How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

[Disir]

...and what direction has the state and federal governments taken? Undermine parents with sex education, nutrition programs and other entitlements which distance the parent from responsible behaviors.

Wait. Are you saying that the programs themselves prevent the parent from being responsible?

Yes. Class time for Mr. Tooth (2 hours) on how to brush your teeth! Healthy Bear on eating right; Safe Touch, Bad Touch, sex; Fireman Freddie; Police Officer - crossing the street; Puppets - The Arts; Dance - The Ballet (Arts); Opera - Arts ... This takes time away from Reading, Math and Language Arts... But don't forget the Cookie Drives and Christmas shows....

We take the responsibilities from the parents..can't they teach their children to brush their teeth, to cross the street safely, not to allow anyone to touch their private parts? Come on parents...step up to the plate!

Ya, so you just sit there you kindergartner you and face the front and read Beowulf.

Come on.

Kids do more in school than sit and listen. They are actually learning to read, do math and learning to write, that is if they are not sitting there listening to Mr. Tooth for a couple of hours. Maybe Mom can teach Johnny to brush his teeth when she is free. We are kind of busy at school.

Ya, I know. Teaching to the test is awesome. Never let anything stand in the way of that.

You are really a piece of work, aren't you? Yes, reading and math are on the test, so I am teaching TO THE TEST! It happens to be part of the curriculum. So, you might say they are testing if I am teaching what is on the curriculum. But that doesn't roll with your agenda...does it?

I would love to see you try to fill the shoes of a good teacher and flounder in what would be the most difficult job you would have ever had. That is if you would try to be good at it. Would you try to be good at it? I wonder.

Yes, I am. You have anything besides insults?

Are you a teacher? In the earlier post, SaveLiberty approached you as you would want to help educate the parents rather than do for them. Is that right? Or are you still a proponent of all of the programs of DOING FOR THE PARENTS?

I used to do Workshops for parents in the inner city. It was how to help the children. I would be in favor of educating the parents but not doing FOR THEM. I do buy clothes for the children, mainly socks, shoes and belts and always school supplies. I always had a "store" in the classroom for the students to buy toys with "merits" earned at school for good work, manners trying hard.

I am not a teacher. I got into into it and watched the kids I went in to work with get bounced. I said not every kid is going to be perfect so altered course accordingly. Your workshops are admirable and the store is as well.

I am a proponent of health courses that have sex ed and nutrition. I am a proponent of SNAP, affordable housing and health care. I think that unless you have a pysch eval in your hands then you have no idea what the limitations of the parent are.

My stance is that the approach of many programs is that the problem is identified by someone else and then resolving the issue is by someone else. It often does not solve the problem.

 

[Disir]

There are parents that are never going to get it together. Ever. Some of them are mentally ill. Some of them have very low IQs and some of them are just crap. They aren't ever going to change. Some of them need a best friend for life and as a society we aren't going to be able to afford that.

I think there is a misconception that you can walk in and just educate the parents and there is frustration from all sides when it does not happen. We are going to walk in and we are going to tell you to clean your house and put up this table and to cook these foods and then we are going to smile and walk out the door. You should feel blessed that we chose you. Here have a pamphlet on the importance of reading to your kid, a good nights sleep etc. We are going to tell you how we think you should live.

I think more progress would be made if people stopped trying to fix the problem that they want to fix and paid attention to what the problems are from the perspective of the individuals with the alleged problems.

If the parent is incapable, a foster parent should take over. The incapable parent sterilized. By the way, when you include a family in one of your programs, you ARE saying the way they live is wrong. Then you take over for them with a program.

In a perfect world...

There was a doctor in California that used to pay drug addicts to be sterilized. I thought it was the best program ever.

No, you aren't saying that the way they live is wrong. Not when shelter is provided. Not when health care is provided. Not when food is provided. Not when health courses with sex ed is provided.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Food, housing, electricity, water and clothing. In theory, parents would be able to teach their children Kleenex but some of those kids have never seen it.

There is what should be and then there is what it is.

So, spending my time saying.......you should doesn't quite address problems such as homelessness. I could play smack a parent all day long. Doesn't accomplish anything. There are programs that piss me off and that is no lie.

Thank you for stating your position in a concise and thoughtful way Disir. We seem to agree on the basic responsibilities of parents. I understand what you mean with, "There is what should be and then there is what it is." My approach to that is government shouldn't just step in and provide. It should educate and support the parent into fulfilling their role by themselves over time. This affords an opportunity to end the problem.

There are parents that are never going to get it together. Ever. Some of them are mentally ill. Some of them have very low IQs and some of them are just crap. They aren't ever going to change. Some of them need a best friend for life and as a society we aren't going to be able to afford that.

I think there is a misconception that you can walk in and just educate the parents and there is frustration from all sides when it does not happen. We are going to walk in and we are going to tell you to clean your house and put up this table and to cook these foods and then we are going to smile and walk out the door. You should feel blessed that we chose you. Here have a pamphlet on the importance of reading to your kid, a good nights sleep etc. We are going to tell you how we think you should live.

I think more progress would be made if people stopped trying to fix the problem that they want to fix and paid attention to what the problems are from the perspective of the individuals with the alleged problems.

I gave you an agree checkmark because some of what you write is a good take on the reality of what we face. My broad criticism is that liberals don't want to take any steps to stop this parental problem from worsening. This puts us into the realm of population management. I don't agree with the current approach of hands-off on parental management and then stick taxpayers with the costs of fixing the problems caused by the bad parents. If we have to socialize the cost of child care, then we need to take strong measures to bring down the percent of kids who need this type of care.

 

[Rikurzhen]

There are parents that are never going to get it together. Ever. Some of them are mentally ill. Some of them have very low IQs and some of them are just crap. They aren't ever going to change. Some of them need a best friend for life and as a society we aren't going to be able to afford that.

I think there is a misconception that you can walk in and just educate the parents and there is frustration from all sides when it does not happen. We are going to walk in and we are going to tell you to clean your house and put up this table and to cook these foods and then we are going to smile and walk out the door. You should feel blessed that we chose you. Here have a pamphlet on the importance of reading to your kid, a good nights sleep etc. We are going to tell you how we think you should live.

I think more progress would be made if people stopped trying to fix the problem that they want to fix and paid attention to what the problems are from the perspective of the individuals with the alleged problems.

If the parent is incapable, a foster parent should take over. The incapable parent sterilized. By the way, when you include a family in one of your programs, you ARE saying the way they live is wrong. Then you take over for them with a program.

In a perfect world...

There was a doctor in California that used to pay drug addicts to be sterilized. I thought it was the best program ever.

Of the charities I donate to, this one gets the biggest chunk of my donations. Project Prevention.

 

[Disir]

There are parents that are never going to get it together. Ever. Some of them are mentally ill. Some of them have very low IQs and some of them are just crap. They aren't ever going to change. Some of them need a best friend for life and as a society we aren't going to be able to afford that.

I think there is a misconception that you can walk in and just educate the parents and there is frustration from all sides when it does not happen. We are going to walk in and we are going to tell you to clean your house and put up this table and to cook these foods and then we are going to smile and walk out the door. You should feel blessed that we chose you. Here have a pamphlet on the importance of reading to your kid, a good nights sleep etc. We are going to tell you how we think you should live.

I think more progress would be made if people stopped trying to fix the problem that they want to fix and paid attention to what the problems are from the perspective of the individuals with the alleged problems.

If the parent is incapable, a foster parent should take over. The incapable parent sterilized. By the way, when you include a family in one of your programs, you ARE saying the way they live is wrong. Then you take over for them with a program.

In a perfect world...

There was a doctor in California that used to pay drug addicts to be sterilized. I thought it was the best program ever.

Of the charities I donate to, this one gets the biggest chunk of my donations. Project Prevention.

I think that is it!

 

[Disir]

Food, housing, electricity, water and clothing. In theory, parents would be able to teach their children Kleenex but some of those kids have never seen it.

There is what should be and then there is what it is.

So, spending my time saying.......you should doesn't quite address problems such as homelessness. I could play smack a parent all day long. Doesn't accomplish anything. There are programs that piss me off and that is no lie.

Thank you for stating your position in a concise and thoughtful way Disir. We seem to agree on the basic responsibilities of parents. I understand what you mean with, "There is what should be and then there is what it is." My approach to that is government shouldn't just step in and provide. It should educate and support the parent into fulfilling their role by themselves over time. This affords an opportunity to end the problem.

There are parents that are never going to get it together. Ever. Some of them are mentally ill. Some of them have very low IQs and some of them are just crap. They aren't ever going to change. Some of them need a best friend for life and as a society we aren't going to be able to afford that.

I think there is a misconception that you can walk in and just educate the parents and there is frustration from all sides when it does not happen. We are going to walk in and we are going to tell you to clean your house and put up this table and to cook these foods and then we are going to smile and walk out the door. You should feel blessed that we chose you. Here have a pamphlet on the importance of reading to your kid, a good nights sleep etc. We are going to tell you how we think you should live.

I think more progress would be made if people stopped trying to fix the problem that they want to fix and paid attention to what the problems are from the perspective of the individuals with the alleged problems.

I gave you an agree checkmark because some of what you write is a good take on the reality of what we face. My broad criticism is that liberals don't want to take any steps to stop this parental problem from worsening. This puts us into the realm of population management. I don't agree with the current approach of hands-off on parental management and then stick taxpayers with the costs of fixing the problems caused by the bad parents. If we have to socialize the cost of child care, then we need to take strong measures to bring down the percent of kids who need this type of care.

Food, housing, electricity, water and clothing. In theory, parents would be able to teach their children Kleenex but some of those kids have never seen it.

There is what should be and then there is what it is.

So, spending my time saying.......you should doesn't quite address problems such as homelessness. I could play smack a parent all day long. Doesn't accomplish anything. There are programs that piss me off and that is no lie.

Thank you for stating your position in a concise and thoughtful way Disir. We seem to agree on the basic responsibilities of parents. I understand what you mean with, "There is what should be and then there is what it is." My approach to that is government shouldn't just step in and provide. It should educate and support the parent into fulfilling their role by themselves over time. This affords an opportunity to end the problem.

There are parents that are never going to get it together. Ever. Some of them are mentally ill. Some of them have very low IQs and some of them are just crap. They aren't ever going to change. Some of them need a best friend for life and as a society we aren't going to be able to afford that.

I think there is a misconception that you can walk in and just educate the parents and there is frustration from all sides when it does not happen. We are going to walk in and we are going to tell you to clean your house and put up this table and to cook these foods and then we are going to smile and walk out the door. You should feel blessed that we chose you. Here have a pamphlet on the importance of reading to your kid, a good nights sleep etc. We are going to tell you how we think you should live.

I think more progress would be made if people stopped trying to fix the problem that they want to fix and paid attention to what the problems are from the perspective of the individuals with the alleged problems.

I gave you an agree checkmark because some of what you write is a good take on the reality of what we face. My broad criticism is that liberals don't want to take any steps to stop this parental problem from worsening. This puts us into the realm of population management. I don't agree with the current approach of hands-off on parental management and then stick taxpayers with the costs of fixing the problems caused by the bad parents. If we have to socialize the cost of child care, then we need to take strong measures to bring down the percent of kids who need this type of care.

I agree with you to an extent. There are elitist liberals that firmly believe that they can teach 'em and then when the behavior doesn't end because they are working off this script then they get pissy and devise another script. But, that isn't always the case. You can see that from the right too.
If you say to me that you need help with getting to appointments here and here because you don't drive and I bring you meals on wheels then it isn't really helping you. If you are physically disabled and bed ridden and you ask for help to clean and run errands and help with the kids that you adopted and I come in to pray with you and give you a pep talk then it isn't really helpful.

It is literally walking a mile in someone's shoes.

 

[Disir]

Food, housing, electricity, water and clothing. In theory, parents would be able to teach their children Kleenex but some of those kids have never seen it.

There is what should be and then there is what it is.

So, spending my time saying.......you should doesn't quite address problems such as homelessness. I could play smack a parent all day long. Doesn't accomplish anything. There are programs that piss me off and that is no lie.

Thank you for stating your position in a concise and thoughtful way Disir. We seem to agree on the basic responsibilities of parents. I understand what you mean with, "There is what should be and then there is what it is." My approach to that is government shouldn't just step in and provide. It should educate and support the parent into fulfilling their role by themselves over time. This affords an opportunity to end the problem.

There are parents that are never going to get it together. Ever. Some of them are mentally ill. Some of them have very low IQs and some of them are just crap. They aren't ever going to change. Some of them need a best friend for life and as a society we aren't going to be able to afford that.

I think there is a misconception that you can walk in and just educate the parents and there is frustration from all sides when it does not happen. We are going to walk in and we are going to tell you to clean your house and put up this table and to cook these foods and then we are going to smile and walk out the door. You should feel blessed that we chose you. Here have a pamphlet on the importance of reading to your kid, a good nights sleep etc. We are going to tell you how we think you should live.

I think more progress would be made if people stopped trying to fix the problem that they want to fix and paid attention to what the problems are from the perspective of the individuals with the alleged problems.

Okay Disir, I agree with much you say, but you are talking about a small percentage that cannot learn to do for themselves. And for them, we are going to go that extra mile. But we are going that extra mile for all of the parents in the inner city. Do you see what I am saying?

So, how do we meet the needs of all of our parents without enabling the basic "users"? We have those parents who are on welfare, getting food stamps, getting free lunch and coming to school with those expensive tennis shoes and $1 for ice cream bars to go with the free lunch. Those are the users.

Yet, at the same time, the come in for conferences and they are concerned about the children and don't know how to help them at home. We work out plans for incentives for motivating and often it works, but it does take time. You have to 'stroke' the parents and let them know you believe in them. Instead of paying these people to come in to "teach" the kids, I want to teach the parents. Hold meetings with raffles to get them to come and teach them parenting skills.

First you have to figure out who the users are and then you have to make a choice if your going to damn the kid because of the parent.

 

[Jackson]

Food, housing, electricity, water and clothing. In theory, parents would be able to teach their children Kleenex but some of those kids have never seen it.

There is what should be and then there is what it is.

So, spending my time saying.......you should doesn't quite address problems such as homelessness. I could play smack a parent all day long. Doesn't accomplish anything. There are programs that piss me off and that is no lie.

Thank you for stating your position in a concise and thoughtful way Disir. We seem to agree on the basic responsibilities of parents. I understand what you mean with, "There is what should be and then there is what it is." My approach to that is government shouldn't just step in and provide. It should educate and support the parent into fulfilling their role by themselves over time. This affords an opportunity to end the problem.

There are parents that are never going to get it together. Ever. Some of them are mentally ill. Some of them have very low IQs and some of them are just crap. They aren't ever going to change. Some of them need a best friend for life and as a society we aren't going to be able to afford that.

I think there is a misconception that you can walk in and just educate the parents and there is frustration from all sides when it does not happen. We are going to walk in and we are going to tell you to clean your house and put up this table and to cook these foods and then we are going to smile and walk out the door. You should feel blessed that we chose you. Here have a pamphlet on the importance of reading to your kid, a good nights sleep etc. We are going to tell you how we think you should live.

I think more progress would be made if people stopped trying to fix the problem that they want to fix and paid attention to what the problems are from the perspective of the individuals with the alleged problems.

Okay Disir, I agree with much you say, but you are talking about a small percentage that cannot learn to do for themselves. And for them, we are going to go that extra mile. But we are going that extra mile for all of the parents in the inner city. Do you see what I am saying?

So, how do we meet the needs of all of our parents without enabling the basic "users"? We have those parents who are on welfare, getting food stamps, getting free lunch and coming to school with those expensive tennis shoes and $1 for ice cream bars to go with the free lunch. Those are the users.

Yet, at the same time, the come in for conferences and they are concerned about the children and don't know how to help them at home. We work out plans for incentives for motivating and often it works, but it does take time. You have to 'stroke' the parents and let them know you believe in them. Instead of paying these people to come in to "teach" the kids, I want to teach the parents. Hold meetings with raffles to get them to come and teach them parenting skills.

First you have to figure out who the users are and then you have to make a choice if your going to damn the kid because of the parent.

I never damn the child. I love all my children. I help all the parents I can.

 

[Sallow]

I'm sorry but WHAT?

I pay Federal Tax, State Tax, City Tax, Sales Tax, Property Tax and a whole lotta other taxes. What happened during the Bush Cataclysm did have a direct effect on me, as many of those taxes I paid weren't used to improve roads, improve transportation, hire more sanitation or public service employees in general. And being that I work in the financial industry? As a direct result of those actions taken by those CEOs..I lost my job.

I spent over a year trying to land another one and had to mine my 401k to survive.

Which by the way? I got heavily taxed for..

Don't tell me that those schmucks didn't directly affect me.

They did.

I am sorry I attacked you about your job. I got laid off in Feb from a place I was at for close to 10 yrs. I found a job a month later, but I remember the fear an anxiety! I am glad you found another job!

Glad you got a job so quickly.

Good luck

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

First you have to figure out who the users are and then you have to make a choice if your going to damn the kid because of the parent.

For the love of God learn how to cut quotes.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

The idea is that it protects teachers from meat heads in administration and the community.

The issue is how to weed out incompetent teachers without violating that protection from meat heads.

Meatheads are not autonomous.

 

[Bfgrn]

It's pretty simple. It's experience. Teaching is not a McDonalds job or even an assembly line job. Kids are not cheeseburgers.

I'm far more interested in quality and accountability.

And much of their "experience" is a result of being protected by tenure.

.

FALSE

Education World The Myth of Tenure and the Terrible Teacher

 

[Disir]

It's pretty simple. It's experience. Teaching is not a McDonalds job or even an assembly line job. Kids are not cheeseburgers.

I'm far more interested in quality and accountability.

And much of their "experience" is a result of being protected by tenure.

.

FALSE

Education World The Myth of Tenure and the Terrible Teacher

That's an opinion piece. :/

 

[Toro]

How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

It doesn't. It helps teachers.

The same way Wall Street bonuses helped market stability after the Bush Financial Crash.

Remember the argument? People were rightly upset that the same people who crashed the economy were still getting their huge bonuses, but the argument was if we don't pay them these bonuses they will leave for European, London, Asian exchanges. We would lose good people! Good people who knew what needed to be done to right the ship!

Remember that? Now just transplant that to teachers.

Oh, so by extent, the tenure and seniority argument is wrong, then.

 

[Care4all]

On tenure and why it's controversial

Tenure is so controversial because it provides greater job security than almost any other American who is not a teacher has. ... People say, "I don't have this sort of protection. If my boss wants to fire me, he can just come in on Monday and just fire me. Why should teachers deserve that?" I do think there are some good arguments why, but often the conversation gets boiled down to something very simplistic.

Tenure dates back to 1909, and at the time it was something that school reformers and teachers unions actually agreed about. They looked over at the Prussian, the German education system, which was very admired in the United States at the time. And they noticed that teachers there had more job security — and that the low pay that teachers earned was offset by the promise of due process, the promise that you could hold onto your job for a long time and that you would get a pension at the end when you retired.

School reformers and unions wanted to bring this system to the United States, especially because at the time it was not unusual for teachers to be laid off or fired for very bad reasons, such as they were pregnant, they were black, they didn't get along with the mayor — these were all very typical occurrences back then.

A Lesson In How Teachers Became Resented And Idealized NPR

 

[Bfgrn]

It's pretty simple. It's experience. Teaching is not a McDonalds job or even an assembly line job. Kids are not cheeseburgers.

I'm far more interested in quality and accountability.

And much of their "experience" is a result of being protected by tenure.

.

FALSE

Education World The Myth of Tenure and the Terrible Teacher

That's an opinion piece. :/

Yes, Mac is expressing an opinion.

Anyone with even a small brain understands what experience is. It is the result of acquiring skill and knowledge. In EVERY other field and position we consider experience to be a positive attribute. EXCEPT for teachers.



"Teachers are givers in a world dominated by takers, and they're also sharers. This collaborative instinct makes our profession unlike any other."
Barbara Keshishian

In everybody's life if you picked five people who had the biggest influence on you, outside of your family, almost everyone would have a teacher or a coach on that list.
Tom Verducci

 

[Mac1958]

Yes, Mac is expressing an opinion.

Anyone with even a small brain understands what experience is. It is the result of acquiring skill and knowledge. In EVERY other field and position we consider experience to be a positive attribute. EXCEPT for teachers.

Yes, anyone who doesn't obediently subscribe to your particular worldview has a small brain. Fortunately, I had grown past such thought processes by the time I reached high school, perhaps you will one day.

The length of time that someone does something may or may not correlate to the knowledge and expertise that person has accumulated for that task. Some people just don't improve much, some people actually go in the opposite direction. I can't imagine you don't know this, perhaps you really don't. Fascinating.

Of course, as an obedient hardcore left wing partisan ideologue, you feel an obligation to ignore such obvious facts so that you can defend your "side". I am encumbered by no such obligations. I know that a teacher is not a sacred untouchable, that there are lousy teachers just as there are lousy everything else, and that they must be held immediately accountable for their quality of lack thereof.

But carry on, you have a "side" to spin for.

.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The point is that most of you would not have succeeded to the extent you have is without your teachers' influences in the classrooms and in life. From primary to military to university, I was blessed with great instructors.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Mac, when you write this tripe, "Yes, anyone who doesn't obediently subscribe to your particular worldview has a small brain", you are describing yourself as well.

 

[ricechickie]

Yes, anyone who doesn't obediently subscribe to your particular worldview has a small brain. Fortunately, I had grown past such thought processes by the time I reached high school, perhaps you will one day.

The length of time that someone does something may or may not correlate to the knowledge and expertise that person has accumulated for that task. Some people just don't improve much, some people actually go in the opposite direction. I can't imagine you don't know this, perhaps you really don't. Fascinating.

Of course, as an obedient hardcore left wing partisan ideologue, you feel an obligation to ignore such obvious facts so that you can defend your "side". I am encumbered by no such obligations. I know that a teacher is not a sacred untouchable, that there are lousy teachers just as there are lousy everything else, and that they must be held immediately accountable for their quality of lack thereof.

But carry on, you have a "side" to spin for.

.

Of course there are lousy teachers. But any teacher worth a damn will continue to gain knowledge with experience. In other words, teachers are often great learners.