How the Government protects your rights

[bucs90]

This thread is to discuss how the governments (yes, plural) of this country DO protect our rights. The military and police are obviously the tools we use to do it. But, in the macro sense of the topic, here is why:

If you were on a giant island with 1,000 other people, with NO government, then there are no rights. Nope. Not at all. Its every man for himself. Survival of the fittest. Each man may think he alone has certain rights, but the other 1,000 may not.

So, what if those 1,001 people get together, and agree on certain rights. They make a bill, with 5 specific rights.

But what if 100 of those savages say "Fuck that, I dont recognize your rights, and when the time is right, I'll kill you, steal from you, rape your daughter, or burn your home."

Well, thats no good. Even if you have rights, those others dont recognize it.

So, what if those 1,001 people see that........and the other 901 decide they need an "Island Watch" that will be tasked with making sure those other 100 people....as well as the rest of the 901, respect those rights and dont do anything that would violate them.

So now you have the Island's 5 Rights written down, and a group who will act on behalf of the island residents to make sure the entire population abides by those 5 rights.

1 Islander is put in charge of the Island Watch, a group of 50 Islanders. BUT....what if Island Watch gets power hungry, and they start breaking the rules? Well, the Islanders agree that every 6 months, all 1,001 will vote on a new Island Watch Chief. And, the Island Watch is not immune to the rules of the island, so, if they violate one, they too can be punished as the rest of the people would be. In fact, to ensure this, they split Island Watch into 4 different groups of Island Watch. One has the whole island. The other 3 split the island into 3 parts, and govern only those. Of one of the 3 does something wrong, the first Whole Island Watch can govern them. If Whole Island does something wrong, then whichever area of the 3 they did it in....that 1 of 3 can punish them. We'll call it "Checks and Balances", and we'll elect 4 citizens who are NOT part of Island Watch to oversee the process. We'll call them "Island Judges".


I can go on and on, but you see the point. Government is nothing but a body of people who work to esnure that our society acknowledges and respects the rights we came up with.


Otherwise........we are just 300,000,000 people living on a big chunk of land in between two big oceans, and we'd have 300,000,000 different opinions on what each persons "rights" are.

This is common sense, basic Civics 101 shit here. I dont know why its so hard for some to understand?

 

[Agit8r]

This is common sense, basic Civics 101 shit here. I don't know why its so hard for some to understand?

in all fairness, it must take at least 80... maybe 85 IQ, and we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings here.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

When a Government CHOOSES to ignore, illegally alter, or change the written rules, as Our Government has done and continues to do, you no longer have a Government of the people. You have a Bureaucracy lead by a few people trampling on the agreed upon rights.

 

[Agit8r]

When a Government CHOOSES to ignore, illegally alter, or change the written rules...

um... what?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

When a Government CHOOSES to ignore, illegally alter, or change the written rules...

um... what?

And you claimed we were stupid.

 

[bucs90]

When a Government CHOOSES to ignore, illegally alter, or change the written rules, as Our Government has done and continues to do, you no longer have a Government of the people. You have a Bureaucracy lead by a few people trampling on the agreed upon rights.

Thats true. Like the DOJ ignoring Voter Rights laws, just because of race. Or, NYPD's Stop and Frisk policy. I haven't read much about that policy, but, I do know as a former cop that to legally stop a person, you must have at a minimum "Reasonable Suspicion", meaning a reasonable belief that a person may have been or about to be involved in a crime. And to frisk a person, you MUST have some knowledge that a person could possibly be armed illegally. I'd like to see more on that policy.

But other times, governments do protect our rights. Like how the State Law Enforcement Division in S.C. back in the 80's cracked down on the North Charleston Police Dept for 4th amendment and use of force violations, with numerous officers going to jail.

I do acknowledge though, that if the Feds are the ones violating laws, it is hard to punish them. In theory, if an FBI agent illegally detains someone, then the local police in that jurisdiction could arrest that FBI agent. But even if they did, and that agent was 1,000 miles away in Washington DC afterwards, is a local PD gonna have the will and finances to send a team of detectives to DC to try to arrest him? When it comes to LE, that is one of my concerns, how can local and state governments hold fedreal agents accountable if they do wrong. I dont have any examples of that to give, although Im sure they've happened, but that is a concern.

 

[whitehall]

This thread is to discuss how the governments (yes, plural) of this country DO protect our rights. The military and police are obviously the tools we use to do it. But, in the macro sense of the topic, here is why:

If you were on a giant island with 1,000 other people, with NO government, then there are no rights. Nope. Not at all. Its every man for himself. Survival of the fittest. Each man may think he alone has certain rights, but the other 1,000 may not.

So, what if those 1,001 people get together, and agree on certain rights. They make a bill, with 5 specific rights.

But what if 100 of those savages say "Fuck that, I dont recognize your rights, and when the time is right, I'll kill you, steal from you, rape your daughter, or burn your home."

Well, thats no good. Even if you have rights, those others dont recognize it.

So, what if those 1,001 people see that........and the other 901 decide they need an "Island Watch" that will be tasked with making sure those other 100 people....as well as the rest of the 901, respect those rights and dont do anything that would violate them.

So now you have the Island's 5 Rights written down, and a group who will act on behalf of the island residents to make sure the entire population abides by those 5 rights.

1 Islander is put in charge of the Island Watch, a group of 50 Islanders. BUT....what if Island Watch gets power hungry, and they start breaking the rules? Well, the Islanders agree that every 6 months, all 1,001 will vote on a new Island Watch Chief. And, the Island Watch is not immune to the rules of the island, so, if they violate one, they too can be punished as the rest of the people would be. In fact, to ensure this, they split Island Watch into 4 different groups of Island Watch. One has the whole island. The other 3 split the island into 3 parts, and govern only those. Of one of the 3 does something wrong, the first Whole Island Watch can govern them. If Whole Island does something wrong, then whichever area of the 3 they did it in....that 1 of 3 can punish them. We'll call it "Checks and Balances", and we'll elect 4 citizens who are NOT part of Island Watch to oversee the process. We'll call them "Island Judges".


I can go on and on, but you see the point. Government is nothing but a body of people who work to esnure that our society acknowledges and respects the rights we came up with.


Otherwise........we are just 300,000,000 people living on a big chunk of land in between two big oceans, and we'd have 300,000,000 different opinions on what each persons "rights" are.

This is common sense, basic Civics 101 shit here. I dont know why its so hard for some to understand?

A stupid rant about "rights" and no mention of the Constitution. Typical left wing crap.

 

[Agit8r]

When a Government CHOOSES to ignore, illegally alter, or change the written rules...

um... what?

And you claimed we were stupid.

examples?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

um... what?

And you claimed we were stupid.

examples?

The Federal Government has ONLY those powers delineated in the Constitution. There is no authority for Social Security, Medicare, HUD, Education or a myriad of other powers assumed since the 1930's. The general claim is that some how magically they all fall under the Commerce clause.

 

[Agit8r]

And you claimed we were stupid.

examples?

The Federal Government has ONLY those powers delineated in the Constitution. There is no authority for Social Security, Medicare, HUD, Education or a myriad of other powers assumed since the 1930's. The general claim is that some how magically they all fall under the Commerce clause.

Meh

"Had the convention attempted a positive enumeration of the powers necessary and proper for carrying their other powers into effect, the attempt would have involved a complete digest of laws on every subject to which the Constitution relates; accommodated too, not only to the existing state of things, but to all the possible changes which futurity may produce; for in every new application of a general power, the particular powers, which are the means of attaining the object of the general power, must always necessarily vary with that object, and be often properly varied whilst the object remains the same."
-- from Federalist 44

 

[bucs90]

This thread is to discuss how the governments (yes, plural) of this country DO protect our rights. The military and police are obviously the tools we use to do it. But, in the macro sense of the topic, here is why:

If you were on a giant island with 1,000 other people, with NO government, then there are no rights. Nope. Not at all. Its every man for himself. Survival of the fittest. Each man may think he alone has certain rights, but the other 1,000 may not.

So, what if those 1,001 people get together, and agree on certain rights. They make a bill, with 5 specific rights.

But what if 100 of those savages say "Fuck that, I dont recognize your rights, and when the time is right, I'll kill you, steal from you, rape your daughter, or burn your home."

Well, thats no good. Even if you have rights, those others dont recognize it.

So, what if those 1,001 people see that........and the other 901 decide they need an "Island Watch" that will be tasked with making sure those other 100 people....as well as the rest of the 901, respect those rights and dont do anything that would violate them.

So now you have the Island's 5 Rights written down, and a group who will act on behalf of the island residents to make sure the entire population abides by those 5 rights.

1 Islander is put in charge of the Island Watch, a group of 50 Islanders. BUT....what if Island Watch gets power hungry, and they start breaking the rules? Well, the Islanders agree that every 6 months, all 1,001 will vote on a new Island Watch Chief. And, the Island Watch is not immune to the rules of the island, so, if they violate one, they too can be punished as the rest of the people would be. In fact, to ensure this, they split Island Watch into 4 different groups of Island Watch. One has the whole island. The other 3 split the island into 3 parts, and govern only those. Of one of the 3 does something wrong, the first Whole Island Watch can govern them. If Whole Island does something wrong, then whichever area of the 3 they did it in....that 1 of 3 can punish them. We'll call it "Checks and Balances", and we'll elect 4 citizens who are NOT part of Island Watch to oversee the process. We'll call them "Island Judges".


I can go on and on, but you see the point. Government is nothing but a body of people who work to esnure that our society acknowledges and respects the rights we came up with.


Otherwise........we are just 300,000,000 people living on a big chunk of land in between two big oceans, and we'd have 300,000,000 different opinions on what each persons "rights" are.

This is common sense, basic Civics 101 shit here. I dont know why its so hard for some to understand?

A stupid rant about "rights" and no mention of the Constitution. Typical left wing crap.

My scenario involved 1,001 citizens of an island who drew up their own Bill of Rights, with 5 rights, and they moved on from there.

The Constitution was a LOT of citizens, after winning a war for independence, founding their new society with a Bill of Rights with 10 rights.

Are you that dumb to not read the context?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

This thread is to discuss how the governments (yes, plural) of this country DO protect our rights. The military and police are obviously the tools we use to do it. But, in the macro sense of the topic, here is why:

If you were on a giant island with 1,000 other people, with NO government, then there are no rights. Nope. Not at all. Its every man for himself. Survival of the fittest. Each man may think he alone has certain rights, but the other 1,000 may not.

So, what if those 1,001 people get together, and agree on certain rights. They make a bill, with 5 specific rights.

But what if 100 of those savages say "Fuck that, I dont recognize your rights, and when the time is right, I'll kill you, steal from you, rape your daughter, or burn your home."

Well, thats no good. Even if you have rights, those others dont recognize it.

So, what if those 1,001 people see that........and the other 901 decide they need an "Island Watch" that will be tasked with making sure those other 100 people....as well as the rest of the 901, respect those rights and dont do anything that would violate them.

So now you have the Island's 5 Rights written down, and a group who will act on behalf of the island residents to make sure the entire population abides by those 5 rights.

1 Islander is put in charge of the Island Watch, a group of 50 Islanders. BUT....what if Island Watch gets power hungry, and they start breaking the rules? Well, the Islanders agree that every 6 months, all 1,001 will vote on a new Island Watch Chief. And, the Island Watch is not immune to the rules of the island, so, if they violate one, they too can be punished as the rest of the people would be. In fact, to ensure this, they split Island Watch into 4 different groups of Island Watch. One has the whole island. The other 3 split the island into 3 parts, and govern only those. Of one of the 3 does something wrong, the first Whole Island Watch can govern them. If Whole Island does something wrong, then whichever area of the 3 they did it in....that 1 of 3 can punish them. We'll call it "Checks and Balances", and we'll elect 4 citizens who are NOT part of Island Watch to oversee the process. We'll call them "Island Judges".


I can go on and on, but you see the point. Government is nothing but a body of people who work to esnure that our society acknowledges and respects the rights we came up with.


Otherwise........we are just 300,000,000 people living on a big chunk of land in between two big oceans, and we'd have 300,000,000 different opinions on what each persons "rights" are.

This is common sense, basic Civics 101 shit here. I dont know why its so hard for some to understand?

A stupid rant about "rights" and no mention of the Constitution. Typical left wing crap.

My scenario involved 1,001 citizens of an island who drew up their own Bill of Rights, with 5 rights, and they moved on from there.

The Constitution was a LOT of citizens, after winning a war for independence, founding their new society with a Bill of Rights with 10 rights.

Are you that dumb to not read the context?

Remind us of your position on just one of those rights? The 2nd Amendment?

 

[bucs90]

And you claimed we were stupid.

examples?

The Federal Government has ONLY those powers delineated in the Constitution. There is no authority for Social Security, Medicare, HUD, Education or a myriad of other powers assumed since the 1930's. The general claim is that some how magically they all fall under the Commerce clause.

I've never disagreed with that at all.

But, that said, the Constitution also would not allow for the FBI or FEMA. For a while, the Coast Guard would've been un-Constitutional when it was under the Dept of Transportation rather than it's current home under the DOD. And I see valid reasons to have all of those. Would you agree?

 

[bucs90]

A stupid rant about "rights" and no mention of the Constitution. Typical left wing crap.

My scenario involved 1,001 citizens of an island who drew up their own Bill of Rights, with 5 rights, and they moved on from there.

The Constitution was a LOT of citizens, after winning a war for independence, founding their new society with a Bill of Rights with 10 rights.

Are you that dumb to not read the context?

Remind us of your position on just one of those rights? The 2nd Amendment?

Sure.

The 2nd amendment guarantees us the right to own firearms.

Just because I told the Republicans to fuck off doesnt make me a raging hipster liberal, despite being labeled that by the right wing partisans.

I personally own a Rock River M4, a Yugoslavian "AK" (not a true AK, but exactly the same parts and function), two Mossberg 500s, a Smith & Wesson M&P .45 and .40, as well as a Glock 22 identical to my old police sidearm.

I believe I have every right to own those, as should all other Americans who are not mentally insane, or who have violent criminal histories.

I know from my time working police patrols that NO GUN LAW will ever work. We banned crack cocaine, and Atlanta is still flooded with that poison to society. I understand and agree with the reasonable Class 3 regulations on full-auto weapons, and I understand and agree with the ban on civilian owned explosives like an RPG or claymore mine.

Next right to comment on?

 

[Agit8r]

examples?

The Federal Government has ONLY those powers delineated in the Constitution. There is no authority for Social Security, Medicare, HUD, Education or a myriad of other powers assumed since the 1930's. The general claim is that some how magically they all fall under the Commerce clause.

I've never disagreed with that at all.

But, that said, the Constitution also would not allow for the FBI or FEMA. For a while, the Coast Guard would've been un-Constitutional when it was under the Dept of Transportation rather than it's current home under the DOD. And I see valid reasons to have all of those. Would you agree?

actually it had it's roots in the Treasury Dept

United States Coast Guard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But Hamilton bailed out Wall Street, so we know he can't be trusted

 

[bucs90]

The Federal Government has ONLY those powers delineated in the Constitution. There is no authority for Social Security, Medicare, HUD, Education or a myriad of other powers assumed since the 1930's. The general claim is that some how magically they all fall under the Commerce clause.

I've never disagreed with that at all.

But, that said, the Constitution also would not allow for the FBI or FEMA. For a while, the Coast Guard would've been un-Constitutional when it was under the Dept of Transportation rather than it's current home under the DOD. And I see valid reasons to have all of those. Would you agree?

actually it had it's roots in the Treasury Dept

United States Coast Guard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But Hamilton bailed out Wall Street, so we know he can't be trusted

Ah, cool, didnt know that.

I've said many times that the FBI would be un-Constitutional to the purists. They have yet to comment on it.

The FBI is not part of any "standing army". It is not the police agency of any state, county or city. It is purely the National Police Force of the Federal Government, which by Constitutional purity, would be forbidden.

Im awaiting a right winger to justify getting rid of the FBI.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

When a Government CHOOSES to ignore, illegally alter, or change the written rules...

um... what?

He is speaking TRUTH to you. Obviously it is creating a problem for you. Not surprised...

-Jeremiah

 

[Agit8r]

I've never disagreed with that at all.

But, that said, the Constitution also would not allow for the FBI or FEMA. For a while, the Coast Guard would've been un-Constitutional when it was under the Dept of Transportation rather than it's current home under the DOD. And I see valid reasons to have all of those. Would you agree?

actually it had it's roots in the Treasury Dept

United States Coast Guard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But Hamilton bailed out Wall Street, so we know he can't be trusted

Ah, cool, didnt know that.

I've said many times that the FBI would be un-Constitutional to the purists. They have yet to comment on it.

The FBI is not part of any "standing army". It is not the police agency of any state, county or city. It is purely the National Police Force of the Federal Government, which by Constitutional purity, would be forbidden.

Im awaiting a right winger to justify getting rid of the FBI.

Don't forget the CIA, the NSA, and DEA. And if wanted to get really nit-picky, there is the Air Force...

 

[bucs90]

actually it had it's roots in the Treasury Dept

United States Coast Guard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But Hamilton bailed out Wall Street, so we know he can't be trusted

Ah, cool, didnt know that.

I've said many times that the FBI would be un-Constitutional to the purists. They have yet to comment on it.

The FBI is not part of any "standing army". It is not the police agency of any state, county or city. It is purely the National Police Force of the Federal Government, which by Constitutional purity, would be forbidden.

Im awaiting a right winger to justify getting rid of the FBI.

Don't forget the CIA, the NSA, and DEA. And if wanted to get really nit-picky, there is the Air Force...

Well the AF is military, and part of the "standing army" implied by the document. So thats fine.

But yes, I have yet to get a Constitutional purist to respond when I asked if the FBI, FEMA, DEA, CIA, Border Patrol should be disbanded, as they are not part of a standing army, or run by the states or counties or cities.

Havent gotten much of an answer on that yet though.

In fact, wouldnt it be ILLEGAL to have the Border Patrol enforce illegal immigration inside our border, since that would mean they are in the county or city of an already existing government, AND the Border Patrol isn't part of a "standing army", and thus, not Constitutional? So, shouldnt only the states and counties on the border be responsible for enforcing the border?? And on that note, I would agree that the states and counties should be allowed to do just that.

 

[hunarcy]

When a Government CHOOSES to ignore, illegally alter, or change the written rules...

um... what?

The Obama administration is drawing up plans to give all U.S. spy agencies full access to a massive database that contains financial data on American citizens and others who bank in the country, according to a Treasury Department document seen by Reuters.

EXCLUSIVE - U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances | Reuters