be hired by ANY school in the US with the provision that he get his teaching certificate for that state.

Nope. Maybe your information is outdated, as requirements have changed in several states in recent years.

My link is not outdated, you simply didn't like what it said.

Post where ANY state says that a person MUST have that certificate before they can be hired. You won't find one.

The fact is MANY schools hire teachers who are about to graduate college, but haven't yet, and don't have either their degrees or their certificates when hired. But as long as they do within a certain time frame, that is fine.

Again no state is going to disallow a college professor from teaching high school math.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

The mythical college professor who decided to teach high school would be hired by ANY school in the US with the provision that he get his teaching certificate for that state.

Nope. Maybe your information is outdated, as requirements have changed in several states in recent years.

Then post these new requirements.

 

[Unkotare]

The mythical college professor who decided to teach high school would be hired by ANY school in the US with the provision that he get his teaching certificate for that state.

Nope. Maybe your information is outdated, as requirements have changed in several states in recent years.

My link is not outdated, you simply didn't like what it said...

Your information is not up to date.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

The mythical college professor who decided to teach high school would be hired by ANY school in the US with the provision that he get his teaching certificate for that state.

Nope. Maybe your information is outdated, as requirements have changed in several states in recent years.

My link is not outdated, you simply didn't like what it said...

Your information is not up to date.

You don't know how to debate very well do you.

I post a link - you claim it is wrong, your job becomes PROVING it is wrong with a link of your own.

A janitor's word isn't good enough. Prove my information is wrong.

 

[Unkotare]

The mythical college professor who decided to teach high school would be hired by ANY school in the US with the provision that he get his teaching certificate for that state.

Nope. Maybe your information is outdated, as requirements have changed in several states in recent years.

My link is not outdated, you simply didn't like what it said...

Your information is not up to date.

You don't know how to debate very well do you.

I'm not debating the point, I'm informing. I happen to know two people in two different states going through just such a process right now. The limited Google skills of some faceless dots on the internet who claim to work for a school department do not carry more weight with me than real live people. Whatshisass has an ego problem, and you are just playing hanger-on.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

The mythical college professor who decided to teach high school would be hired by ANY school in the US with the provision that he get his teaching certificate for that state.

Nope. Maybe your information is outdated, as requirements have changed in several states in recent years.

My link is not outdated, you simply didn't like what it said...

Your information is not up to date.

You don't know how to debate very well do you.

I'm not debating the point, I'm informing. I happen to know two people in two different states going through just such a process right now. The limited Google skills of some faceless dots on the internet who claim to work for a school department do not carry more weight with me than real live people. Whatshisass has an ego problem, and you are just playing hanger-on.

So your anecdotal nonsense > my factual links?


Get that shit out of here.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I'm not debating the point, I'm informing. I happen to know two people in two different states going through just such a process right now. The limited Google skills of some faceless dots on the internet who claim to work for a school department do not carry more weight with me than real live people. Whatshisass has an ego problem, and you are just playing hanger-on.

So please provide the two states that you are referencing and I'll go lookup the Alternative Teacher Certification process for those two states (if they have them).


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[Disir]

You don't need an evaluation, because laziness and self-centeredness are not sicknesses. Remove the enabling programs and replace them with education and goals that must be met in order to get help and these people will change pretty fast.

You act like everyone receiving state aid is as capable as you and I. Sex ed is not enabling.

When you start dissecting affordable housing then you start realizing that this is an entirely different problem all by itself. You don't get to ship jobs overseas, bust unions, drive down wages and then pretend then you should just work harder. That doesn't fly.