Humanitarian Relocation?

[Coyote]

I see a massive double standard in removing all Judaic people from Arab mandated areas but insisting Arab Muslims be allowed to stay in Judaic mandated areas.

The concept wreaks of prejudice, racism and bigotry.

Let's clarify this. There is a difference between settlements and "all Judaic people".

Wrong

The mandated area OPEN to the creation of a national Jewish homeland include EVERYTHING west of the Jordan.

Check the Jordan Memorandum of the Mandate period

The mandate was not law, nor was it an agreement or any legal promises to either the Jews or the Arabs.

Nonsense

The mandate was an internationally agreed legal settlement for the dispersal of Ottoman holdings.

Nope.

 

[Coyote]

One thing you have not addressed is Israel's confiscation of land through the absentee landowner laws - land which was taken by the state and reserved for Jewish settlement only.

Land lost during war should be compensated monetarily, imo, if return is not an option. (And its not at this point.) There are nearly a million Jews who should be compensated as well.

The land was deliberately stolen through legislative actions - I think that the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance there. What million Jews? Do you mean the ones expelled form Arab countries? If so, that is not the fault of the Palestinians but a seperate issue.

But the newer ones, the ones created out of military outposts in occupied territory and given to Jewish settlers?

Sure. But first let's address two things:

1. What makes it "Palestinian land" and not "Jewish land" or "Israeli land"?

2. Why can't Jews live in the eventual State of Palestine?

You have two seperate issues.

1. I seriously doubt military outposts in Occupied Territory were "bought' - if you can show they were, I'll back down.

2. Why can't they? I have no issue there.

NO LAND WAS STOLEN

The Zionists were buying land peacefully from willing Arab sellers.

Why the constant false claims ?

Excuse me while I laugh hysterically - then, review the Absentee Land Owner laws.

 

[Coyote]

The debate is getting convoluted, and I want to clarify my thinking rather than just "reacting" to being bitten on the flanks. I think this is really a good conversation.

The issue is humanitarian relocation (ie forced expulsions) - which I oppose. ABSOLUTELY.

Shusha brought up really valid points. If I oppose it, then how can I support expelling the settlements?

The only honest answer is that I can not. So I do not.

The fly in the ointment is this: what if it's on illegally taken land?

Several examples come to mind:
In an article I posted before, where settlers took a farmers land, planted vineyards (and I don't think this is just a one off example). There are also"illegal settlement" that Israeli politicians have eventually "recognized" or that they allow to remain (turning their head away) - that land isn't "bought" - it's "occupied".

In the same sense - we have the Beduoins who are being evicted from an area they have long occupied. I'm not certain of the legal standing of the area (ie who owned it, who bought it etc).

In those situations what is right and just? Seems to me those occupying should be given the first choice opportunity to buy the land from the legal owner, but if they don't want to sell it or they can't buy it then they should leave.

That would be fair.

 

[Shusha]

The land was deliberately stolen through legislative actions -

Individually owned, privately held land was lost due to the consequences of war. It sucks. Its tragic. It creates trauma. Its not fixable. At best, the individual land owners should be and must be compensated. Those on all sides.

Sovereignty is a completely different issue.

I seriously doubt military outposts in Occupied Territory were "bought' - if you can show they were, I'll back down.

Its not about "bought" land, or privately owned land. Its about what happens to the land in a territory which is not owned privately by anyone. Normally, that land belongs to the sovereign -- it becomes Crown land. (That's what we call it in Canada, anyway.)

THAT is the issue. What non-privately owned land is under the sovereignty of Israel and what non-privately owned land is under the sovereignty of "Palestine"?

Why can't they? I have no issue there.

Then the "settlements" (read: the returnments, or the places where Jews privately own the land) are NOT an issue and we don't need to talk about them. Kinda like we don't talk about Arab dominated places in Israel.

 

[Coyote]

The land was deliberately stolen through legislative actions -

Individually owned, privately held land was lost due to the consequences of war. It sucks. Its tragic. It creates trauma. Its not fixable. At best, the individual land owners should be and must be compensated. Those on all sides.

Sovereignty is a completely different issue.

I seriously doubt military outposts in Occupied Territory were "bought' - if you can show they were, I'll back down.

Its not about "bought" land, or privately owned land. Its about what happens to the land in a territory which is not owned privately by anyone. Normally, that land belongs to the sovereign -- it becomes Crown land. (That's what we call it in Canada, anyway.)

THAT is the issue. What non-privately owned land is under the sovereignty of Israel and what non-privately owned land is under the sovereignty of "Palestine"?

Why can't they? I have no issue there.

Then the "settlements" (read: the returnments, or the places where Jews privately own the land) are NOT an issue and we don't need to talk about them. Kinda like we don't talk about Arab dominated places in Israel.

IF they legally and privately own the land then it's not an issue.

But here is one question.

There are place where Jews were driven off (recent history not ancient) and returned. There are place where Palestinians were driven off and not allowed to return. There are places where Palestinian land was outright taken by so called settlers and I'm not going to call them returnments.

What is right and just?

 

[Boston1]

One thing you have not addressed is Israel's confiscation of land through the absentee landowner laws - land which was taken by the state and reserved for Jewish settlement only.

Land lost during war should be compensated monetarily, imo, if return is not an option. (And its not at this point.) There are nearly a million Jews who should be compensated as well.

The land was deliberately stolen through legislative actions - I think that the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance there. What million Jews? Do you mean the ones expelled form Arab countries? If so, that is not the fault of the Palestinians but a seperate issue.

But the newer ones, the ones created out of military outposts in occupied territory and given to Jewish settlers?

Sure. But first let's address two things:

1. What makes it "Palestinian land" and not "Jewish land" or "Israeli land"?

2. Why can't Jews live in the eventual State of Palestine?

You have two seperate issues.

1. I seriously doubt military outposts in Occupied Territory were "bought' - if you can show they were, I'll back down.

2. Why can't they? I have no issue there.

NO LAND WAS STOLEN

The Zionists were buying land peacefully from willing Arab sellers.

Why the constant false claims ?

Excuse me while I laugh hysterically - then, review the Absentee Land Owner laws.

Laugh all you want but the fact remains that Israel stole nothing. They were attacked and took a defensive stance. That stance included areas previously occupied by an invading force of Arab Muslims.

They were occupying land intended for the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

So once the occupier retreated the land was left under Israeli control.

Israel had been purchasing land peacefully from willing Arab sellers right up until the Arab Muslims decided to attack. At which point the Arabs lost and what they lost was land

So whats the problem

 

[Coyote]

One thing you have not addressed is Israel's confiscation of land through the absentee landowner laws - land which was taken by the state and reserved for Jewish settlement only.

Land lost during war should be compensated monetarily, imo, if return is not an option. (And its not at this point.) There are nearly a million Jews who should be compensated as well.

The land was deliberately stolen through legislative actions - I think that the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance there. What million Jews? Do you mean the ones expelled form Arab countries? If so, that is not the fault of the Palestinians but a seperate issue.

But the newer ones, the ones created out of military outposts in occupied territory and given to Jewish settlers?

Sure. But first let's address two things:

1. What makes it "Palestinian land" and not "Jewish land" or "Israeli land"?

2. Why can't Jews live in the eventual State of Palestine?

You have two seperate issues.

1. I seriously doubt military outposts in Occupied Territory were "bought' - if you can show they were, I'll back down.

2. Why can't they? I have no issue there.

NO LAND WAS STOLEN

The Zionists were buying land peacefully from willing Arab sellers.

Why the constant false claims ?

Excuse me while I laugh hysterically - then, review the Absentee Land Owner laws.

Laugh all you want but the fact remains that Israel stole nothing. They were attacked and took a defensive stance. That stance included areas previously occupied by an invading force of Arab Muslims.

They were occupying land intended for the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

So once the occupier retreated the land was left under Israeli control.

Israel had been purchasing land peacefully from willing Arab sellers right up until the Arab Muslims decided to attack. At which point the Arabs lost and what they lost was land

So whats the problem

We will disagree...you know this. Can we agree to disagree?

 

[Shusha]

There are places where Palestinian land was outright taken by so called settlers and I'm not going to call them returnments.

Show me an instance of this and I will address it. Be sure to outline clearly why you think it was "Palestinian land".

 

[Coyote]

There are places where Palestinian land was outright taken by so called settlers and I'm not going to call them returnments.

Show me an instance of this and I will address it. Be sure to outline clearly why you think it was "Palestinian land".

I gave you one instance, where the settlers stole land for a vineyard.

 

[Shusha]

There are places where Palestinian land was outright taken by so called settlers and I'm not going to call them returnments.

Show me an instance of this and I will address it. Be sure to outline clearly why you think it was "Palestinian land".

I gave you one instance, where the settlers stole land for a vineyard.

If this is the one instance I recall -- Israel sides with the private owners. So how is this "stealing" "Palestinian land"?

 

[Coyote]

There are places where Palestinian land was outright taken by so called settlers and I'm not going to call them returnments.

Show me an instance of this and I will address it. Be sure to outline clearly why you think it was "Palestinian land".

I gave you one instance, where the settlers stole land for a vineyard.

Remind me. It was privately owned land?

Apparently.

 

[Boston1]

Land lost during war should be compensated monetarily, imo, if return is not an option. (And its not at this point.) There are nearly a million Jews who should be compensated as well.

The land was deliberately stolen through legislative actions - I think that the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance there. What million Jews? Do you mean the ones expelled form Arab countries? If so, that is not the fault of the Palestinians but a seperate issue.

Sure. But first let's address two things:

1. What makes it "Palestinian land" and not "Jewish land" or "Israeli land"?

2. Why can't Jews live in the eventual State of Palestine?

You have two seperate issues.

1. I seriously doubt military outposts in Occupied Territory were "bought' - if you can show they were, I'll back down.

2. Why can't they? I have no issue there.

NO LAND WAS STOLEN

The Zionists were buying land peacefully from willing Arab sellers.

Why the constant false claims ?

Excuse me while I laugh hysterically - then, review the Absentee Land Owner laws.

Laugh all you want but the fact remains that Israel stole nothing. They were attacked and took a defensive stance. That stance included areas previously occupied by an invading force of Arab Muslims.

They were occupying land intended for the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

So once the occupier retreated the land was left under Israeli control.

Israel had been purchasing land peacefully from willing Arab sellers right up until the Arab Muslims decided to attack. At which point the Arabs lost and what they lost was land

So whats the problem

We will disagree...you know this. Can we agree to disagree?

Of course but that doesn't mean I understand WHY you believe what you do.

The facts seem extremely clear. The Zionists were BUYING land

The ARAB LEAGUE declared war

The Israeli's won and took up a defensive stance.

The Arabs attacked a few more times and lost every time resulting in Israel being in control of more land than was allotted to it.

So it gave the additional lands ( the Sinai ) back

It eventually also gave Gaza to the Arab Muslims,

Its NOT going to give the west bank area back and the only question is if the Arab Muslims in Israel are willing to live in peace or not.

If not then the question becomes, why should they be allowed to stay.

Bearing in mind that the Judaic people have been kicked out of most Arab countries why shouldn't the Arab Muslims be kicked out of Israel ?

 

[Coyote]

The land was deliberately stolen through legislative actions - I think that the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance there. What million Jews? Do you mean the ones expelled form Arab countries? If so, that is not the fault of the Palestinians but a seperate issue.


You have two seperate issues.

1. I seriously doubt military outposts in Occupied Territory were "bought' - if you can show they were, I'll back down.

2. Why can't they? I have no issue there.

NO LAND WAS STOLEN

The Zionists were buying land peacefully from willing Arab sellers.

Why the constant false claims ?

Excuse me while I laugh hysterically - then, review the Absentee Land Owner laws.

Laugh all you want but the fact remains that Israel stole nothing. They were attacked and took a defensive stance. That stance included areas previously occupied by an invading force of Arab Muslims.

They were occupying land intended for the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

So once the occupier retreated the land was left under Israeli control.

Israel had been purchasing land peacefully from willing Arab sellers right up until the Arab Muslims decided to attack. At which point the Arabs lost and what they lost was land

So whats the problem

We will disagree...you know this. Can we agree to disagree?

Of course but that doesn't mean I understand WHY you believe what you do.

The facts seem extremely clear. The Zionists were BUYING land

The ARAB LEAGUE declared war

The Israeli's won and took up a defensive stance.

The Arabs attacked a few more times and lost every time resulting in Israel being in control of more land than was allotted to it.

So it gave the additional lands ( the Sinai ) back

It eventually also gave Gaza to the Arab Muslims,

Its NOT going to give the west bank area back and the only question is if the Arab Muslims in Israel are willing to live in peace or not.

If not then the question becomes, why should they be allowed to stay.

Bearing in mind that the Judaic people have been kicked out of most Arab countries why shouldn't the Arab Muslims be kicked out of Israel ?

Confiscating land via "Absentee landowner" laws doesn't equal "buying".

I've given my reasons for my position

 

[Shusha]

There are places where Palestinian land was outright taken by so called settlers and I'm not going to call them returnments.

Show me an instance of this and I will address it. Be sure to outline clearly why you think it was "Palestinian land".

I gave you one instance, where the settlers stole land for a vineyard.

Remind me. It was privately owned land?

Apparently.

Yep. And in this particular case that you've brought up -- lo and behold -- Israel is supporting the private landowners. As they should.

Care to talk about the others, now?

 

[Coyote]

There are places where Palestinian land was outright taken by so called settlers and I'm not going to call them returnments.

Show me an instance of this and I will address it. Be sure to outline clearly why you think it was "Palestinian land".

I gave you one instance, where the settlers stole land for a vineyard.

Remind me. It was privately owned land?

Apparently.

Yep. And in this particular case that you've brought up -- lo and behold -- Israel is supporting the private landowners. As they should.

Care to talk about the others, now?

Well...except for the vineyards.

How about you show how they are all legally bought land?

 

[Boston1]

NO LAND WAS STOLEN

The Zionists were buying land peacefully from willing Arab sellers.

Why the constant false claims ?

Excuse me while I laugh hysterically - then, review the Absentee Land Owner laws.

Laugh all you want but the fact remains that Israel stole nothing. They were attacked and took a defensive stance. That stance included areas previously occupied by an invading force of Arab Muslims.

They were occupying land intended for the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

So once the occupier retreated the land was left under Israeli control.

Israel had been purchasing land peacefully from willing Arab sellers right up until the Arab Muslims decided to attack. At which point the Arabs lost and what they lost was land

So whats the problem

We will disagree...you know this. Can we agree to disagree?

Of course but that doesn't mean I understand WHY you believe what you do.

The facts seem extremely clear. The Zionists were BUYING land

The ARAB LEAGUE declared war

The Israeli's won and took up a defensive stance.

The Arabs attacked a few more times and lost every time resulting in Israel being in control of more land than was allotted to it.

So it gave the additional lands ( the Sinai ) back

It eventually also gave Gaza to the Arab Muslims,

Its NOT going to give the west bank area back and the only question is if the Arab Muslims in Israel are willing to live in peace or not.

If not then the question becomes, why should they be allowed to stay.

Bearing in mind that the Judaic people have been kicked out of most Arab countries why shouldn't the Arab Muslims be kicked out of Israel ?

Confiscating land via "Absentee landowner" laws doesn't equal "buying".

I've given my reasons for my position

WRONG

Land was not confiscated. Land was LOST to Arab agression. Previous to that land was being purchased. But the Arabs remaining coulnd' t handle Jewish neighbors so they assaulted them. AND LOST

What they lost was land. It wasn't stolen, It was lost in a war of aggression

 

[Coyote]

Excuse me while I laugh hysterically - then, review the Absentee Land Owner laws.

Laugh all you want but the fact remains that Israel stole nothing. They were attacked and took a defensive stance. That stance included areas previously occupied by an invading force of Arab Muslims.

They were occupying land intended for the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

So once the occupier retreated the land was left under Israeli control.

Israel had been purchasing land peacefully from willing Arab sellers right up until the Arab Muslims decided to attack. At which point the Arabs lost and what they lost was land

So whats the problem

We will disagree...you know this. Can we agree to disagree?

Of course but that doesn't mean I understand WHY you believe what you do.

The facts seem extremely clear. The Zionists were BUYING land

The ARAB LEAGUE declared war

The Israeli's won and took up a defensive stance.

The Arabs attacked a few more times and lost every time resulting in Israel being in control of more land than was allotted to it.

So it gave the additional lands ( the Sinai ) back

It eventually also gave Gaza to the Arab Muslims,

Its NOT going to give the west bank area back and the only question is if the Arab Muslims in Israel are willing to live in peace or not.

If not then the question becomes, why should they be allowed to stay.

Bearing in mind that the Judaic people have been kicked out of most Arab countries why shouldn't the Arab Muslims be kicked out of Israel ?

Confiscating land via "Absentee landowner" laws doesn't equal "buying".

I've given my reasons for my position

WRONG

Land was not confiscated. Land was LOST to Arab agression. Previous to that land was being purchased. But the Arabs remaining coulnd' t handle Jewish neighbors so they assaulted them. AND LOST

What they lost was land. It wasn't stolen, It was lost in a war of aggression

No. It was confiscated under cleverly designed "absentee landowner" laws.

 

[Coyote]

It's amazing. Some of you will support Israel no matter what it does. Israel can do no wrong - it's justified one way or another.

 

[Boston1]

Laugh all you want but the fact remains that Israel stole nothing. They were attacked and took a defensive stance. That stance included areas previously occupied by an invading force of Arab Muslims.

They were occupying land intended for the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

So once the occupier retreated the land was left under Israeli control.

Israel had been purchasing land peacefully from willing Arab sellers right up until the Arab Muslims decided to attack. At which point the Arabs lost and what they lost was land

So whats the problem

We will disagree...you know this. Can we agree to disagree?

Of course but that doesn't mean I understand WHY you believe what you do.

The facts seem extremely clear. The Zionists were BUYING land

The ARAB LEAGUE declared war

The Israeli's won and took up a defensive stance.

The Arabs attacked a few more times and lost every time resulting in Israel being in control of more land than was allotted to it.

So it gave the additional lands ( the Sinai ) back

It eventually also gave Gaza to the Arab Muslims,

Its NOT going to give the west bank area back and the only question is if the Arab Muslims in Israel are willing to live in peace or not.

If not then the question becomes, why should they be allowed to stay.

Bearing in mind that the Judaic people have been kicked out of most Arab countries why shouldn't the Arab Muslims be kicked out of Israel ?

Confiscating land via "Absentee landowner" laws doesn't equal "buying".

I've given my reasons for my position

WRONG

Land was not confiscated. Land was LOST to Arab agression. Previous to that land was being purchased. But the Arabs remaining coulnd' t handle Jewish neighbors so they assaulted them. AND LOST

What they lost was land. It wasn't stolen, It was lost in a war of aggression

No. It was confiscated under cleverly designed "absentee landowner" laws.

WRONG

When did any otehr country even bother with absentee land owner laws after some other country attacked and lost ?

Its nuts to think that Israel WOULDN"T find some way to allocate land it won in a defensive action.

Some will have to be awarded to the military for a defensive position but any remaining might as well be put to use for the public good.

So where do you come up with stole land ?

 

[Boston1]

It's amazing. Some of you will support Israel no matter what it does. Israel can do no wrong - it's justified one way or another.

Wrong.

I would criticize Israel in a flash for not employing the Geneva Conventions to the letter from the word go.