How Zionism Corrupts Judaism

[Lipush]

The main point of this thread...

Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism
Judaism is a religion
Therefore, Zionism has nothing to do with religion​

Since you're not Jewish or Zionist, you cannot really know about what's corrupting Judaism.

Ahm just sayin'.

 

[Daniyel]

Well, Its more of the your personal contradictory.
However regardless of politics - Judaism (Orthodox, Reforms, Conservatives) all believe Judaism to be encircled about Zion - therefore the term - Zionism, which has stand later for the secular Jews, something very new among Jews to be called "Modern Zionism" - the origins of Zionism started with the promise of God to Abraham, all across the Old Testament.
So you might say today Zionism is differently contradicted than it should, or its association to Judaism is bad for Judaism, or maybe that its all but a bunch of none sense because you are not following Judaism, one way or the other you won't be able to change the very first ideologies of Judaism, the promised land.
If its politics or law we can always debate on that, you can also start up a new religion just like Neturei Karta did and claim you are a follower of Judaism that is against Zionism, fair enough - we can always debate that, but what we cannot change is the simplicity of facts.
Judaism is half about Zionism(Religiously - commandments to God) and half about social commandments(to one another) those are the very basic of ten commandments (out of 613 commandments total) - Open the bible at home and read the sources yourself, not some goofy website, you'll find that the bigger majority of commandments are only valid in Israel.
I Can also tell you more than that, about prophecies, but I guess we should keep it for another day.

I'm confused. Are you saying that there are is a Judaism Light for Jews in Brooklyn,, but Jews who call Israel home are somehow the ONLY ones to interpret or follow the MAJORITY of commandments in the Torah?

That's news to me. And I taught Sunday School for a bit in the 80s...

Not exactly, this is a very complex issue, here is one article that summaries it's best.

The question of whether one should make Aliyah is a complex one and depends to some extent on one’s Hashkafah (perspective) regarding Medinat Yisrael specifically and Jewish nationalism in general. There are special circumstances to be considered, as even the Pitchei Teshuvah and Sedei Chemed cite authorities who rule that one is not obligated to move to Israel if he is able to earn a living outside of Israel but is not able to do so in Israel. They cite the Talmud's rule (Shabbat 118a), “Aseih Shabatecha Chol VeAl Yitztareich LaBeriyot” (it is better to eat weekday food on Shabbat than to be reliant on charity) as support for this assertion.

Nonetheless, we cannot be complacent regarding our decisions concerning the Mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. Indeed, Chazal (Ketubot 110b-112b) greatly extol the Mitzvah of living in Israel. Moreover, Chazal (Ketubot 110b, codified by the Shulchan Aruch E.H. 75:1) view one spouse’s refusal to perform this Mitzvah as potential grounds for divorce and even permit asking a non-Jew to write on Shabbat to facilitate fulfillment of this Mitzvah (Gittin 8b, quoted by the Rambam Hilchot Shabbat 6:11). Rav Aharon Lichtenstein (in a personal conversation) frames the issue succinctly: Just as a Jew would find it painful to live without Kedushat HaZeman, holiness of time (such as Shabbat and Yom Tov), a Jew should find it painful to live without Kedushat Makom, holiness of space - the land of Israel.

I know it does sound very confusing but in generally many commandments relay on one another including those that can only be practiced in Israel while many sources go by different authorities (local authorities that usually follow one older source)
bottom line is that in our time it is (if there is no real difficulty) a must to settle in Israel by the great majority of Jews, speaking in religious levels, I don't think I'm able to provide you a very decisive answer thou because so far it's a very changing reality, Jews didn't bothered with this question 70 years ago, and what happened in Face this year has driven Jews to leave France(their homeland) and to move to Israel, I hope it helps.

The question of Aliyah is a rapidly changing concept. It is best based on DESIRE to fulfill that obligation rather than a commandment. Aliyah TODAY could be interpreted as a commitment to PRESERVE Israel -- rather than actually reside there. And Talmudic references are somewhat tainted by the CONDITIONS of the world at the time the opinions are written.

I have no doubt that such discussions exist in Talmud and other opinions. BUT -- I worry that they are based on fulfillment of THEOCRATIC ideals of organizing Jewry. And that is not a mission that the majority of Jews outside of Israel might be interested in.. Even WITHIN Israel for that matter..

Besides -- who would be left to run the day to day nefarious operations of WorldWide Zionism --- if all Jews decided to crowd into the HolyLand? Why TV networks, Hollywood productions, and the US Congress and libraries worldwide would be left unmonitored and uncontrolled..

The Talmud was written around 200-500 CE and is studied until our times, like you said this is a very changing atmosphere regarding our times.
However, regardless of the sources all is bound to the 'D'Oraita' (Aramic term "of Torah") which explains the commands clearly, The Talmud is discussions about the Mishna (The unwritten Torah) and Rabbis up until now (the local authority are bound to that) that have studied those their entire life write the Halacha (law) based on the wisest Rabbi of their generations, answer to certain question are often turn to them regarding the obligations and conditions, that's pretty much of a pyramid.
The Torah, Mishna,and Talmud speaks clearly not only about the need to go and settle in Israel but also about living among non Jews ("Goyim") with dozens of conditions and ties, only those studied and born to can truly understand and still fewer could answer.
This is not about ideology, the Torah is very clear on the commandments where they all split into do and don't - until the end of time.

To the point -- Do you believe it is a Jewish OBLIGATION to run a modern "State of Israel" as more of a fundamental Theocracy than an open Western style of government? And if not -- how are these commandments supposed to be fulfilled?

That's a great question, I think that technically up until the the Messiah would come - we(Jews) must do what Jews always did in the past, gather and support each other, non religious and religious at once - this is the ground condition, which is also how Jews lived in the diaspora, Israel is just a larger community.
There is no way to fulfill all commandments without having a religious rule that only the Yiddish Rastaman could bring(something lost in the past) which is why we must look for the better option, having an open state is one thing, western is the other, as much as America require all applicants for citizenship to "be an American" - there is no problem at all accepting everyone into the state of Israel, that wouldn't seek to ruin it, simply to require the "be an Israeli" - its actually more promising for religious state AND Open Western state - there is absolutely no problem that the fireman or bus driver for instance would be a Mohammad or Christopher - its even better for religious Jews, the only reason you don't see this happening is because it already does.
What I'm trying to say is that both works perfectly together, which is why Jews really like it America by the way, it is a Jewish obligation to run a liberal JEWISH state, for all ISRAELIS(IMHO) until the Messiah would come and take control. [hopefully in the peaceful way]
Its little hard for me to express it in English, I hope you understood me well.

 

[Lipush]

Judaism is 50% Zionism...

Not according to the Torah.

According to the Three Oaths, Jews don't get their country until God comes back down to earth. That's why your orthodox Jews have such a hard time accepting the state of Israel.

That's only half correct. 90% of the Orthodox Jews don't approve Israel because Israel is not governeted by the religious laws. Israel is not a Halacha state, that is why in the past there were so many orthodox against it. Those who believe Israel should not exist are maybe 10% of the orthodox in Jerusalem and Bnei Brak nowdays. Some of them are not even Israelis.

So again, please get some facts straight.

 

[flacaltenn]

Judaism is 50% Zionism...

Not according to the Torah.

According to the Three Oaths, Jews don't get their country until God comes back down to earth. That's why your orthodox Jews have such a hard time accepting the state of Israel.

That's only half correct. 90% of the Orthodox Jews don't approve Israel because Israel is not governeted by the religious laws. Israel is not a Halacha state, that is why in the past there were so many orthodox against it. Those who believe Israel should not exist are maybe 10% of the orthodox in Jerusalem and Bnei Brak nowdays. Some of them are not even Israelis.

So again, please get some facts straight.

However, there was no reluctance on the part of Orthodox Jews in America to support the INITIAL Zionist cause. Back in the 30s and 50s. I'm sure that you are correct about the situation in Israel. As that is part of the local Israeli political debate. Support for the safety of Israel is (as far as I can tell) pretty universal among Jews in the US with the exception of the far Left political antagonists that buy into boycotts and sanctions all the time. That IS what most non-jews see as Zionism today. With no appreciation of the Biblical covenants or commandments behind the "return to Zion"... And as far as public policy and relations goes, that's the definition of Zionism that currently matters in the larger world..

 

[Daniyel]

Judaism is 50% Zionism...

Not according to the Torah.

According to the Three Oaths, Jews don't get their country until God comes back down to earth. That's why your orthodox Jews have such a hard time accepting the state of Israel.

That's only half correct. 90% of the Orthodox Jews don't approve Israel because Israel is not governeted by the religious laws. Israel is not a Halacha state, that is why in the past there were so many orthodox against it. Those who believe Israel should not exist are maybe 10% of the orthodox in Jerusalem and Bnei Brak nowdays. Some of them are not even Israelis.

So again, please get some facts straight.

However, there was no reluctance on the part of Orthodox Jews in America to support the INITIAL Zionist cause. Back in the 30s and 50s. I'm sure that you are correct about the situation in Israel. As that is part of the local Israeli political debate. Support for the safety of Israel is (as far as I can tell) pretty universal among Jews in the US with the exception of the far Left political antagonists that buy into boycotts and sanctions all the time. That IS what most non-jews see as Zionism today. With no appreciation of the Biblical covenants or commandments behind the "return to Zion"... And as far as public policy and relations goes, that's the definition of Zionism that currently matters in the larger world..

True, Zionism by the "modern " ideology is synonym for light patriotism, also a fading value, what it means to those not sharing the religious ideas is the love for Israel and the dream of their ancestors to come to Israel.
To the rest of the world it won't mean much the wish of my grandfather.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

And the ultimate source is an islamocatholic Nazi

Daniel C. Maguire is a Professor of Moral Theology at Marquette University, a Catholic, Jesuit institution in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He is author of A Moral Creed for All Christians and The Horrors We Bless: Rethinking the Just-War Legacy [Fortress Press]). He can be reached at [email protected]

The Jesuits! It's always the Jesuits! I'm telling you! Is there anything these people are not up to in their quest to destroy the Jews and those who defend their right to their own homeland? That is what Zionism is all about. That the Jews have a home called Israel and her capitol is Jerusalem and she has a right to live in peace as any other nation does. I'm a Zionist and support Israel. As The Rabbi pointed out to be anti-zionist is to be anti-semitic. I would take it one step further and say to be an anti zionist is to be an enemy of God Almighty.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

The main point of this thread...

Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism
Judaism is a religion
Therefore, Zionism has nothing to do with religion​

To be anti Zionism is to be an enemy of God Almighty. It doesn't get any more connected than that, Billy.

 

[Humanity]

The main point of this thread...

Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism
Judaism is a religion
Therefore, Zionism has nothing to do with religion​

To be anti Zionism is to be an enemy of God Almighty. It doesn't get any more connected than that, Billy.

Oh please....

 

[Linkiloo]

Judaism reveres the Land of Israel and the Land promised by G-d to His people Israel. So does Zionism.
As usual you are wrong, because you pick to post about things you know nothing about.

Zionists use Judaism, like a cheap whore uses a tampon.

A cheap whore uses a tampon any differently than any other woman ? Mmmm....Methinks you need to try again.

 

[Linkiloo]

A German court found that anti-zionism and calling "death to zionists!" is an obvious form of anti-semitism, nothing else, and is punishable as hate speech. I agree.

So when I hear people use very floral language to condemn "zionism" and they fail to level that same criticism against much worse dispensations the world over, I call, bigot.

 

[Billo_Really]

A cheap whore uses a tampon any differently than any other woman ? Mmmm....Methinks you need to try again.

The point was, Zionism uses Judaism and a means to achieving a political goal. Once that goal is achieved, it will be discarded like the tampon.

 

[Billo_Really]

To be anti Zionism is to be an enemy of God Almighty. It doesn't get any more connected than that, Billy.

Zionists are assholes.

Are you calling God an asshole?

 

[Billo_Really]

True, Zionism by the "modern " ideology is synonym for light patriotism, also a fading value, what it means to those not sharing the religious ideas is the love for Israel and the dream of their ancestors to come to Israel.
To the rest of the world it won't mean much the wish of my grandfather.

Zionists are selfish, racist assholes, with absolutely no empathy for anyone but their own kind.

That is evident to anyone reading their posts in this (or any other) forum.

 

[Billo_Really]

And HaShem said unto Abraham- 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee....And Abraham took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came. "

So, Our ancestor was a Jew hater since clearly he was also the first Zionist, immigrated to the promised land.

I love how your logic works.

One Zionist quote, deserves another, my little conchita!

"They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination." - Ahad Ha'am​

Questions or comments?

 

[Billo_Really]

That's only half correct. 90% of the Orthodox Jews don't approve Israel because Israel is not governeted by the religious laws. Israel is not a Halacha state, that is why in the past there were so many orthodox against it. Those who believe Israel should not exist are maybe 10% of the orthodox in Jerusalem and Bnei Brak nowdays. Some of them are not even Israelis.

So again, please get some facts straight.

"Halacha state"?

That sounds so..........Baja California!

 

[Billo_Really]

A German court found that anti-zionism and calling "death to zionists!" is an obvious form of anti-semitism, nothing else, and is punishable as hate speech. I agree.

So when I hear people use very floral language to condemn "zionism" and they fail to level that same criticism against much worse dispensations the world over, I call, bigot.

Are you telling me I can't hate the Yankees, unless I hate the Cubs as well?

That doesn't make any sense.

 

[SAYIT]

How Zionism Corrupts Judaism Consortiumnews
Zionism is a cancer to this planet and has nothing to do with Judaism.
Zionists are Jew-haters.

"Judaism is also suffering from siege and occupation."

Nonsense. The religion is suffering no such thing.

"It demanded that Zionism be identified with and conflated with Judaism."

More nonsense. Zionists insist that Israel be a homeland for Jewish people ... not Judaism.

 

[Lipush]

That's only half correct. 90% of the Orthodox Jews don't approve Israel because Israel is not governeted by the religious laws. Israel is not a Halacha state, that is why in the past there were so many orthodox against it. Those who believe Israel should not exist are maybe 10% of the orthodox in Jerusalem and Bnei Brak nowdays. Some of them are not even Israelis.

So again, please get some facts straight.

"Halacha state"?

That sounds so..........Baja California!

I see that response as evidence that you lost the argument, since you didn't bother to have a better discussion on my post. Thanks

 

[Lipush]

And HaShem said unto Abraham- 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee....And Abraham took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came. "

So, Our ancestor was a Jew hater since clearly he was also the first Zionist, immigrated to the promised land.

I love how your logic works.

One Zionist quote, deserves another, my little conchita!

"They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination." - Ahad Ha'am​

Questions or comments?

Ah, yes. With all due respect to great leading characters, I'm more in the line of Jabotinsky

 

[Billo_Really]

Ah, yes. With all due respect to great leading characters, I'm more in the line of Jabotinsky

I've had Stolli's and Absolut, but never that one.