How Much of a Theist or Atheist are You?

[Iceweasel]

My experience is proof that I saw my shadow on the sidewalk this morning. But I cannot prove that I was outside or saw my shadow to another living soul because nobody saw me outside this morning.

But any seeing person has seen their shadow so it isn't a leap. Fail.

Not a fail if your experience on the next block is different from mine on my block. You still have to take it on faith that I had a different experience than you did.

What manner of thinking is this? If you said your shadow walked away from you you'd need some evidence to be believed. Saying you had a shadow isn't a stretch.

 

[Iceweasel]

Whoa, you were doing until until you started preaching and insulting. There's no evidence the Jesus character existed. He may have been borrowed or cobbled together from local folklore and deified as it went along.

If you are going to insult people's intelligence then you need to back up your assertions. Clearly the religion had a great impact but all we know about Jesus is what was written long after he was said to have moved on and none of the fantastic stories are supportable., i.e., the multitude of rising dead at his death, torn temple curtain, day into night, earthquake, etc.

In fact the historians of the day not only do not mention any of that they don't mention Jesus (except the forged snippet of Josephus mentioning his brother James). That's odd.

The most important message ever and he couldn't be bothered to write anything down? And then the message gets to mankind at least a generation later in a different language? I used to buy it all but the more I learned and thought about it the more faith I needed.

What did Constantine write down of his contribution to history? Almost all was left to historians to report

What did any major figurehead from Napoleon to Lenin to Ghandi to Hitler to Martin Luther King write down of what they did? It was left to historians to report.

I wasn't preaching. I was simply stating fact. And I did back it up in Post #315.

It's a fact that one is not intelligent if they don't share your faith? You can't see how stupid that is? It's called a faith for a reason. You don't need faith if you have facts. Constantine had a Christian historian, his name was Eusibius. We probably know the most about the early church from him but I don't get your question. Hitler wrote a book and was on a bunch of video giving speeches. We don't need to guess. Gandi, Napoleon, Stalin, etc were all well recorded at the time. We didn't wait a generation and ask people their opinion on their whereabouts or thoughts. You are obfuscating.

Believe what you wish. I'll stand by my post.

Thanks for the permission but you made statements of faith and declared non believers as unintelligent. That's just silly.

Sorry but I did no such thing. It is rather unintelligent though to accuse people of saying something they didn't say when you can read the evidence right here.

"But nobody with any intelligence or education is willing to say that Jesus of Nazareth never existed..."

Looks plain enough to me. Does your god make you lie?

 

[Foxfyre]

My experience is proof that I saw my shadow on the sidewalk this morning. But I cannot prove that I was outside or saw my shadow to another living soul because nobody saw me outside this morning.

But any seeing person has seen their shadow so it isn't a leap. Fail.

Not a fail if your experience on the next block is different from mine on my block. You still have to take it on faith that I had a different experience than you did.

What manner of thinking is this? If you said your shadow walked away from you you'd need some evidence to be believed. Saying you had a shadow isn't a stretch.

Nope. But believing the testimony of others about anything when you have not experienced it yourself is sometimes a stretch. And refusing to believe just because you don't want to believe or because you haven't experienced it is very limiting to a person.

 

[Foxfyre]

What did Constantine write down of his contribution to history? Almost all was left to historians to report

What did any major figurehead from Napoleon to Lenin to Ghandi to Hitler to Martin Luther King write down of what they did? It was left to historians to report.

I wasn't preaching. I was simply stating fact. And I did back it up in Post #315.

It's a fact that one is not intelligent if they don't share your faith? You can't see how stupid that is? It's called a faith for a reason. You don't need faith if you have facts. Constantine had a Christian historian, his name was Eusibius. We probably know the most about the early church from him but I don't get your question. Hitler wrote a book and was on a bunch of video giving speeches. We don't need to guess. Gandi, Napoleon, Stalin, etc were all well recorded at the time. We didn't wait a generation and ask people their opinion on their whereabouts or thoughts. You are obfuscating.

Believe what you wish. I'll stand by my post.

Thanks for the permission but you made statements of faith and declared non believers as unintelligent. That's just silly.

Sorry but I did no such thing. It is rather unintelligent though to accuse people of saying something they didn't say when you can read the evidence right here.

"But nobody with any intelligence or education is willing to say that Jesus of Nazareth never existed..."

Looks plain enough to me. Does your god make you lie?

So what is wrong with saying that the intelligent--those who recognize the profound influence Jesus of Nazareth has had on the entire world--or the educated who have actually studied and understood the evidence that there is will know that Jesus of Nazareth existed? It is an either/or statement. You focused on the intelligent only and took it out of the full context.

 

[Foxfyre]

Off topic:

I'm enjoying the discussion all but I have company arriving after lunch and still have some housekeeping chores to attend to. And unfortunately, I haven't found any way to practically get that done other than just doing it.

Later

 

[Mudda]

If god is going through all that trouble to lead me to him, why doesn't he just contact me directly? It makes no sense that he's there but won't actually do what it takes to convince me.

The people talked and walked with Jesus and watched him perform miracles, and yet they didn't understand. They didn't believe. There are many miraculous things that happen to all of us and I just can't believe they are all due to pure chance. If God spoke to you right now would you believe it? Or would you think it was due to maybe mental illness or somebody's practical joke?

You see, you are placing demands on God before you will believe. That's not the best way to get acquainted with him.

God knows that in my heart, I'm simply the type of person who needs concrete proof to believe something. He chooses not to contact me. That's his call.

I understand. I also know that it is almost impossible to recognize the evidence when you put conditions on what the evidence must be.

From god it can be anything that he knows will convince me. Since he already knows what will do the trick, right?

I do not presume to know the ways of God. I can only testify to what I have personally experienced. And I believe others who had a different experience that allowed them to know that God is. Your experience may indeed be very different from mine. But you are far less likely to have it if you refuse to recognize it and/or if you put conditions on what God must do to convince you.

So like, if a fluffy rabbit crosses the road in front of me, that's god contacting me? What am I looking for? What happened to you?

 

[ding]

If you are going to insult people's intelligence then you need to back up your assertions. Clearly the religion had a great impact but all we know about Jesus is what was written long after he was said to have moved on and none of the fantastic stories are supportable., i.e., the multitude of rising dead at his death, torn temple curtain, day into night, earthquake, etc.

Have you ever tried to find another way to interpret those events that conforms to reality?

For instance when Gandhi or Martin Luther King were assassinated it could easily be said that peoples hopes were dashed, day turned into night, and a great darkness fell over the land. Are you old enough to remember?

The veil of the temple being removed and the dead rising from their graves after Jesus was killed isn't an analogy that difficult to decipher is it? An earthquake comparable to an uprising or rioting perhaps?

Remember, there was no such thing as freedom of expression when these stories were written.

I have no need or desire anymore to twist words into anything that satisfies a preconceived belief. Your history is way off though. Stories of all types were in abundance, many religious in nature. Christians accepted some, others not. Gnosticism was widespread until the Catholic church solved that little problem.

Thank God they did.

Your god is an intolerant bloodthirsty monster then.

I'll let Him know you feel that way.

 

[ding]

If you are going to insult people's intelligence then you need to back up your assertions. Clearly the religion had a great impact but all we know about Jesus is what was written long after he was said to have moved on and none of the fantastic stories are supportable., i.e., the multitude of rising dead at his death, torn temple curtain, day into night, earthquake, etc.

Have you ever tried to find another way to interpret those events that conforms to reality?

For instance when Gandhi or Martin Luther King were assassinated it could easily be said that peoples hopes were dashed, day turned into night, and a great darkness fell over the land. Are you old enough to remember?

The veil of the temple being removed and the dead rising from their graves after Jesus was killed isn't an analogy that difficult to decipher is it? An earthquake comparable to an uprising or rioting perhaps?

Remember, there was no such thing as freedom of expression when these stories were written.

I have no need or desire anymore to twist words into anything that satisfies a preconceived belief. Your history is way off though. Stories of all types were in abundance, many religious in nature. Christians accepted some, others not. Gnosticism was widespread until the Catholic church solved that little problem.

Thank God they did.

Your god is an intolerant bloodthirsty monster then.

And ding wants to be just like him.....

You mean you don't?

 

[ding]

If there is loving and benevolent creator, then he./she/it has been intimately involved in your life from the beginning.

You see no actual proof.

That is the only problem you need to address.
'
Not seeing.

.

So I need to look at my life and say "you know that time I was hit by a car and spent 4 months in hospital, that was god trying to get in touch with me". Something like that?

Sort of.

If God exists he has been leading you to him trying to get through to you already for very long time.

as if you were Helen Keller.

Eventually he will get through and a light will go off in your mind and you will see with your own inner eye that he was always there.

Don't seek proof for God somewhere out there, look within.

If god is going through all that trouble to lead me to him, why doesn't he just contact me directly? It makes no sense that he's there but won't actually do what it takes to convince me.

The people talked and walked with Jesus and watched him perform miracles, and yet they didn't understand. They didn't believe. There are many miraculous things that happen to all of us and I just can't believe they are all due to pure chance. If God spoke to you right now would you believe it? Or would you think it was due to maybe mental illness or somebody's practical joke?

You see, you are placing demands on God before you will believe. That's not the best way to get acquainted with him.

God knows that in my heart, I'm simply the type of person who needs concrete proof to believe something. He chooses not to contact me. That's his call.

Problem solved. Your loss.

 

[Mudda]

I'm very open to a higher power, of which there could very well be one. But as of right now, I see no actual proof. And neither do you.

You can't know that because you cannot know what BTM knows or has experienced. You can only speak for yourself when it comes to matters of faith and experience. You have no information or authority to tell him what he does and does not have as proof of anything.

My experience is proof that I saw my shadow on the sidewalk this morning. But I cannot prove that I was outside or saw my shadow to another living soul because nobody saw me outside this morning. Just because it is overcast on your street one block over, does not mean that the sun did not break through on mine. We should be very careful of dictating to somebody else what he or she is required to believe.

But you say you are open to the possibility. Would you be willing to put it to the test? Ask God to make himself known to you? And put absolutely no restrictions of any kind of when, how, or in what form he does that? This is an exceedingly difficult thing for most especially highly intelligent people to do. But it is worth the effort.

.

But you say you are open to the possibility. Would you be willing to put it to the test? Ask God to make himself known to you?

if what you say is true then follow your same instructions and ask the Almighty to speak not just to yourself but with someone with you for them to hear the same response ... this would be the proof Mudda could not refute. is there any irrefutable proof you have to offer.

I'm afraid ordering the Almighty to do anything is way beyond my pay grade. I however have experienced such confirmation myself, but in a way that would be incomprehensible to somebody who had never experienced it.

I'd be interested to hear that story of how god contacted you, if you don't mind sharing.

I was one of the lucky ones who have always believed or I cannot recall a time that I did not. But I have had confirmation along the way too, and reassurance that I was on the right track, or that I was the one called to do something.

One example: I was on a group ministry team in another state. There were about 30 or 40 of us in the room and the leader said she did not know who was to be the speaker that morning. She asked us all to pray. At some point I felt a presence--I cannot explain it but it was very real--and I knew I had been selected. A moment later, the leader named me. There is no way the others put that into her head telepathically or otherwise because they didn't really know me at all or what I had to offer. Nor did she for that matter.

There have been many other instances of answered prayer, information furnished, solutions offered, suggestions that when followed yielded great things. It is so difficult to explain to those who have not experienced it.

So you were hoping to get picked and you got picked. That's totally flimsy, if not completely non-existent as proof.

 

[ding]

No impact on society? An estimated 2+ billion Christians live on Earth now, roughly 1/3 of all people on Earth. The total world population at the time of Jesus was roughly 250,000.

Most of the world's universities, social structures, most magnificent architectural structures are due to Christian influence as is much of the literature, art, and music that has been preserved and has endured into modern times. The Bible has been the world's best selling book pretty much since the Gutenberg Bible was first published.

Most private social agencies, thrift shops, homeless shelters and ministries, ministries to lepers, addicts, orphans, and hands on ministries to some of the world's most poor and desperate people are founded and staffed by Christians. (Pretty much none by Atheists.)

With very few exceptions, almost all of the world's most prosperous nations were heavily influenced by Christian organization, philosophy, and doctrines. That would include the United States.

With very few exceptions, even in countries with little Christian presence, most of the world's calendars and the identification of the centuries are based in part on the agreed birth of Jesus of Nazareth.

Those who do not wish to believe this will of course pick this or that story or fact from the Bible and hold it up as evidence that it is all bunk. Many of those stories are indeed debatable as whether they are based on historical people or events or whether they are symbolic or parable to teach a concept. And it is legitimately debatable whether Jesus was God in human form or whether he was just a man.

But nobody with any intelligence or education is willing to say that Jesus of Nazareth never existed or that he did not have a profound affect on humanity as no other single individual ever has had.

The church was responsible for many wars, greed, power, torture, lighting people on fire... so ya, Jesus did have a big influence on western society.

Atheism and Islam and paganism have waged far more violence on the world's people than have small groups/sects of Christians or corrupt Popes who indeed did bad things. And the good that Christianity has done has outweighed the bad by a thousand fold. Those following man made religion no matter what its label are probably going to get it wrong though much may be harmless or even satisfying to those who practice it.

I don't excuse the politically motivated crusades or the Inquisitions or the Salem Witch Burnings or any other atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. But neither do I see any of those things as Christian acts but rather contrary to Christian teachings. To judge all of Christianity by those isolated and short lived acts or events is to dishonestly characterize Christianity as something it is not.

But you just did it to Islam.

Christianity has a very evil history. No matter how many good things a lie does it's still a lie and this lie is holding us back intellectually.

For example denying global warming and evolution is very Christian thing to do. Stupid

We are presently in an interglacial cycle. Our present temperature is well below the peak temperatures of previous interglacial cycles. Deny that.

But our planet shouldn't be heating up this fast. Which means that we're helping the warming.

Who says this is any different than previous interglacial cycles? Does that mean you concede that our present temperature is below previous interglacial cycles.

 

[Mudda]

So I need to look at my life and say "you know that time I was hit by a car and spent 4 months in hospital, that was god trying to get in touch with me". Something like that?

Sort of.

If God exists he has been leading you to him trying to get through to you already for very long time.

as if you were Helen Keller.

Eventually he will get through and a light will go off in your mind and you will see with your own inner eye that he was always there.

Don't seek proof for God somewhere out there, look within.

If god is going through all that trouble to lead me to him, why doesn't he just contact me directly? It makes no sense that he's there but won't actually do what it takes to convince me.

The people talked and walked with Jesus and watched him perform miracles, and yet they didn't understand. They didn't believe. There are many miraculous things that happen to all of us and I just can't believe they are all due to pure chance. If God spoke to you right now would you believe it? Or would you think it was due to maybe mental illness or somebody's practical joke?

You see, you are placing demands on God before you will believe. That's not the best way to get acquainted with him.

God knows that in my heart, I'm simply the type of person who needs concrete proof to believe something. He chooses not to contact me. That's his call.

Problem solved. Your loss.

So in your opinion, what am I looking for as a sign from god? Maybe I've seen a bunch and never thought of them that way. Go for it. I have a big bag.

 

[Mudda]

The church was responsible for many wars, greed, power, torture, lighting people on fire... so ya, Jesus did have a big influence on western society.

Atheism and Islam and paganism have waged far more violence on the world's people than have small groups/sects of Christians or corrupt Popes who indeed did bad things. And the good that Christianity has done has outweighed the bad by a thousand fold. Those following man made religion no matter what its label are probably going to get it wrong though much may be harmless or even satisfying to those who practice it.

I don't excuse the politically motivated crusades or the Inquisitions or the Salem Witch Burnings or any other atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. But neither do I see any of those things as Christian acts but rather contrary to Christian teachings. To judge all of Christianity by those isolated and short lived acts or events is to dishonestly characterize Christianity as something it is not.

But you just did it to Islam.

Christianity has a very evil history. No matter how many good things a lie does it's still a lie and this lie is holding us back intellectually.

For example denying global warming and evolution is very Christian thing to do. Stupid

We are presently in an interglacial cycle. Our present temperature is well below the peak temperatures of previous interglacial cycles. Deny that.

But our planet shouldn't be heating up this fast. Which means that we're helping the warming.

Who says this is any different than previous interglacial cycles? Does that mean you concede that our present temperature is below previous interglacial cycles.

Science says that humans are influencing the warming of the planet. Or don't you believe in science today?

 

[Foxfyre]

You can't know that because you cannot know what BTM knows or has experienced. You can only speak for yourself when it comes to matters of faith and experience. You have no information or authority to tell him what he does and does not have as proof of anything.

My experience is proof that I saw my shadow on the sidewalk this morning. But I cannot prove that I was outside or saw my shadow to another living soul because nobody saw me outside this morning. Just because it is overcast on your street one block over, does not mean that the sun did not break through on mine. We should be very careful of dictating to somebody else what he or she is required to believe.

But you say you are open to the possibility. Would you be willing to put it to the test? Ask God to make himself known to you? And put absolutely no restrictions of any kind of when, how, or in what form he does that? This is an exceedingly difficult thing for most especially highly intelligent people to do. But it is worth the effort.

.

But you say you are open to the possibility. Would you be willing to put it to the test? Ask God to make himself known to you?

if what you say is true then follow your same instructions and ask the Almighty to speak not just to yourself but with someone with you for them to hear the same response ... this would be the proof Mudda could not refute. is there any irrefutable proof you have to offer.

I'm afraid ordering the Almighty to do anything is way beyond my pay grade. I however have experienced such confirmation myself, but in a way that would be incomprehensible to somebody who had never experienced it.

I'd be interested to hear that story of how god contacted you, if you don't mind sharing.

I was one of the lucky ones who have always believed or I cannot recall a time that I did not. But I have had confirmation along the way too, and reassurance that I was on the right track, or that I was the one called to do something.

One example: I was on a group ministry team in another state. There were about 30 or 40 of us in the room and the leader said she did not know who was to be the speaker that morning. She asked us all to pray. At some point I felt a presence--I cannot explain it but it was very real--and I knew I had been selected. A moment later, the leader named me. There is no way the others put that into her head telepathically or otherwise because they didn't really know me at all or what I had to offer. Nor did she for that matter.

There have been many other instances of answered prayer, information furnished, solutions offered, suggestions that when followed yielded great things. It is so difficult to explain to those who have not experienced it.

So you were hoping to get picked and you got picked. That's totally flimsy, if not completely non-existent as proof.

Not so. I absolutely was not wanting or expecting to be picked. I was probably the most surprised person in the room. But you illustrate how difficult it is to explain these things to somebody who refuses to even consider possibilities, much less believe. So I won't even bother to finish the story as to why I think I was picked and what that yielded that morning.

The Bible instructs us not to throw our pearls before swine. (Disclaimer: That is a metaphorical reference and does not infer that you are 'swine' so don't even go there.)

The point of course is that we waste time and energy trying to convince those who refuse to even think about something, much less consider it as possible.

 

[Mudda]

.
if what you say is true then follow your same instructions and ask the Almighty to speak not just to yourself but with someone with you for them to hear the same response ... this would be the proof Mudda could not refute. is there any irrefutable proof you have to offer.

I'm afraid ordering the Almighty to do anything is way beyond my pay grade. I however have experienced such confirmation myself, but in a way that would be incomprehensible to somebody who had never experienced it.

I'd be interested to hear that story of how god contacted you, if you don't mind sharing.

I was one of the lucky ones who have always believed or I cannot recall a time that I did not. But I have had confirmation along the way too, and reassurance that I was on the right track, or that I was the one called to do something.

One example: I was on a group ministry team in another state. There were about 30 or 40 of us in the room and the leader said she did not know who was to be the speaker that morning. She asked us all to pray. At some point I felt a presence--I cannot explain it but it was very real--and I knew I had been selected. A moment later, the leader named me. There is no way the others put that into her head telepathically or otherwise because they didn't really know me at all or what I had to offer. Nor did she for that matter.

There have been many other instances of answered prayer, information furnished, solutions offered, suggestions that when followed yielded great things. It is so difficult to explain to those who have not experienced it.

So you were hoping to get picked and you got picked. That's totally flimsy, if not completely non-existent as proof.

Not so. I absolutely was not wanting or expecting to be picked. I was probably the most surprised person in the room. But you illustrate how difficult it is to explain these things to somebody who refuses to even consider possibilities, much less believe. So I won't even bother to finish the story as to why I think I was picked and what that yielded that morning.

The Bible instructs us not to throw our pearls before swine. (Disclaimer: That is a metaphorical reference and does not infer that you are 'swine' so don't even go there.)

The point of course is that we waste time and energy trying to convince those who refuse to even think about something, much less consider it as possible.

Ok, now you HAVE to tell me what you won, lol. It sounds like the clincher to your story, so let's have it. Because I'm simply having trouble seeing that you win a sort of lottery as god's intervention.

 

[ding]

Sort of.

If God exists he has been leading you to him trying to get through to you already for very long time.

as if you were Helen Keller.

Eventually he will get through and a light will go off in your mind and you will see with your own inner eye that he was always there.

Don't seek proof for God somewhere out there, look within.

If god is going through all that trouble to lead me to him, why doesn't he just contact me directly? It makes no sense that he's there but won't actually do what it takes to convince me.

The people talked and walked with Jesus and watched him perform miracles, and yet they didn't understand. They didn't believe. There are many miraculous things that happen to all of us and I just can't believe they are all due to pure chance. If God spoke to you right now would you believe it? Or would you think it was due to maybe mental illness or somebody's practical joke?

You see, you are placing demands on God before you will believe. That's not the best way to get acquainted with him.

God knows that in my heart, I'm simply the type of person who needs concrete proof to believe something. He chooses not to contact me. That's his call.

Problem solved. Your loss.

So in your opinion, what am I looking for as a sign from god? Maybe I've seen a bunch and never thought of them that way. Go for it. I have a big bag.

I have no idea what you are looking for but then again I don't think you are looking at all.

 

[ding]

Atheism and Islam and paganism have waged far more violence on the world's people than have small groups/sects of Christians or corrupt Popes who indeed did bad things. And the good that Christianity has done has outweighed the bad by a thousand fold. Those following man made religion no matter what its label are probably going to get it wrong though much may be harmless or even satisfying to those who practice it.

I don't excuse the politically motivated crusades or the Inquisitions or the Salem Witch Burnings or any other atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. But neither do I see any of those things as Christian acts but rather contrary to Christian teachings. To judge all of Christianity by those isolated and short lived acts or events is to dishonestly characterize Christianity as something it is not.

But you just did it to Islam.

Christianity has a very evil history. No matter how many good things a lie does it's still a lie and this lie is holding us back intellectually.

For example denying global warming and evolution is very Christian thing to do. Stupid

We are presently in an interglacial cycle. Our present temperature is well below the peak temperatures of previous interglacial cycles. Deny that.

But our planet shouldn't be heating up this fast. Which means that we're helping the warming.

Who says this is any different than previous interglacial cycles? Does that mean you concede that our present temperature is below previous interglacial cycles.

Science says that humans are influencing the warming of the planet. Or don't you believe in science today?

Science tells us they we have been cycling between glacial and interglacial cycles and that our present temperature is below the temperatures of previous interglacial cycles. What you are referring to are computer models.

 

[Iceweasel]

It's a fact that one is not intelligent if they don't share your faith? You can't see how stupid that is? It's called a faith for a reason. You don't need faith if you have facts. Constantine had a Christian historian, his name was Eusibius. We probably know the most about the early church from him but I don't get your question. Hitler wrote a book and was on a bunch of video giving speeches. We don't need to guess. Gandi, Napoleon, Stalin, etc were all well recorded at the time. We didn't wait a generation and ask people their opinion on their whereabouts or thoughts. You are obfuscating.

Believe what you wish. I'll stand by my post.

Thanks for the permission but you made statements of faith and declared non believers as unintelligent. That's just silly.

Sorry but I did no such thing. It is rather unintelligent though to accuse people of saying something they didn't say when you can read the evidence right here.

"But nobody with any intelligence or education is willing to say that Jesus of Nazareth never existed..."

Looks plain enough to me. Does your god make you lie?

So what is wrong with saying that the intelligent--those who recognize the profound influence Jesus of Nazareth has had on the entire world--or the educated who have actually studied and understood the evidence that there is will know that Jesus of Nazareth existed? It is an either/or statement. You focused on the intelligent only and took it out of the full context.

Nope. Why do you mischaracterize people? I agreed Christianity plays a profound role but took issue with your statement that I even put in bold. Do you need giant red letters. I asked for said evidence, so far nothing. I have studied up on biblical matters for over twenty years so I'd love to see it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Believe what you wish. I'll stand by my post.

Thanks for the permission but you made statements of faith and declared non believers as unintelligent. That's just silly.

Sorry but I did no such thing. It is rather unintelligent though to accuse people of saying something they didn't say when you can read the evidence right here.

"But nobody with any intelligence or education is willing to say that Jesus of Nazareth never existed..."

Looks plain enough to me. Does your god make you lie?

So what is wrong with saying that the intelligent--those who recognize the profound influence Jesus of Nazareth has had on the entire world--or the educated who have actually studied and understood the evidence that there is will know that Jesus of Nazareth existed? It is an either/or statement. You focused on the intelligent only and took it out of the full context.

Nope. Why do you mischaracterize people? I agreed Christianity plays a profound role but took issue with your statement that I even put in bold. Do you need giant red letters. I asked for said evidence, so far nothing. I have studied up on biblical matters for over twenty years so I'd love to see it.

I referred you to the evidence but you probably didn't read that any better than you did my other post. So it sort of follows that your 20-year study may possibly have been lacking.

 

[Iceweasel]

My experience is proof that I saw my shadow on the sidewalk this morning. But I cannot prove that I was outside or saw my shadow to another living soul because nobody saw me outside this morning.

But any seeing person has seen their shadow so it isn't a leap. Fail.

Not a fail if your experience on the next block is different from mine on my block. You still have to take it on faith that I had a different experience than you did.

What manner of thinking is this? If you said your shadow walked away from you you'd need some evidence to be believed. Saying you had a shadow isn't a stretch.

Nope. But believing the testimony of others about anything when you have not experienced it yourself is sometimes a stretch. And refusing to believe just because you don't want to believe or because you haven't experienced it is very limiting to a person.

It's one thing to accept that the Earth is round or what the speed of light is if those studying come up with the same answer. That's different than accepting beliefs based on faith. It isn't matter of what I want to believe, I wanted very much to believe in Christianity and did so for 20 plus years. My friends were Christian. It was comforting to believe that God knows me and cares. However the more I dug into things the more faith it required of me. And it took a good three years after knowing it wasn't true that I could call myself a non-Christian. It was very much part of me.

So it is a little irritating when someone accuses you of not thinking because you don't share the faith. You are in effect saying it isn't a faith but a fact. And when asked for said facts you get defensive.