How To Save American Lives

[Saigon]

Amidst all of the screes of debate about gun control, I've noticed a few very wild claims about gun laws in other countries, so I thought I'd post a few facts. THe UK changed laws in 1997, Australia in 1996.

Let's compare the US with the UK and Australia.

Gun homicides 2011, (rate per 100,000 people)

USA 9,471 (2.97)
UK 41 (0.07)
Australia 30 (0.14)

Total homicide rates:

USA 4.8 per 100,000
UK 1.2
Australia 1.0

Suicide rate:

USA 12 (per 100,000)
UK 11.8
Australia 9.7

Impact of the law changes:

UK
- The UK now has it's lowest homicide rates since 1983.
- Overall crime has fallen to the lowest level in 20 years
- The rates of assault and robbery remain slightly higher than in the US


Australia
- Suicide rates have fallen significantly with a clear link to legislation and buy-backs
- Homicide rates have been falling since 1999
- The % of homicides involving guns has fallen significantly
- Other forms of crime have not fallen significantly

I'd invite posters to particularly pay attention to the graphics in the three links....

Australian Institute of Criminology - Homicide statistics


Gun homicides and gun ownership listed by country | News | guardian.co.uk

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[zeke]

We must really be a bit of a mystery to you.
If you look at our history, we worship guns. Period.
We love guns so much, they are in our founding documents with a promise we can have them.
And we don't seem to mind if thousands of people are killed by guns each year who probably shouldn't have died from guns. Thise deaths are a cost we are willing to bear.

I don't see any change in overall attitudes towards guns in my lifetime. But thanks for your concern.

 

[kyzr]

That's a flawed study and bogus comparisons. The US has significant "gang" murders that the other countries do not have. If you exclude gang related murders to compare similar populations, that would be a more accurate comparison.

Then again, we already know from the 1994 gun ban that gun control does not work.

How about trying "nut control" and "violent video game" control? Its not the gun that kills, its the psychopath.

 

[zeke]

That's a flawed study and bogus comparisons. The US has significant "gang" murders that the other countries do not have. If you exclude gang related murders to compare similar populations, that would be a more accurate comparison.

Then again, we already know from the 1994 gun ban that gun control does not work.

How about trying "nut control" and "violent video game" control? Its not the gun that kills, its the psychopath.

No, why should we blame some other activity that promotes gun violence. If I am a video game player, I can't kill anyone with my game controller except for that bad guy on my screen. I have to get a real gun to do any real killing.

Quit blaming the video game and man up and admit that you could fuking care less how many Americans get killed by guns as long as you and I can get any gun we want.

Honesty first is a good idea.

 

[Saigon]

Kyzr -

The US has significant "gang" murders that the other countries do not have. If you exclude gang related murders to compare similar populations, that would be a more accurate comparison.

Both the UK and to a lesser extent Australia have significant gang problems. I'd agree the US is worse - but it is also worse because US gangs are armed. Why not disarm the gangs once and for all?

On these threads I have seen a lot of excuses for not looking at the problem or the statistics, but I don't find them terribly compelling reasons. Why not face fact?

 

[zeke]

Kyzr -

The US has significant "gang" murders that the other countries do not have. If you exclude gang related murders to compare similar populations, that would be a more accurate comparison.

Both the UK and to a lesser extent Australia have significant gang problems. I'd agree the US is worse - but it is also worse because US gangs are armed. Why not disarm the gangs once and for all?On these threads I have seen a lot of excuses for not looking at the problem or the statistics, but I don't find them terribly compelling reasons. Why not face fact?

Why disarm them. They generally are killing each other. With a few exceptions. And most of the gang bangers are not really what we call productive members of socitey. And they will most likely end up in jail or on some social program if they don't get shot. And we don't want to pay for them, either in jail or injured by a gun shot.

Nah, gang bangers have a right to protect themselves with a gun. We few that as thinning the herd of undesirables.

 

[Saigon]

Zeke -

I'd disarm gangs before they turns parts of major cities into no-go zones. Disarming gangs could help rejuvinate huge swathes or urban America, making neighbourhoods safe to live in, especially for low-income families.

There should not be parts of cities that people feel they can't walk down in daylight. I'm not saying diarming gangs alone will change that, but I bet a few gangs would look a lot less threatening if all they could get their hands on were knives.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Zeke -

I'd disarm gangs before they turns parts of major cities into no-go zones. Disarming gangs could help rejuvinate huge swathes or urban America, making neighbourhoods safe to live in, especially for low-income families.

There should not be parts of cities that people feel they can't walk down in daylight. I'm not saying diarming gangs alone will change that, but I bet a few gangs would look a lot less threatening if all they could get their hands on were knives.

Very good Saigon! I like the "Gov't Control of Everything Equals Safety and Security" theme that runs through most of your posts.

Don't let them know that Criminals don't obey Laws so they'll get guns regardless of whatever Law gets passed but hey, Americans are so dumb they'll believe anything the TV tells them.

 

[Old Rocks]

That's a flawed study and bogus comparisons. The US has significant "gang" murders that the other countries do not have. If you exclude gang related murders to compare similar populations, that would be a more accurate comparison.

Then again, we already know from the 1994 gun ban that gun control does not work.

How about trying "nut control" and "violent video game" control? Its not the gun that kills, its the psychopath.

You are flat out wrong.

Causes of Death > Accidental Firearm

In 2000, 174 children (0-18) in the United States died from unintentional firearm-related injuries. Unintentional injuries are usually caused when children play with guns or are hunting.

Unintentional injuries from firearms represent less than two percent of all firearm deaths in the U.S. But of this two percent, children and adolescents are involved in 55% of these deaths. The majority of the injuries occur to children playing with or showing the weapons to friends. The easy availability of firearms is believed to be the number one risk factor for unintentional firearm deaths.

Only if you consider the parents that leave guns where their children can find them psychopaths. I consider them guilty of negligent homocide, and would see them punished under that law.

And, obviously, guns do kill. The children involved were not intending to kill themselves or others. They were just playing with something that should never been available to them.

 

[zeke]

Zeke -

I'd disarm gangs before they turns parts of major cities into no-go zones. Disarming gangs could help rejuvinate huge swathes or urban America, making neighbourhoods safe to live in, especially for low-income families.

There should not be parts of cities that people feel they can't walk down in daylight. I'm not saying diarming gangs alone will change that, but I bet a few gangs would look a lot less threatening if all they could get their hands on were knives.

To late. Already got areas of our cities you don't want to visit. And we have no money to do any rejuvantion of our cities.

I think you as a foreigner have far to high of an opinion of us Americans and of what we represent here in the USA. We have seriously lowered our expectations. You should to.

You ever follow our Congress? We the people are just as dysfunctional.

And yes I understand that the world would much rather see us as a force for good, common sense solutions to problems, but we are done with that shit.

 

[Old Rocks]

Zeke -

I'd disarm gangs before they turns parts of major cities into no-go zones. Disarming gangs could help rejuvinate huge swathes or urban America, making neighbourhoods safe to live in, especially for low-income families.

There should not be parts of cities that people feel they can't walk down in daylight. I'm not saying diarming gangs alone will change that, but I bet a few gangs would look a lot less threatening if all they could get their hands on were knives.

Very good Saigon! I like the "Gov't Control of Everything Equals Safety and Security" theme that runs through most of your posts.

Don't let them know that Criminals don't obey Laws so they'll get guns regardless of whatever Law gets passed but hey, Americans are so dumb they'll believe anything the TV tells them.

It is not the criminals that commit the horrific crimes. It is the crazies that the NRA, and people like you, give easy access to guns. And how do criminals get guns? They purchase them from people like you, or steal them because you do not have them stored securely. Were guns just less available, that would disarm a great many criminals.

 

[Old Rocks]

Missouri posted on the forum the ease with which he bought the equivelant of an AR-15 in a Wal-Mart parking lot, no questions asked. That is exactly how criminals are armed. As well as crazies.

 

[The Breeze]

Look at gun deaths by race to get a better picture as to whats happening.

 

[Old Rocks]

What race were they at Sandy Hook?

 

[Saigon]

Don't let them know that Criminals don't obey Laws so they'll get guns regardless of whatever Law gets passed but hey, Americans are so dumb they'll believe anything the TV tells them.

From what I hear on this board, it's not the government that controls South Chicago - it's gangs.

Disarm the gangs, and give people back their neighbourhood.

 

[Saigon]

To late. Already got areas of our cities you don't want to visit. And we have no money to do any rejuvantion of our cities.

I think you as a foreigner have far to high of an opinion of us Americans and of what we represent here in the USA. We have seriously lowered our expectations. You should to.

You ever follow our Congress? We the people are just as dysfunctional.

And yes I understand that the world would much rather see us as a force for good, common sense solutions to problems, but we are done with that shit.

Fair points there, Zeke, but I do believe Americans are strong enough and can unite over an issue like guns and gangs.

A lot of people out there would like to see guns and gangs and drugs off the streets that their children play in and walk to school on, and maybe a law change would start to change the balance of power away from gangs and towards normal families.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

How To Save American Lives

Avoiding Wars of CHOICE (AFTER doling-out tax-cuts) would be another option.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETqX3DRtZtU]60 Minutes: George W. Bush Sought to -Find A Way- to Invade Iraq - YouTube[/ame]
*
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-D1jCZ31Uw]EXPOSED: Bush Planned on Invading Iraq Before 9/11-Part 2 - YouTube[/ame]​

 

[NoNukes]

That's a flawed study and bogus comparisons. The US has significant "gang" murders that the other countries do not have. If you exclude gang related murders to compare similar populations, that would be a more accurate comparison.

Then again, we already know from the 1994 gun ban that gun control does not work.

How about trying "nut control" and "violent video game" control? Its not the gun that kills, its the psychopath.

If the other countries do not have gang related murders, why do you think this is? They do have gangs.

 

[zeke]

To late. Already got areas of our cities you don't want to visit. And we have no money to do any rejuvantion of our cities.

I think you as a foreigner have far to high of an opinion of us Americans and of what we represent here in the USA. We have seriously lowered our expectations. You should to.

You ever follow our Congress? We the people are just as dysfunctional.

And yes I understand that the world would much rather see us as a force for good, common sense solutions to problems, but we are done with that shit.

Fair points there, Zeke, but I do believe Americans are strong enough and can unite over an issue like guns and gangs.

A lot of people out there would like to see guns and gangs and drugs off the streets that their children play in and walk to school on, and maybe a law change would start to change the balance of power away from gangs and towards normal families.

But what do you base your belief in Americans on? It can't be our willingness to solve the tough problems we face. Becaue we don't deal with those. We punt.

And I agree a lot of people would like to see gun laws and availablilty of guns change.

However, you need to re read the first post I made.

We are gun crazy in this country. Our identiy is based on using guns to solve problems.
Always been that way and I don't believe it will change.

We have people on here who are willing to die for their right to own any gun they want in any quantity they want. Nothing will change their mind. And there are a lot of them with big mouths and willing to put their money where their mouth is. And that is in the hands of politicians that will do nothing about gun control.

It's just the way we are. We are scared a lot of the time. We need to be able to shoot who we want when we want for any reason we want. As long as they are on our property or threatening our property, we want to be able to shoot them. Whoever "them" is.
Sometimes we shoot the wrong person. But hey, everybody makes mistakes.

Did you read about the cop in Texas that shot 41 times before he killed the guy? The guy he shot was guilty of running from the police. 41 times, reloaded twice. Now if that cop was that scared, you can imagine what the rest of us must fear.

 

[Saigon]

Zeke-

I totally agree with you. I read the comments from gun supporters here and I just don't understand what they are talking about at all. I don't see the American government as a threat and I can't imagine why anyone would. I can't believe people would rather live in a country with 5,000 homicides a year and just accept that as the cost of "freedom". People in safer countries enjoy much greater freedoms than those people will ever know.

But I also think cultures can change, and right now there seems to be a bit of a sea change in America. It's like people have started to say that "Ok, that's enough now" and stand up to the NRA and the extremists. It can't happen fast enough.