How Much of a Theist or Atheist are You?

[Iceweasel]

If you are going to insult people's intelligence then you need to back up your assertions. Clearly the religion had a great impact but all we know about Jesus is what was written long after he was said to have moved on and none of the fantastic stories are supportable., i.e., the multitude of rising dead at his death, torn temple curtain, day into night, earthquake, etc.

Have you ever tried to find another way to interpret those events that conforms to reality?

For instance when Gandhi or Martin Luther King were assassinated it could easily be said that peoples hopes were dashed, day turned into night, and a great darkness fell over the land. Are you old enough to remember?

The veil of the temple being removed and the dead rising from their graves after Jesus was killed isn't an analogy that difficult to decipher is it? An earthquake comparable to an uprising or rioting perhaps?

Remember, there was no such thing as freedom of expression when these stories were written.

I have no need or desire anymore to twist words into anything that satisfies a preconceived belief. Your history is way off though. Stories of all types were in abundance, many religious in nature. Christians accepted some, others not. Gnosticism was widespread until the Catholic church solved that little problem.

Thank God they did.

Your god is an intolerant bloodthirsty monster then.

 

[Foxfyre]

But nobody with any intelligence or education is willing to say that Jesus of Nazareth never existed or that he did not have a profound affect on humanity as no other single individual ever has had.

Whoa, you were doing until until you started preaching and insulting. There's no evidence the Jesus character existed. He may have been borrowed or cobbled together from local folklore and deified as it went along.

If you are going to insult people's intelligence then you need to back up your assertions. Clearly the religion had a great impact but all we know about Jesus is what was written long after he was said to have moved on and none of the fantastic stories are supportable., i.e., the multitude of rising dead at his death, torn temple curtain, day into night, earthquake, etc.

In fact the historians of the day not only do not mention any of that they don't mention Jesus (except the forged snippet of Josephus mentioning his brother James). That's odd.

The most important message ever and he couldn't be bothered to write anything down? And then the message gets to mankind at least a generation later in a different language? I used to buy it all but the more I learned and thought about it the more faith I needed.

What did Constantine write down of his contribution to history? Almost all was left to historians to report

What did any major figurehead from Napoleon to Lenin to Ghandi to Hitler to Martin Luther King write down of what they did? It was left to historians to report.

I wasn't preaching. I was simply stating fact. And I did back it up in Post #315.

 

[hobelim]

If you are going to insult people's intelligence then you need to back up your assertions. Clearly the religion had a great impact but all we know about Jesus is what was written long after he was said to have moved on and none of the fantastic stories are supportable., i.e., the multitude of rising dead at his death, torn temple curtain, day into night, earthquake, etc.

Have you ever tried to find another way to interpret those events that conforms to reality?

For instance when Gandhi or Martin Luther King were assassinated it could easily be said that peoples hopes were dashed, day turned into night, and a great darkness fell over the land. Are you old enough to remember?

The veil of the temple being removed and the dead rising from their graves after Jesus was killed isn't an analogy that difficult to decipher is it? An earthquake comparable to an uprising or rioting perhaps?

Remember, there was no such thing as freedom of expression when these stories were written.

I have no need or desire anymore to twist words into anything that satisfies a preconceived belief. Your history is way off though. Stories of all types were in abundance, many religious in nature. Christians accepted some, others not. Gnosticism was widespread until the Catholic church solved that little problem.

Thank God they did.

Your god is an intolerant bloodthirsty monster then.

And ding wants to be just like him.....

 

[Mudda]

Nah. He had no impact on society. In fact his followers disappeared. The 5000 he fed with 3 fish and 2 loaves of bread didn't start churches, spread the word, erect statues or preserve anything.

So basically Paul went into Greece and those Greeks bought it hook line and sinker, just as many modern day Americans do. It blows my mind how gullible people are. Or look at Mexico. Did any Mexican ever witness Jesus perform miracles? Nope. But look how many of them are named Jesus today.

So the story is very impactful for people who are prone to being superstitious and then it's simple if you brainwash a person from age 2-18. The priest in my church tells the Lazuris story and the Jonah story like they are fact. Why does he do this? Because if they believe those stories then they'll believe Jesus walked on water and was the son of god.

No impact on society? An estimated 2+ billion Christians live on Earth now, roughly 1/3 of all people on Earth. The total world population at the time of Jesus was roughly 250,000.

Most of the world's universities, social structures, most magnificent architectural structures are due to Christian influence as is much of the literature, art, and music that has been preserved and has endured into modern times. The Bible has been the world's best selling book pretty much since the Gutenberg Bible was first published.

Most private social agencies, thrift shops, homeless shelters and ministries, ministries to lepers, addicts, orphans, and hands on ministries to some of the world's most poor and desperate people are founded and staffed by Christians. (Pretty much none by Atheists.)

With very few exceptions, almost all of the world's most prosperous nations were heavily influenced by Christian organization, philosophy, and doctrines. That would include the United States.

With very few exceptions, even in countries with little Christian presence, most of the world's calendars and the identification of the centuries are based in part on the agreed birth of Jesus of Nazareth.

Those who do not wish to believe this will of course pick this or that story or fact from the Bible and hold it up as evidence that it is all bunk. Many of those stories are indeed debatable as whether they are based on historical people or events or whether they are symbolic or parable to teach a concept. And it is legitimately debatable whether Jesus was God in human form or whether he was just a man.

But nobody with any intelligence or education is willing to say that Jesus of Nazareth never existed or that he did not have a profound affect on humanity as no other single individual ever has had.

The church was responsible for many wars, greed, power, torture, lighting people on fire... so ya, Jesus did have a big influence on western society.

Atheism and Islam and paganism have waged far more violence on the world's people than have small groups/sects of Christians or corrupt Popes who indeed did bad things. And the good that Christianity has done has outweighed the bad by a thousand fold. Those following man made religion no matter what its label are probably going to get it wrong though much may be harmless or even satisfying to those who practice it.

I don't excuse the politically motivated crusades or the Inquisitions or the Salem Witch Burnings or any other atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. But neither do I see any of those things as Christian acts but rather contrary to Christian teachings. To judge all of Christianity by those isolated and short lived acts or events is to dishonestly characterize Christianity as something it is not.

Just look at Christianity today, all the hate on gays, the church still sees women as second class citizens, the pope praying for the poor while holding a staff with a solid gold cross on it, still trying to control people, with offshoots of pedophilia, polygamy and mass suicide. So what was it again that they did for the good of society? Maybe I'll give them comforting people in times of death... What else?

That's a lot of strawmen you have there.

So you can't come up with anything good the church is responsible for?

 

[Mudda]

He could be right. After all, it's been foretold:

Yes, he could. But it could also be that he is as bat shit crazy as you are too.

I'm bat shit crazy because I ask for real proof and you can't deliver any?

No. You are bat shit crazy because you spend so much resources talking about something you don't believe in.

Just looking for proof, nothing wrong with that. Or is there?

But I have given you proof.

You gave us a lot of clown fartsmoke, but no actual proof.

 

[Mudda]

Nah. He had no impact on society. In fact his followers disappeared. The 5000 he fed with 3 fish and 2 loaves of bread didn't start churches, spread the word, erect statues or preserve anything.

So basically Paul went into Greece and those Greeks bought it hook line and sinker, just as many modern day Americans do. It blows my mind how gullible people are. Or look at Mexico. Did any Mexican ever witness Jesus perform miracles? Nope. But look how many of them are named Jesus today.

So the story is very impactful for people who are prone to being superstitious and then it's simple if you brainwash a person from age 2-18. The priest in my church tells the Lazuris story and the Jonah story like they are fact. Why does he do this? Because if they believe those stories then they'll believe Jesus walked on water and was the son of god.

No impact on society? An estimated 2+ billion Christians live on Earth now, roughly 1/3 of all people on Earth. The total world population at the time of Jesus was roughly 250,000.

Most of the world's universities, social structures, most magnificent architectural structures are due to Christian influence as is much of the literature, art, and music that has been preserved and has endured into modern times. The Bible has been the world's best selling book pretty much since the Gutenberg Bible was first published.

Most private social agencies, thrift shops, homeless shelters and ministries, ministries to lepers, addicts, orphans, and hands on ministries to some of the world's most poor and desperate people are founded and staffed by Christians. (Pretty much none by Atheists.)

With very few exceptions, almost all of the world's most prosperous nations were heavily influenced by Christian organization, philosophy, and doctrines. That would include the United States.

With very few exceptions, even in countries with little Christian presence, most of the world's calendars and the identification of the centuries are based in part on the agreed birth of Jesus of Nazareth.

Those who do not wish to believe this will of course pick this or that story or fact from the Bible and hold it up as evidence that it is all bunk. Many of those stories are indeed debatable as whether they are based on historical people or events or whether they are symbolic or parable to teach a concept. And it is legitimately debatable whether Jesus was God in human form or whether he was just a man.

But nobody with any intelligence or education is willing to say that Jesus of Nazareth never existed or that he did not have a profound affect on humanity as no other single individual ever has had.

The church was responsible for many wars, greed, power, torture, lighting people on fire... so ya, Jesus did have a big influence on western society.

Atheism and Islam and paganism have waged far more violence on the world's people than have small groups/sects of Christians or corrupt Popes who indeed did bad things. And the good that Christianity has done has outweighed the bad by a thousand fold. Those following man made religion no matter what its label are probably going to get it wrong though much may be harmless or even satisfying to those who practice it.

I don't excuse the politically motivated crusades or the Inquisitions or the Salem Witch Burnings or any other atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. But neither do I see any of those things as Christian acts but rather contrary to Christian teachings. To judge all of Christianity by those isolated and short lived acts or events is to dishonestly characterize Christianity as something it is not.

But you just did it to Islam.

Christianity has a very evil history. No matter how many good things a lie does it's still a lie and this lie is holding us back intellectually.

For example denying global warming and evolution is very Christian thing to do. Stupid

We are presently in an interglacial cycle. Our present temperature is well below the peak temperatures of previous interglacial cycles. Deny that.

But our planet shouldn't be heating up this fast. Which means that we're helping the warming.

 

[Mudda]

4. Pure agnostic. It's the thinking person's position.

I agree, as a former pure agnostic I can tell you that you'll eventually realize there is some sort of higher power, assuming you're indeed a committed thinking man.

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

 

[sealybobo]

Nah. He had no impact on society. In fact his followers disappeared. The 5000 he fed with 3 fish and 2 loaves of bread didn't start churches, spread the word, erect statues or preserve anything.

So basically Paul went into Greece and those Greeks bought it hook line and sinker, just as many modern day Americans do. It blows my mind how gullible people are. Or look at Mexico. Did any Mexican ever witness Jesus perform miracles? Nope. But look how many of them are named Jesus today.

So the story is very impactful for people who are prone to being superstitious and then it's simple if you brainwash a person from age 2-18. The priest in my church tells the Lazuris story and the Jonah story like they are fact. Why does he do this? Because if they believe those stories then they'll believe Jesus walked on water and was the son of god.

No impact on society? An estimated 2+ billion Christians live on Earth now, roughly 1/3 of all people on Earth. The total world population at the time of Jesus was roughly 250,000.

Most of the world's universities, social structures, most magnificent architectural structures are due to Christian influence as is much of the literature, art, and music that has been preserved and has endured into modern times. The Bible has been the world's best selling book pretty much since the Gutenberg Bible was first published.

Most private social agencies, thrift shops, homeless shelters and ministries, ministries to lepers, addicts, orphans, and hands on ministries to some of the world's most poor and desperate people are founded and staffed by Christians. (Pretty much none by Atheists.)

With very few exceptions, almost all of the world's most prosperous nations were heavily influenced by Christian organization, philosophy, and doctrines. That would include the United States.

With very few exceptions, even in countries with little Christian presence, most of the world's calendars and the identification of the centuries are based in part on the agreed birth of Jesus of Nazareth.

Those who do not wish to believe this will of course pick this or that story or fact from the Bible and hold it up as evidence that it is all bunk. Many of those stories are indeed debatable as whether they are based on historical people or events or whether they are symbolic or parable to teach a concept. And it is legitimately debatable whether Jesus was God in human form or whether he was just a man.

But nobody with any intelligence or education is willing to say that Jesus of Nazareth never existed or that he did not have a profound affect on humanity as no other single individual ever has had.

The church was responsible for many wars, greed, power, torture, lighting people on fire... so ya, Jesus did have a big influence on western society.

Atheism and Islam and paganism have waged far more violence on the world's people than have small groups/sects of Christians or corrupt Popes who indeed did bad things. And the good that Christianity has done has outweighed the bad by a thousand fold. Those following man made religion no matter what its label are probably going to get it wrong though much may be harmless or even satisfying to those who practice it.

I don't excuse the politically motivated crusades or the Inquisitions or the Salem Witch Burnings or any other atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. But neither do I see any of those things as Christian acts but rather contrary to Christian teachings. To judge all of Christianity by those isolated and short lived acts or events is to dishonestly characterize Christianity as something it is not.

But you just did it to Islam.

Christianity has a very evil history. No matter how many good things a lie does it's still a lie and this lie is holding us back intellectually.

For example denying global warming and evolution is very Christian thing to do. Stupid

We are presently in an interglacial cycle. Our present temperature is well below the peak temperatures of previous interglacial cycles. Deny that.

Deny that all the pollution were putting up in the atmosphere is bad for us and the bees are disappearing because of it.

Is that destiny too?

 

[sealybobo]

4. Pure agnostic. It's the thinking person's position.

I agree, as a former pure agnostic I can tell you that you'll eventually realize there is some sort of higher power, assuming you're indeed a committed thinking man.

What it is is that humans have a difficult time facing their own mortality. There is really nothing more to it than that, IMO.

No. Christians become gods after they

 

[Foxfyre]

4. Pure agnostic. It's the thinking person's position.

I agree, as a former pure agnostic I can tell you that you'll eventually realize there is some sort of higher power, assuming you're indeed a committed thinking man.

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

You can't know that because you cannot know what BTM knows or has experienced. You can only speak for yourself when it comes to matters of faith and experience. You have no information or authority to tell him what he does and does not have as proof of anything.

My experience is proof that I saw my shadow on the sidewalk this morning. But I cannot prove that I was outside or saw my shadow to another living soul because nobody saw me outside this morning. Just because it is overcast on your street one block over, does not mean that the sun did not break through on mine. We should be very careful of dictating to somebody else what he or she is required to believe.

But you say you are open to the possibility. Would you be willing to put it to the test? Ask God to make himself known to you? And put absolutely no restrictions of any kind of when, how, or in what form he does that? This is an exceedingly difficult thing for most especially highly intelligent people to do. But it is worth the effort.

 

[hobelim]

4. Pure agnostic. It's the thinking person's position.

I agree, as a former pure agnostic I can tell you that you'll eventually realize there is some sort of higher power, assuming you're indeed a committed thinking man.

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

If there is loving and benevolent creator, then he./she/it has been intimately involved in your life from the beginning.

You see no actual proof.

That is the only problem you need to address.
'
Not seeing.

.

 

[Foxfyre]

No impact on society? An estimated 2+ billion Christians live on Earth now, roughly 1/3 of all people on Earth. The total world population at the time of Jesus was roughly 250,000.

Most of the world's universities, social structures, most magnificent architectural structures are due to Christian influence as is much of the literature, art, and music that has been preserved and has endured into modern times. The Bible has been the world's best selling book pretty much since the Gutenberg Bible was first published.

Most private social agencies, thrift shops, homeless shelters and ministries, ministries to lepers, addicts, orphans, and hands on ministries to some of the world's most poor and desperate people are founded and staffed by Christians. (Pretty much none by Atheists.)

With very few exceptions, almost all of the world's most prosperous nations were heavily influenced by Christian organization, philosophy, and doctrines. That would include the United States.

With very few exceptions, even in countries with little Christian presence, most of the world's calendars and the identification of the centuries are based in part on the agreed birth of Jesus of Nazareth.

Those who do not wish to believe this will of course pick this or that story or fact from the Bible and hold it up as evidence that it is all bunk. Many of those stories are indeed debatable as whether they are based on historical people or events or whether they are symbolic or parable to teach a concept. And it is legitimately debatable whether Jesus was God in human form or whether he was just a man.

But nobody with any intelligence or education is willing to say that Jesus of Nazareth never existed or that he did not have a profound affect on humanity as no other single individual ever has had.

The church was responsible for many wars, greed, power, torture, lighting people on fire... so ya, Jesus did have a big influence on western society.

Atheism and Islam and paganism have waged far more violence on the world's people than have small groups/sects of Christians or corrupt Popes who indeed did bad things. And the good that Christianity has done has outweighed the bad by a thousand fold. Those following man made religion no matter what its label are probably going to get it wrong though much may be harmless or even satisfying to those who practice it.

I don't excuse the politically motivated crusades or the Inquisitions or the Salem Witch Burnings or any other atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. But neither do I see any of those things as Christian acts but rather contrary to Christian teachings. To judge all of Christianity by those isolated and short lived acts or events is to dishonestly characterize Christianity as something it is not.

But you just did it to Islam.

Christianity has a very evil history. No matter how many good things a lie does it's still a lie and this lie is holding us back intellectually.

For example denying global warming and evolution is very Christian thing to do. Stupid

We are presently in an interglacial cycle. Our present temperature is well below the peak temperatures of previous interglacial cycles. Deny that.

Deny that all the pollution were putting up in the atmosphere is bad for us and the bees are disappearing because of it.

Is that destiny too?

Everything I have read suggests that it is not pollutants in the atmosphere that is killing off the bees, but the fungicides and pesticides they are picking up from plant nectar and carrying back to the hive to feed to the baby bees. This weakens the baby bees so that they are far more susceptible to parasites and bee diseases that then causes the collapse of the whole colony.

This goes back to the purest definition of sin, i.e. that which harms ourselves and/or others. Sin can be born of the best intentions but have unintended consequences that are far worse than any good that is done. That's why sin is bad and we are warned of it in our religious teachings.

Adam and Eve thought eating the forbidden fruit would yield good for them. They were badly mistaken and all the world has suffered for all time because of their sin. The story is probably parable to teach a concept. But the deeper truth of it is very real. Conversely by eliminating sin. it logically follows that we can begin reversing the damage done and that too will alleviate suffering for future generations.

 

[Mudda]

4. Pure agnostic. It's the thinking person's position.

I agree, as a former pure agnostic I can tell you that you'll eventually realize there is some sort of higher power, assuming you're indeed a committed thinking man.

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

You can't know that because you cannot know what BTM knows or has experienced. You can only speak for yourself when it comes to matters of faith and experience. You have no information or authority to tell him what he does and does not have as proof of anything.

My experience is proof that I saw my shadow on the sidewalk this morning. But I cannot prove that I was outside or saw my shadow to another living soul because nobody saw me outside this morning. Just because it is overcast on your street one block over, does not mean that the sun did not break through on mine. We should be very careful of dictating to somebody else what he or she is required to believe.

But you say you are open to the possibility. Would you be willing to put it to the test? Ask God to make himself known to you? And put absolutely no restrictions of any kind of when, how, or in what form he does that? This is an exceedingly difficult thing for most especially highly intelligent people to do. But it is worth the effort.

I am totally open to god contacting me, have been for quite a long time. I've said so many times on this board that my heart is open for the supreme being to contact me. So far nothing. Nada. Zip.
Proof isn't what you might think happened to you, proof is something tangible that can be proven scientifically.

 

[Mudda]

4. Pure agnostic. It's the thinking person's position.

I agree, as a former pure agnostic I can tell you that you'll eventually realize there is some sort of higher power, assuming you're indeed a committed thinking man.

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

If there is loving and benevolent creator, then he./she/it has been intimately involved in your life from the beginning.

You see no actual proof.

That is the only problem you need to address.
'
Not seeing.

.

So I need to look at my life and say "you know that time I was hit by a car and spent 4 months in hospital, that was god trying to get in touch with me". Something like that?

 

[hobelim]

4. Pure agnostic. It's the thinking person's position.

I agree, as a former pure agnostic I can tell you that you'll eventually realize there is some sort of higher power, assuming you're indeed a committed thinking man.

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

If there is loving and benevolent creator, then he./she/it has been intimately involved in your life from the beginning.

You see no actual proof.

That is the only problem you need to address.
'
Not seeing.

.

So I need to look at my life and say "you know that time I was hit by a car and spent 4 months in hospital, that was god trying to get in touch with me". Something like that?

Sort of.

If God exists he has been leading you to him trying to get through to you already for very long time.

as if you were Helen Keller.

Eventually he will get through and a light will go off in your mind and you will see with your own inner eye that he was always there.

Don't seek proof for God somewhere out there, look within.

 

[Foxfyre]

4. Pure agnostic. It's the thinking person's position.

I agree, as a former pure agnostic I can tell you that you'll eventually realize there is some sort of higher power, assuming you're indeed a committed thinking man.

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

You can't know that because you cannot know what BTM knows or has experienced. You can only speak for yourself when it comes to matters of faith and experience. You have no information or authority to tell him what he does and does not have as proof of anything.

My experience is proof that I saw my shadow on the sidewalk this morning. But I cannot prove that I was outside or saw my shadow to another living soul because nobody saw me outside this morning. Just because it is overcast on your street one block over, does not mean that the sun did not break through on mine. We should be very careful of dictating to somebody else what he or she is required to believe.

But you say you are open to the possibility. Would you be willing to put it to the test? Ask God to make himself known to you? And put absolutely no restrictions of any kind of when, how, or in what form he does that? This is an exceedingly difficult thing for most especially highly intelligent people to do. But it is worth the effort.

I am totally open to god contacting me, have been for quite a long time. I've said so many times on this board that my heart is open for the supreme being to contact me. So far nothing. Nada. Zip.
Proof isn't what you might think happened to you, proof is something tangible that can be proven scientifically.

Then prove scientifically that I went outside and saw my shadow this morning.

Science is an incredible thing but it simply cannot answer all the questions of the universe. At least the science we have now cannot. As I believe God is the author of science, it very well may be that we simply have not evolved enough to be able to scientifically detect a spirit world. I believe we know only a teensy fraction of all the science there is to know and are still in the primitive stages of all the technology that is possible.

But if you have truly opened yourself for God to make himself known to you, and you are not placing any conditions on how or when he will do that, just stand by. And do not be stiff necked and reject the evidence as it comes to you.

 

[Mudda]

4. Pure agnostic. It's the thinking person's position.

I agree, as a former pure agnostic I can tell you that you'll eventually realize there is some sort of higher power, assuming you're indeed a committed thinking man.

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

If there is loving and benevolent creator, then he./she/it has been intimately involved in your life from the beginning.

You see no actual proof.

That is the only problem you need to address.
'
Not seeing.

.

So I need to look at my life and say "you know that time I was hit by a car and spent 4 months in hospital, that was god trying to get in touch with me". Something like that?

Sort of.

If God exists he has been leading you to him trying to get through to you already for very long time.

as if you were Helen Keller.

Eventually he will get through and a light will go off in your mind and you will see with your own inner eye that he was always there.

Don't seek proof for God somewhere out there, look within.

If god is going through all that trouble to lead me to him, why doesn't he just contact me directly? It makes no sense that he's there but won't actually do what it takes to convince me.

 

[Mudda]

4. Pure agnostic. It's the thinking person's position.

I agree, as a former pure agnostic I can tell you that you'll eventually realize there is some sort of higher power, assuming you're indeed a committed thinking man.

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

You can't know that because you cannot know what BTM knows or has experienced. You can only speak for yourself when it comes to matters of faith and experience. You have no information or authority to tell him what he does and does not have as proof of anything.

My experience is proof that I saw my shadow on the sidewalk this morning. But I cannot prove that I was outside or saw my shadow to another living soul because nobody saw me outside this morning. Just because it is overcast on your street one block over, does not mean that the sun did not break through on mine. We should be very careful of dictating to somebody else what he or she is required to believe.

But you say you are open to the possibility. Would you be willing to put it to the test? Ask God to make himself known to you? And put absolutely no restrictions of any kind of when, how, or in what form he does that? This is an exceedingly difficult thing for most especially highly intelligent people to do. But it is worth the effort.

I am totally open to god contacting me, have been for quite a long time. I've said so many times on this board that my heart is open for the supreme being to contact me. So far nothing. Nada. Zip.
Proof isn't what you might think happened to you, proof is something tangible that can be proven scientifically.

Then prove scientifically that I went outside and saw my shadow this morning.

Science is an incredible thing but it simply cannot answer all the questions of the universe. At least the science we have now cannot. As I believe God is the author of science, it very well may be that we simply have not evolved enough to be able to scientifically detect a spirit world. I believe we know only a teensy fraction of all the science there is to know and are still in the primitive stages of all the technology that is possible.

But if you have truly opened yourself for God to make himself known to you, and you are not placing any conditions on how or when he will do that, just stand by. And do not be stiff necked and reject the evidence as it comes to you.

"At least the science we have now cannot." That's why I'm agnostic.

But ya, I'm here any time god wants to contact me for real.

 

[Foxfyre]

I agree, as a former pure agnostic I can tell you that you'll eventually realize there is some sort of higher power, assuming you're indeed a committed thinking man.

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

If there is loving and benevolent creator, then he./she/it has been intimately involved in your life from the beginning.

You see no actual proof.

That is the only problem you need to address.
'
Not seeing.

.

So I need to look at my life and say "you know that time I was hit by a car and spent 4 months in hospital, that was god trying to get in touch with me". Something like that?

Sort of.

If God exists he has been leading you to him trying to get through to you already for very long time.

as if you were Helen Keller.

Eventually he will get through and a light will go off in your mind and you will see with your own inner eye that he was always there.

Don't seek proof for God somewhere out there, look within.

If god is going through all that trouble to lead me to him, why doesn't he just contact me directly? It makes no sense that he's there but won't actually do what it takes to convince me.

The people talked and walked with Jesus and watched him perform miracles, and yet they didn't understand. They didn't believe. There are many miraculous things that happen to all of us and I just can't believe they are all due to pure chance. If God spoke to you right now would you believe it? Or would you think it was due to maybe mental illness or somebody's practical joke?

You see, you are placing demands on God before you will believe. That's not the best way to get acquainted with him.

 

[Mudda]

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

If there is loving and benevolent creator, then he./she/it has been intimately involved in your life from the beginning.

You see no actual proof.

That is the only problem you need to address.
'
Not seeing.

.

So I need to look at my life and say "you know that time I was hit by a car and spent 4 months in hospital, that was god trying to get in touch with me". Something like that?

Sort of.

If God exists he has been leading you to him trying to get through to you already for very long time.

as if you were Helen Keller.

Eventually he will get through and a light will go off in your mind and you will see with your own inner eye that he was always there.

Don't seek proof for God somewhere out there, look within.

If god is going through all that trouble to lead me to him, why doesn't he just contact me directly? It makes no sense that he's there but won't actually do what it takes to convince me.

The people talked and walked with Jesus and watched him perform miracles, and yet they didn't understand. They didn't believe. There are many miraculous things that happen to all of us and I just can't believe they are all due to pure chance. If God spoke to you right now would you believe it? Or would you think it was due to maybe mental illness or somebody's practical joke?

You see, you are placing demands on God before you will believe. That's not the best way to get acquainted with him.

God knows that in my heart, I'm simply the type of person who needs concrete proof to believe something. He chooses not to contact me. That's his call.