How the Government protects your rights

[Papageorgio]

um... what?

The Obama administration is drawing up plans to give all U.S. spy agencies full access to a massive database that contains financial data on American citizens and others who bank in the country, according to a Treasury Department document seen by Reuters.

EXCLUSIVE - U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances | Reuters

Al Qaida operatives, Iranian spies, Russian spies, Hezbollah cells, etc, etc, etc.......are all funded through domestic banking accounts.

So they need to have access EVERY American's information, without probable cause?

 

[Papageorgio]

Ah, cool, didnt know that.

I've said many times that the FBI would be un-Constitutional to the purists. They have yet to comment on it.

The FBI is not part of any "standing army". It is not the police agency of any state, county or city. It is purely the National Police Force of the Federal Government, which by Constitutional purity, would be forbidden.

Im awaiting a right winger to justify getting rid of the FBI.

I am still waiting for people to justify having it. If someone actually comes up with a reasonable justification I will work on justifying getting rid of it.

The federal government has the power to make laws, it therefore has the power to maintain a means of enforcing those laws.

Yes but our government cannot just decide to investigate you without probable cause. That is out of their authority and that is what they purpose to do.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I am still waiting for people to justify having it. If someone actually comes up with a reasonable justification I will work on justifying getting rid of it.

The federal government has the power to make laws, it therefore has the power to maintain a means of enforcing those laws.

Yes but our government cannot just decide to investigate you without probable cause. That is out of their authority and that is what they purpose to do.

And who pray tell should I depend on to protect my right of privacy in that situation?

 

[NYcarbineer]

The Obama administration is drawing up plans to give all U.S. spy agencies full access to a massive database that contains financial data on American citizens and others who bank in the country, according to a Treasury Department document seen by Reuters.

EXCLUSIVE - U.S. to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances | Reuters

Al Qaida operatives, Iranian spies, Russian spies, Hezbollah cells, etc, etc, etc.......are all funded through domestic banking accounts.

So they need to have access EVERY American's information, without probable cause?

Well you could petition the Court to intervene on constitutional grounds to stop such actions,

but then you'd be depending on the government, which people like Windbag say is not necessary.

 

[bucs90]

Bucs, you're dumber than I thought. How much welfare did you start receiving before you started to feel so guilty that you had to change your political views?

Oh what a surprise, you again chasing me around the forum!!!

Did you see that I revived your thread from April 2012 asking people why they are so partisan, and why they cant simply entertain the idea of changing their views? You asked if people were so partisan that they couldnt even fathom opening their minds, and at least being civil to one another.

And yet....it seems you never took your own advice, as when I left the Republican Party just after that month, you turned from someone I often agreed with, to someone who chased me around the forum, attacking me with vulgar insults at every turn. All because I was NOT too partisan to change....like you asked us all to be in April 2012.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Bucs, you're dumber than I thought. How much welfare did you start receiving before you started to feel so guilty that you had to change your political views?

Oh what a surprise, you again chasing me around the forum!!!

Did you see that I revived your thread from April 2012 asking people why they are so partisan, and why they cant simply entertain the idea of changing their views? You asked if people were so partisan that they couldnt even fathom opening their minds, and at least being civil to one another.

And yet....it seems you never took your own advice, as when I left the Republican Party just after that month, you turned from someone I often agreed with, to someone who chased me around the forum, attacking me with vulgar insults at every turn. All because I was NOT too partisan to change....like you asked us all to be in April 2012.

Of course you revived a years old thread. Every troll on here does that. You're not special. And like ever other troll you took it out of context.

And I hate to burst your fragile little bubble but I dont have to follow you because your pathetic threads are at the top of the list. They are there, I respond accordingly.

 

[bucs90]

"Statism", I just read all the nonsense you posted in response on page 3 of this thread. To save the rest of people on here some grief, Im not gonna quote all the nonsense. You get into some really- how should I say it- Ron Paulish nonsense about rights being wrongs if someone doesnt like the right and wrongs being right in the views of islanders and...well, honestly, I couldnt make sense of much of that jibberish. I tried giving you an easy metaphor, with an island, 1,000 residents, and the inevitable system of governance that would arise in that situation. Did you not ever read Lord of the Flies? The only other example I could give is a football game with no coaches and no referees. Imagine that: The Patriots vs 49ers.....but no coaches, and no referees. How civil would that game be? Same with humanity. We need someone to be in charge for the sake of civility.

It boils down to this: When large groups of people get together, someone or some groups will always gain power and govern the others. That is true throughout human history. Hell, its even true in the animal kingdom. Just look at bees. Or ants.

Anyway, whether its a government, or religious tribe, or drug cartel....someone is going to be in charge.

I think our way is pretty good relative to everyone else's. Nothing will ever be perfect. And I've come to realize the person I'm debating on this has such a radical libertarian view, that we'll never have a normal debate, and you'll never, ever be happy in life as a result of your world view- because it flies in the face of human nature.

 

[bucs90]

Bucs, you're dumber than I thought. How much welfare did you start receiving before you started to feel so guilty that you had to change your political views?

Oh what a surprise, you again chasing me around the forum!!!

Did you see that I revived your thread from April 2012 asking people why they are so partisan, and why they cant simply entertain the idea of changing their views? You asked if people were so partisan that they couldnt even fathom opening their minds, and at least being civil to one another.

And yet....it seems you never took your own advice, as when I left the Republican Party just after that month, you turned from someone I often agreed with, to someone who chased me around the forum, attacking me with vulgar insults at every turn. All because I was NOT too partisan to change....like you asked us all to be in April 2012.

Of course you revived a years old thread. Every troll on here does that. You're not special. And like ever other troll you took it out of context.

And I hate to burst your fragile little bubble but I dont have to follow you because your pathetic threads are at the top of the list. They are there, I respond accordingly.

They are at the top of the list a lot because a lot of people respond to them. There is a reason a lot of people respond- because I post topics a lot of people want to discuss.

Ah, the good ole "troll" comment. Its ok. I know you are in over your head trying to debate me, so I wont take it personal.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Oh what a surprise, you again chasing me around the forum!!!

Did you see that I revived your thread from April 2012 asking people why they are so partisan, and why they cant simply entertain the idea of changing their views? You asked if people were so partisan that they couldnt even fathom opening their minds, and at least being civil to one another.

And yet....it seems you never took your own advice, as when I left the Republican Party just after that month, you turned from someone I often agreed with, to someone who chased me around the forum, attacking me with vulgar insults at every turn. All because I was NOT too partisan to change....like you asked us all to be in April 2012.

Of course you revived a years old thread. Every troll on here does that. You're not special. And like ever other troll you took it out of context.

And I hate to burst your fragile little bubble but I dont have to follow you because your pathetic threads are at the top of the list. They are there, I respond accordingly.

They are at the top of the list a lot because a lot of people respond to them. There is a reason a lot of people respond- because I post topics a lot of people want to discuss.

Ah, the good ole "troll" comment. Its ok. I know you are in over your head trying to debate me, so I wont take it personal.

Lol

They want to discuss it eh? There is nothing to discuss beyond your class division nonsense.

More like they want to mock you. Look at the context of the responses you got. It's this way in every troll thread.

 

[bucs90]

Of course you revived a years old thread. Every troll on here does that. You're not special. And like ever other troll you took it out of context.

And I hate to burst your fragile little bubble but I dont have to follow you because your pathetic threads are at the top of the list. They are there, I respond accordingly.

They are at the top of the list a lot because a lot of people respond to them. There is a reason a lot of people respond- because I post topics a lot of people want to discuss.

Ah, the good ole "troll" comment. Its ok. I know you are in over your head trying to debate me, so I wont take it personal.

Lol

They want to discuss it eh? There is nothing to discuss beyond your class division nonsense.

More like they want to mock you. Look at the context of the responses you got. It's this way in every troll thread.

I am to the road runner,
As you are to the coyote!

I get an awful lot of thanks and reps to just be getting mocked. Dont be butt hurt just because a former right winger finally saw the bullshit that the RW is being fed. And guess what- thousands more are seeing that every month.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

You know Bucs had your positions changed over time some latitude could be given but we both know that isn't what happened. Your positions never actually changed...your desire to hide the real you did. NO ONE wakes up one morning and suddenly does a 180 on all their core beliefs. You've fooled no one.

You've been a good puppet for the left since you came out but thats about it.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Bucs has the classic Marxist worldview: man is evil and government is the only source of goodness

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

They are at the top of the list a lot because a lot of people respond to them. There is a reason a lot of people respond- because I post topics a lot of people want to discuss.

Ah, the good ole "troll" comment. Its ok. I know you are in over your head trying to debate me, so I wont take it personal.

Lol

They want to discuss it eh? There is nothing to discuss beyond your class division nonsense.

More like they want to mock you. Look at the context of the responses you got. It's this way in every troll thread.

I am to the road runner,
As you are to the coyote!

I get an awful lot of thanks and reps to just be getting mocked. Dont be butt hurt just because a former right winger finally saw the bullshit that the RW is being fed. And guess what- thousands more are seeing that every month.

Rep from the left only shows their appreciation for your shallowness. Cartoon references aside you are a joke to most serious posters.

 

[bucs90]

You know Bucs had your positions changed over time some latitude could be given but we both know that isn't what happened. Your positions never actually changed...your desire to hide the real you did. NO ONE wakes up one morning and suddenly does a 180 on all their core beliefs. You've fooled no one.

You've been a good puppet for the left since you came out but thats about it.

You're right. My positions didnt change. I have always been, and still am:

- Pro police
- Pro military
- Pro animals
- Indifferent to gay marriage and abortion
- Believe weed should be legal
- Pro closed borders, but anti-deportation
- Pro Gun

Yep. All those views I've always had, and still have. It was the right wing turning on cops, firemen and teachers that broke it. Then, they had to go looney tune on the gay marriage and rape topics, KEEP being hypocrites on the weed issue (which I've never smoked). And they've gone on a full rampage to demonize all government employees- regardless if those employees do a crucial role, or wasteful role.

And of course, classics like the South Carolina House Republican who last week said "Its good politics to oppose the black guy in the White House".

I could go on and on about the stupid people and stupid shit the right wing has been associated with over the past year, in particular at the state and local levels, but for the sake of a shorter response I wont.

You're right. I didnt change at all. The right wing did, and I thank myself everyday for telling the GOP and the far right to go fuck themselves.

 

[OKTexas]

The federal government has the power to make laws, it therefore has the power to maintain a means of enforcing those laws.

Explain where they get the authority to pass laws dealing with crimes other than those enumerated in the Constitution.

That would be the Necessary and Proper Clause

"can any thing be more absurd, more arrogant, or more pernicious to the peace of Society, than for self created bodies, forming themselves into permanent Censors, and under the shade of Night in a conclave, resolving that acts of Congress which have undergone the most deliberate, and solemn discussion by the Representatives of the people, chosen for the express purpose, and bringing with them from the different parts of the Union the sense of their Constituents, endeavouring as far as the nature of the thing will admit, to form that will into Laws for the government of the whole; I say, under these circumstances, for a self created, permanent body, (for no one denies the right of the people to meet occasionally, to petition for, or to remonstrate against, any Act of the Legislature &ca) to declare that this act is unconstitutional, and that act is pregnant of mischief; and that all who vote contrary to their dogmas are actuated by selfish motives, or under foreign influence; nay in plain terms are traiters to their Country, is such a stretch of arrogant presumption as is not to be reconciled with laudable motives: especially when we see the same set of men endeavouring to destroy all confidence in the Administration, by arraigning all its acts, without knowing on what ground, or with what information it proceeds and this without regard to decency or truth."

-- George Washington; from letter to Burges Ball (Sept. 25, 1794)

The necessary and proper clause only applies to enacting enumerated powers, nothing else. Care to try again.

 

[Agit8r]

Rights exist despite the government, entitlements exist because of the government, why is that so hard to comprehend?

So, would classify property as a right or an entitlement. or does it depend on the situation?

 

[bucs90]

Explain where they get the authority to pass laws dealing with crimes other than those enumerated in the Constitution.

That would be the Necessary and Proper Clause

"can any thing be more absurd, more arrogant, or more pernicious to the peace of Society, than for self created bodies, forming themselves into permanent Censors, and under the shade of Night in a conclave, resolving that acts of Congress which have undergone the most deliberate, and solemn discussion by the Representatives of the people, chosen for the express purpose, and bringing with them from the different parts of the Union the sense of their Constituents, endeavouring as far as the nature of the thing will admit, to form that will into Laws for the government of the whole; I say, under these circumstances, for a self created, permanent body, (for no one denies the right of the people to meet occasionally, to petition for, or to remonstrate against, any Act of the Legislature &ca) to declare that this act is unconstitutional, and that act is pregnant of mischief; and that all who vote contrary to their dogmas are actuated by selfish motives, or under foreign influence; nay in plain terms are traiters to their Country, is such a stretch of arrogant presumption as is not to be reconciled with laudable motives: especially when we see the same set of men endeavouring to destroy all confidence in the Administration, by arraigning all its acts, without knowing on what ground, or with what information it proceeds and this without regard to decency or truth."

-- George Washington; from letter to Burges Ball (Sept. 25, 1794)

The necessary and proper clause only applies to enacting enumerated powers, nothing else. Care to try again.

So you'd support abolishing the FBI????

You do know the FBI is the lead agency on almost all child kidnapping cases, since most state and local PD's dont have the manpower or budget to do a nationwide manhunt?

But screw the kids, right? The enumerated powers dont allow for an FBI.

OH, the FBI also does almost all cases of identity theft, since they cross state lines. Again...those state and city PD's dont have the manpower or funding to send detectives from California to Florida to Jersey and Illinois to hunt down identity fraud thieves. And good luck trying to get cops in, say, Florida, to use their resources to do work on behalf of a victim in California.

But hey, we have enumerated powers to care about. Abolish the FBI, right?

 

[Agit8r]

Explain where they get the authority to pass laws dealing with crimes other than those enumerated in the Constitution.

That would be the Necessary and Proper Clause

"can any thing be more absurd, more arrogant, or more pernicious to the peace of Society, than for self created bodies, forming themselves into permanent Censors, and under the shade of Night in a conclave, resolving that acts of Congress which have undergone the most deliberate, and solemn discussion by the Representatives of the people, chosen for the express purpose, and bringing with them from the different parts of the Union the sense of their Constituents, endeavouring as far as the nature of the thing will admit, to form that will into Laws for the government of the whole; I say, under these circumstances, for a self created, permanent body, (for no one denies the right of the people to meet occasionally, to petition for, or to remonstrate against, any Act of the Legislature &ca) to declare that this act is unconstitutional, and that act is pregnant of mischief; and that all who vote contrary to their dogmas are actuated by selfish motives, or under foreign influence; nay in plain terms are traiters to their Country, is such a stretch of arrogant presumption as is not to be reconciled with laudable motives: especially when we see the same set of men endeavouring to destroy all confidence in the Administration, by arraigning all its acts, without knowing on what ground, or with what information it proceeds and this without regard to decency or truth."

-- George Washington; from letter to Burges Ball (Sept. 25, 1794)

The necessary and proper clause only applies to enacting enumerated powers, nothing else. Care to try again.

nonsense.

"Had the convention attempted a positive enumeration of the powers necessary and proper for carrying their other powers into effect, the attempt would have involved a complete digest of laws on every subject to which the Constitution relates; accommodated too, not only to the existing state of things, but to all the possible changes which futurity may produce; for in every new application of a general power, the particular powers, which are the means of attaining the object of the general power, must always necessarily vary with that object, and be often properly varied whilst the object remains the same."
-- from 'Federalist #44'

The Federalist #44

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

The right didnt change Bucs. We oppose obama just like we did Clinton or Pelosi. You are right that a couple righties said some dumb things about rape and the like and for the most part those people were defeated or marginalized. Every election envolves nasty rhetoric. Nothing new has happened. And your constant whining about cops and firemen is old hat. Just as many dem governors and mayors have made the same cuts. As to govt employees yeah, the govt is bloated to the point of bankrupting us.....fuck em.

Cry more fraud boy

 

[Agit8r]

By the way, before you start commenting about Biblical times and what did, or did not, exist I would suggest you read Leviticus. There were plenty of rights that were protected under the system of laws that God set up, which is why Samuel argued against Israel having a king in 2 Samuel 8. If you read that you will see he is essentially the same points you are about kings.

When everyone did what was right in his own eyes, and occasionally burned their daughters because they won a battle?