Hunters....you still think they don't want your guns too......banning lead ammo...

[Roadrunner]

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

California Condor - California Department of Fish and Wildlife
Fewer than 250 in the wild in 2014.

Still looking for number found dead with lead poisoning.

 

[martybegan]

How about you pony up the extra 300% cost of non lead bullets so hunters can afford to keep hunting?

300%? Not according to this.

Bullet Types

Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?

So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?

How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?

Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?

If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.

How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

California Condors and Lead

Ventana Wildlife Society believes that hunters and ranchers have a strong tradition of wildlife conservation ethics. We promote the use of non-lead ammunition because of the effect of lead on California Condors and other wildlife.

How does lead poisoning happen in condors and other scavenging birds anyway? Scavengers eat many different types of animals, some of which are shot with lead projectiles. Animals either left behind in the field, such as ground squirrels and coyotes, or animals shot and unable to be recovered, contain lead fragments left behind in the shot animal. Animals shot with shotgun pellets are also available to scavengers as well as waterfowl depending on where the shooting takes place. Condors and other wildlife often ingest large chunks of flesh and sometimes bone and cannot distinguish between a tiny lead fragment from a bullet versus a pebble for example. Once ingested, the digestive system interacts with the lead bullet which leaches the lead into the bloodstream of the animal that ingested it. Lead in blood rises dramatically after ingestion of a lead object and within days the animals feels the effects. Lead poisoning is an awful way to die because it paralyzes the digestive system often killing the animal slowly through starvation. If any of this is new to you or you are skeptical, please do your own research and start by reviewing the links, video, etc. at the bottom of this page.

The literature linking lead poisoning in condors to lead from spent ammunition is strong. In fact, we have contributed some of it. But what really convinces us is the direct evidence we have seen during our 15 years of managing the central California Condor population. As a recent example, a 10 year-old male condor (#318, Figure 1) died in November 2012 after ingesting a lead .22 caliber bullet, presumably while feeding on a carcass. The bird was found in San Benito County barely alive and unable to feed or use its legs to stand. Despite valiant efforts, veterinarians could not save him. Cause of death, through necropsy, was determined to be lead toxicosis. A radiograph showed multiple metal fragments and a bullet-shaped object in the digestive tract (Figure 2). The object was removed and determined to be a .22 caliber lead bullet (Figure 3).

The death of condor #318 is a huge loss for the central California population. This bird was a breeding male, the first at Pinnacles National Park in more than 100 years. With only a few breeding pairs established in the region, his loss leaves a void which might not be quickly filled. His surviving mate has left the breeding territory, and it is not clear if and when she will pair with another condor and breed again. The loss of even a small number of breeding pairs, and the offspring they produce, puts the entire population at risk.

We thank the many hunters who participated in our free non-lead ammunition program. We raised more than $50,000 in 2012 to support local hunters making the switch through this program, and we hope to raise more funds to continue in 2013. We greatly appreciate the 221 hunters who completed our online survey. For a summary report of the 2012 free non-lead ammunition program, including results of the survey, click here.

If it so important to you then I'm sure you would gladly contribute to a fund to cover the increased costs for hunters.

 

[Roadrunner]

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

I am sure I can google an estimate, as you could too.

I'm not the one messing with a 2nd amendment right. the people trying to do that are the ones who need to prove it.

There is no indication this is "messing with 2nd amendment rights".

It is about restricting use of a toxic metal that can be replaced by a non-toxic metal.

Deer I have shot with California compliant ammunition have been just as dead, and the gut pile did not poison any other animals.

You and Jeremiah can talk conspiracy, I have better things to do.

 

[martybegan]

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

California Condor - California Department of Fish and Wildlife
Fewer than 250 in the wild in 2014.

Still looking for number found dead with lead poisoning.

Here is there range. Why not just ban it in the range?

 

[martybegan]

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

I am sure I can google an estimate, as you could too.

I'm not the one messing with a 2nd amendment right. the people trying to do that are the ones who need to prove it.

There is no indication this is "messing with 2nd amendment rights".

It is about restricting use of a toxic metal that can be replaced by a non-toxic metal.

Deer I have shot with California compliant ammunition have been just as dead, and the gut pile did not poison any other animals.

You and Jeremiah can talk conspiracy, I have better things to do.

Its not conspiracy. They will find something wrong with the "compliant" ammo soon. And again, why should anyone comply if the feds are going to cooperate and make it easier to make the ammo?

If the Condor is that important, shouldn't that take precedence?

 

[Ravi]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

Nothing says "stick it to the man" like poisoning nature

Tell me how solid bullets sitting in soil, soil mind you that already probably has lead in it anyway, is "poisoning nature"

A bird cannot distinguish between lead shot and gravel.

A carrion eating bird does not just spit out the lead fragments.

There is a logical reason for the lead bans.

Lead has been out of most paint and fuels for decades.

Why?

Because lead can be highly toxic.

Paint was because kids were eating paint chips. In the case of gasoline it became aerosolized and deposited in a large, spread out manner.

Again, if people are so gung ho about this, they should also be lobbying the feds at the same time to allow hunters an easier transition. If not, they they are the gun grabbing idiots we say they are.

and we all know the next step is a total ban, because gun control freaks can't control themselves.

It is an easy transition. The law doesn't go into effect until 2019 EXCEPT on state owned land.

 

[Ravi]

300%? Not according to this.

Bullet Types

Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?

So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?

How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?

Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?

If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.

How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?

How about we find something you like to do and jack the price up a few hundred % "for the environment?"

Again, its easy to screw with other people's stuff.

I used to enjoy pooring toxic chemicals into the Florida aquifer but now I have to dispose of them properly. Oh, the horror!

Nice non-answer.

Proper disposal costs money. You pretended that I wouldn't be willing to spend a little to save more and were shown to be an ass.

 

[martybegan]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

Nothing says "stick it to the man" like poisoning nature

Tell me how solid bullets sitting in soil, soil mind you that already probably has lead in it anyway, is "poisoning nature"

A bird cannot distinguish between lead shot and gravel.

A carrion eating bird does not just spit out the lead fragments.

There is a logical reason for the lead bans.

Lead has been out of most paint and fuels for decades.

Why?

Because lead can be highly toxic.

Paint was because kids were eating paint chips. In the case of gasoline it became aerosolized and deposited in a large, spread out manner.

Again, if people are so gung ho about this, they should also be lobbying the feds at the same time to allow hunters an easier transition. If not, they they are the gun grabbing idiots we say they are.

and we all know the next step is a total ban, because gun control freaks can't control themselves.

It is an easy transition. The law doesn't go into effect until 2019 EXCEPT on state owned land.

And how much of hunting land is State owned?

 

[martybegan]

So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?

How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?

Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?

If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.

How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?

How about we find something you like to do and jack the price up a few hundred % "for the environment?"

Again, its easy to screw with other people's stuff.

I used to enjoy pooring toxic chemicals into the Florida aquifer but now I have to dispose of them properly. Oh, the horror!

Nice non-answer.

Proper disposal costs money. You pretended that I wouldn't be willing to spend a little to save more and were shown to be an ass.

even if we half the increase to 150%, that is not "a little more"

Again, its easy to be for something when it doesn't impact you directly.

"Eh, screw hunters, I don't like em anyway" The Ravi way.

 

[BlackSand]

The issue is being blown out of proportion ... The ban against lead bullets is in reference to hunting restrictions in designated areas.
Duck hunters have been using steel shot instead of lead for years under penalty of law for non-compliance.

It is not a ban against having lead bullets ... Just using them for hunting.
If a hunter will spend more than $1000 on a four wheeler, $100's on deer corn and constructing a deer stand, more money on camouflage clothing and firearms ... We can afford a little more for ammo.

.

 

[Ravi]

If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.

How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?

How about we find something you like to do and jack the price up a few hundred % "for the environment?"

Again, its easy to screw with other people's stuff.

I used to enjoy pooring toxic chemicals into the Florida aquifer but now I have to dispose of them properly. Oh, the horror!

Nice non-answer.

Proper disposal costs money. You pretended that I wouldn't be willing to spend a little to save more and were shown to be an ass.

even if we half the increase to 150%, that is not "a little more"

Again, its easy to be for something when it doesn't impact you directly.

"Eh, screw hunters, I don't like em anyway" The Ravi way.

The link I gave you showed it was no where near a 150% increase, let alone a 300% increase. Depending on what you are buying the cost will be the same or up to a 30% increase.

Now you've moved the goal posts like the moron you are. And I have no problem with hunting.

 

[Ravi]

Nothing says "stick it to the man" like poisoning nature

Tell me how solid bullets sitting in soil, soil mind you that already probably has lead in it anyway, is "poisoning nature"

A bird cannot distinguish between lead shot and gravel.

A carrion eating bird does not just spit out the lead fragments.

There is a logical reason for the lead bans.

Lead has been out of most paint and fuels for decades.

Why?

Because lead can be highly toxic.

Paint was because kids were eating paint chips. In the case of gasoline it became aerosolized and deposited in a large, spread out manner.

Again, if people are so gung ho about this, they should also be lobbying the feds at the same time to allow hunters an easier transition. If not, they they are the gun grabbing idiots we say they are.

and we all know the next step is a total ban, because gun control freaks can't control themselves.

It is an easy transition. The law doesn't go into effect until 2019 EXCEPT on state owned land.

And how much of hunting land is State owned?

1,000,000 acres. But I suppose a state can't regulate its property.

 

[Asclepias]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

Nothing says "stick it to the man" like poisoning nature

Tell me how solid bullets sitting in soil, soil mind you that already probably has lead in it anyway, is "poisoning nature"

Why would someone address such a stupid question when no one is talking about lead sitting in soil?

 

[Ravi]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

Nothing says "stick it to the man" like poisoning nature

Tell me how solid bullets sitting in soil, soil mind you that already probably has lead in it anyway, is "poisoning nature"

Why would someone address such a stupid question when no one is talking about lead sitting in soil?

He's frothing at the mouth without looking at the facts. Comical.

 

[ogibillm]

How about you pony up the extra 300% cost of non lead bullets so hunters can afford to keep hunting?

300%? Not according to this.

Bullet Types

Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?

So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?

How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?

Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?

If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.

How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

California Condors and Lead

Ventana Wildlife Society believes that hunters and ranchers have a strong tradition of wildlife conservation ethics. We promote the use of non-lead ammunition because of the effect of lead on California Condors and other wildlife.

How does lead poisoning happen in condors and other scavenging birds anyway? Scavengers eat many different types of animals, some of which are shot with lead projectiles. Animals either left behind in the field, such as ground squirrels and coyotes, or animals shot and unable to be recovered, contain lead fragments left behind in the shot animal. Animals shot with shotgun pellets are also available to scavengers as well as waterfowl depending on where the shooting takes place. Condors and other wildlife often ingest large chunks of flesh and sometimes bone and cannot distinguish between a tiny lead fragment from a bullet versus a pebble for example. Once ingested, the digestive system interacts with the lead bullet which leaches the lead into the bloodstream of the animal that ingested it. Lead in blood rises dramatically after ingestion of a lead object and within days the animals feels the effects. Lead poisoning is an awful way to die because it paralyzes the digestive system often killing the animal slowly through starvation. If any of this is new to you or you are skeptical, please do your own research and start by reviewing the links, video, etc. at the bottom of this page.

The literature linking lead poisoning in condors to lead from spent ammunition is strong. In fact, we have contributed some of it. But what really convinces us is the direct evidence we have seen during our 15 years of managing the central California Condor population. As a recent example, a 10 year-old male condor (#318, Figure 1) died in November 2012 after ingesting a lead .22 caliber bullet, presumably while feeding on a carcass. The bird was found in San Benito County barely alive and unable to feed or use its legs to stand. Despite valiant efforts, veterinarians could not save him. Cause of death, through necropsy, was determined to be lead toxicosis. A radiograph showed multiple metal fragments and a bullet-shaped object in the digestive tract (Figure 2). The object was removed and determined to be a .22 caliber lead bullet (Figure 3).

The death of condor #318 is a huge loss for the central California population. This bird was a breeding male, the first at Pinnacles National Park in more than 100 years. With only a few breeding pairs established in the region, his loss leaves a void which might not be quickly filled. His surviving mate has left the breeding territory, and it is not clear if and when she will pair with another condor and breed again. The loss of even a small number of breeding pairs, and the offspring they produce, puts the entire population at risk.

We thank the many hunters who participated in our free non-lead ammunition program. We raised more than $50,000 in 2012 to support local hunters making the switch through this program, and we hope to raise more funds to continue in 2013. We greatly appreciate the 221 hunters who completed our online survey. For a summary report of the 2012 free non-lead ammunition program, including results of the survey, click here.

If it so important to you then I'm sure you would gladly contribute to a fund to cover the increased costs for hunters.

You're saying hunters can't or won't be responsible without more subsidies?

 

[BlackSand]

You're saying hunters can't or won't be responsible without more subsidies?

...

.

 

[martybegan]

How about we find something you like to do and jack the price up a few hundred % "for the environment?"

Again, its easy to screw with other people's stuff.

I used to enjoy pooring toxic chemicals into the Florida aquifer but now I have to dispose of them properly. Oh, the horror!

Nice non-answer.

Proper disposal costs money. You pretended that I wouldn't be willing to spend a little to save more and were shown to be an ass.

even if we half the increase to 150%, that is not "a little more"

Again, its easy to be for something when it doesn't impact you directly.

"Eh, screw hunters, I don't like em anyway" The Ravi way.

The link I gave you showed it was no where near a 150% increase, let alone a 300% increase. Depending on what you are buying the cost will be the same or up to a 30% increase.

Now you've moved the goal posts like the moron you are. And I have no problem with hunting.

That is the cost NOW. If the feds don't lift their regulations on manufacturer of said ammo, there will be more demand and less supply. That raises prices. Welcome to economics 101.

 

[martybegan]

300%? Not according to this.

Bullet Types

Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?

So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?

How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?

Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?

If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.

How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

California Condors and Lead

Ventana Wildlife Society believes that hunters and ranchers have a strong tradition of wildlife conservation ethics. We promote the use of non-lead ammunition because of the effect of lead on California Condors and other wildlife.

How does lead poisoning happen in condors and other scavenging birds anyway? Scavengers eat many different types of animals, some of which are shot with lead projectiles. Animals either left behind in the field, such as ground squirrels and coyotes, or animals shot and unable to be recovered, contain lead fragments left behind in the shot animal. Animals shot with shotgun pellets are also available to scavengers as well as waterfowl depending on where the shooting takes place. Condors and other wildlife often ingest large chunks of flesh and sometimes bone and cannot distinguish between a tiny lead fragment from a bullet versus a pebble for example. Once ingested, the digestive system interacts with the lead bullet which leaches the lead into the bloodstream of the animal that ingested it. Lead in blood rises dramatically after ingestion of a lead object and within days the animals feels the effects. Lead poisoning is an awful way to die because it paralyzes the digestive system often killing the animal slowly through starvation. If any of this is new to you or you are skeptical, please do your own research and start by reviewing the links, video, etc. at the bottom of this page.

The literature linking lead poisoning in condors to lead from spent ammunition is strong. In fact, we have contributed some of it. But what really convinces us is the direct evidence we have seen during our 15 years of managing the central California Condor population. As a recent example, a 10 year-old male condor (#318, Figure 1) died in November 2012 after ingesting a lead .22 caliber bullet, presumably while feeding on a carcass. The bird was found in San Benito County barely alive and unable to feed or use its legs to stand. Despite valiant efforts, veterinarians could not save him. Cause of death, through necropsy, was determined to be lead toxicosis. A radiograph showed multiple metal fragments and a bullet-shaped object in the digestive tract (Figure 2). The object was removed and determined to be a .22 caliber lead bullet (Figure 3).

The death of condor #318 is a huge loss for the central California population. This bird was a breeding male, the first at Pinnacles National Park in more than 100 years. With only a few breeding pairs established in the region, his loss leaves a void which might not be quickly filled. His surviving mate has left the breeding territory, and it is not clear if and when she will pair with another condor and breed again. The loss of even a small number of breeding pairs, and the offspring they produce, puts the entire population at risk.

We thank the many hunters who participated in our free non-lead ammunition program. We raised more than $50,000 in 2012 to support local hunters making the switch through this program, and we hope to raise more funds to continue in 2013. We greatly appreciate the 221 hunters who completed our online survey. For a summary report of the 2012 free non-lead ammunition program, including results of the survey, click here.

If it so important to you then I'm sure you would gladly contribute to a fund to cover the increased costs for hunters.

You're saying hunters can't or won't be responsible without more subsidies?

Not from the government, from YOUR pocket. If its that important, pony up.

 

[martybegan]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

Nothing says "stick it to the man" like poisoning nature

Tell me how solid bullets sitting in soil, soil mind you that already probably has lead in it anyway, is "poisoning nature"

Why would someone address such a stupid question when no one is talking about lead sitting in soil?

Lead in soil, lead as large solids, it doesn't matter because the end goal is making it harder to get guns and to use them.

If the Condors weren't around the soil/water argument would be next.

 

[martybegan]

Tell me how solid bullets sitting in soil, soil mind you that already probably has lead in it anyway, is "poisoning nature"

A bird cannot distinguish between lead shot and gravel.

A carrion eating bird does not just spit out the lead fragments.

There is a logical reason for the lead bans.

Lead has been out of most paint and fuels for decades.

Why?

Because lead can be highly toxic.

Paint was because kids were eating paint chips. In the case of gasoline it became aerosolized and deposited in a large, spread out manner.

Again, if people are so gung ho about this, they should also be lobbying the feds at the same time to allow hunters an easier transition. If not, they they are the gun grabbing idiots we say they are.

and we all know the next step is a total ban, because gun control freaks can't control themselves.

It is an easy transition. The law doesn't go into effect until 2019 EXCEPT on state owned land.

And how much of hunting land is State owned?

1,000,000 acres. But I suppose a state can't regulate its property.

out of how many total available for hunting?

Like any government it has a duty to have a good reason AND minimize the impact on the regulated.