Hunters....you still think they don't want your guns too......banning lead ammo...

[martybegan]

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

 

[Ravi]

How about you pony up the extra 300% cost of non lead bullets so hunters can afford to keep hunting?

300%? Not according to this.

Bullet Types

Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?

So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?

How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?

Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?

If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.

How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?

 

[zeke]

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

WTF???? Are you having rational thought Friday or something? You sounding like some left wing enviro commie whacko or something. NRA's gonna take your card and not accept your money. Well, no I lied about that last part. The NRA will still take your money. But the gun nutters will not be proud of you.

 

[Asclepias]

How about you pony up the extra 300% cost of non lead bullets so hunters can afford to keep hunting?

300%? Not according to this.

Bullet Types

Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?

So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?

How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?

Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?

Hey retard. Naturally occurring lead lumps dont turn up in animals like bullets do.

 

[Asclepias]

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

Why does it matter? I bet you are all for more lead based paint too.

 

[Ernie S.]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

Nothing says "stick it to the man" like poisoning nature

I can see the argument for removing lead from shot shells used for waterfowl but hunting in a forest? Really? There is far more lead in nature than is added by a few 150 grain boat tails landing on the forest floor

 

[Ernie S.]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

You think a pure copper bullet, or a steel core lead free bullet will not kill as well?

I think that in another 5 years the wackos will be trying to ban copper bullets too.
Besides, copper and steel would make piss poor bullets as neither will mushroom on contact with tissue. Might make OK target loads and shot shell pellets.

 

[M14 Shooter]

There should be no question in any honest mind mind that the anti-gun loons will do everything they can to restrict the right to arms as much as they can.

 

[Syriusly]

How about you pony up the extra 300% cost of non lead bullets so hunters can afford to keep hunting?

300%? Not according to this.

Bullet Types

Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?

So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?

How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?

Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?

If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.

How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

California Condors and Lead

Ventana Wildlife Society believes that hunters and ranchers have a strong tradition of wildlife conservation ethics. We promote the use of non-lead ammunition because of the effect of lead on California Condors and other wildlife.

How does lead poisoning happen in condors and other scavenging birds anyway? Scavengers eat many different types of animals, some of which are shot with lead projectiles. Animals either left behind in the field, such as ground squirrels and coyotes, or animals shot and unable to be recovered, contain lead fragments left behind in the shot animal. Animals shot with shotgun pellets are also available to scavengers as well as waterfowl depending on where the shooting takes place. Condors and other wildlife often ingest large chunks of flesh and sometimes bone and cannot distinguish between a tiny lead fragment from a bullet versus a pebble for example. Once ingested, the digestive system interacts with the lead bullet which leaches the lead into the bloodstream of the animal that ingested it. Lead in blood rises dramatically after ingestion of a lead object and within days the animals feels the effects. Lead poisoning is an awful way to die because it paralyzes the digestive system often killing the animal slowly through starvation. If any of this is new to you or you are skeptical, please do your own research and start by reviewing the links, video, etc. at the bottom of this page.

The literature linking lead poisoning in condors to lead from spent ammunition is strong. In fact, we have contributed some of it. But what really convinces us is the direct evidence we have seen during our 15 years of managing the central California Condor population. As a recent example, a 10 year-old male condor (#318, Figure 1) died in November 2012 after ingesting a lead .22 caliber bullet, presumably while feeding on a carcass. The bird was found in San Benito County barely alive and unable to feed or use its legs to stand. Despite valiant efforts, veterinarians could not save him. Cause of death, through necropsy, was determined to be lead toxicosis. A radiograph showed multiple metal fragments and a bullet-shaped object in the digestive tract (Figure 2). The object was removed and determined to be a .22 caliber lead bullet (Figure 3).

The death of condor #318 is a huge loss for the central California population. This bird was a breeding male, the first at Pinnacles National Park in more than 100 years. With only a few breeding pairs established in the region, his loss leaves a void which might not be quickly filled. His surviving mate has left the breeding territory, and it is not clear if and when she will pair with another condor and breed again. The loss of even a small number of breeding pairs, and the offspring they produce, puts the entire population at risk.

We thank the many hunters who participated in our free non-lead ammunition program. We raised more than $50,000 in 2012 to support local hunters making the switch through this program, and we hope to raise more funds to continue in 2013. We greatly appreciate the 221 hunters who completed our online survey. For a summary report of the 2012 free non-lead ammunition program, including results of the survey, click here.

 

[Syriusly]

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

I know lots of responsible hunters who really do care about bird populations- they are willing to give up lead for hunting in order to save California Condors.


Condors and Lead
Lead toxicity has been identified as the leading cause of death in condors in Arizona’s California condor reintroduction program, and high mortality rates are the primary obstacle to recovery of this species. Multiple condors have died of lead poisoning since 2000. Condors are trapped annually to have their blood tested for lead. Biologists began testing for lead exposure in 1999. Each year, 45 to 95 percent of the condor population tests positive for lead exposure. Chelation treatment is often required to reverse dangerously high blood lead levels. Surgery has also been necessary in the worst cases. Without these treatments, more condors likely would have died.


A number of scientific studies collectively provide strong evidence to support the hypothesis that spent lead ammunition is the primary source of lead exposure in condors. The information gained from these studies can be collectively presented as a set of scientific findings or observations, linked together to create a logic chain. Individually, each link in the following logic chain has been demonstrated by a scientific study, and collectively the links form a logic chain that provides strong evidence that lead ammunition is the most likely source of elevated blood lead levels in free-ranging condors.


Logic Chain Supporting Spent Ammunition as the Most Likely Source of Lead in Free-ranging Condors

• Condors are obligate scavengers, primarily of medium to large mammalian species.
• Large numbers of deer are killed within condor range, and large numbers of deer carcasses and gut piles are seasonally available within their range.
• High proportions of deer carcasses and gut piles found within condor range are contaminated with lead from spent ammunition.
• Pieces of spent ammunition have been documented within condor digestive tracts in multiple cases.
• Lead in ingested ammunition is absorbed in the digestive tract and leads to elevated blood lead levels.
• Free-flying condors have frequently been observed with elevated levels of lead in their blood, with evidence of variable lead levels and re-occurring periods of high exposure.
• Elevated blood lead levels are temporally (seasonally) associated with increased availability of hunter-killed deer carcasses and gut piles (i.e., when hunters are using lead bullets in condor foraging areas).

 

[Ravi]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

Nothing says "stick it to the man" like poisoning nature

I can see the argument for removing lead from shot shells used for waterfowl but hunting in a forest? Really? There is far more lead in nature than is added by a few 150 grain boat tails landing on the forest floor

Hunter shoots animal. Animal gets away. Dies anyway. Condor eats animal, including lead.

 

[martybegan]

How about you pony up the extra 300% cost of non lead bullets so hunters can afford to keep hunting?

300%? Not according to this.

Bullet Types

Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?

So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?

How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?

Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?

If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.

How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?

How about we find something you like to do and jack the price up a few hundred % "for the environment?"

Again, its easy to screw with other people's stuff.

 

[Ravi]

How about you pony up the extra 300% cost of non lead bullets so hunters can afford to keep hunting?

300%? Not according to this.

Bullet Types

Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?

So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?

How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?

Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?

If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.

How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?

How about we find something you like to do and jack the price up a few hundred % "for the environment?"

Again, its easy to screw with other people's stuff.

I used to enjoy pooring toxic chemicals into the Florida aquifer but now I have to dispose of them properly. Oh, the horror!

 

[Roadrunner]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

Nothing says "stick it to the man" like poisoning nature

Tell me how solid bullets sitting in soil, soil mind you that already probably has lead in it anyway, is "poisoning nature"

A bird cannot distinguish between lead shot and gravel.

A carrion eating bird does not just spit out the lead fragments.

There is a logical reason for the lead bans.

Lead has been out of most paint and fuels for decades.

Why?

Because lead can be highly toxic.

 

[martybegan]

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

I know lots of responsible hunters who really do care about bird populations- they are willing to give up lead for hunting in order to save California Condors.


Condors and Lead
Lead toxicity has been identified as the leading cause of death in condors in Arizona’s California condor reintroduction program, and high mortality rates are the primary obstacle to recovery of this species. Multiple condors have died of lead poisoning since 2000. Condors are trapped annually to have their blood tested for lead. Biologists began testing for lead exposure in 1999. Each year, 45 to 95 percent of the condor population tests positive for lead exposure. Chelation treatment is often required to reverse dangerously high blood lead levels. Surgery has also been necessary in the worst cases. Without these treatments, more condors likely would have died.


A number of scientific studies collectively provide strong evidence to support the hypothesis that spent lead ammunition is the primary source of lead exposure in condors. The information gained from these studies can be collectively presented as a set of scientific findings or observations, linked together to create a logic chain. Individually, each link in the following logic chain has been demonstrated by a scientific study, and collectively the links form a logic chain that provides strong evidence that lead ammunition is the most likely source of elevated blood lead levels in free-ranging condors.


Logic Chain Supporting Spent Ammunition as the Most Likely Source of Lead in Free-ranging Condors

• Condors are obligate scavengers, primarily of medium to large mammalian species.
• Large numbers of deer are killed within condor range, and large numbers of deer carcasses and gut piles are seasonally available within their range.
• High proportions of deer carcasses and gut piles found within condor range are contaminated with lead from spent ammunition.
• Pieces of spent ammunition have been documented within condor digestive tracts in multiple cases.
• Lead in ingested ammunition is absorbed in the digestive tract and leads to elevated blood lead levels.
• Free-flying condors have frequently been observed with elevated levels of lead in their blood, with evidence of variable lead levels and re-occurring periods of high exposure.
• Elevated blood lead levels are temporally (seasonally) associated with increased availability of hunter-killed deer carcasses and gut piles (i.e., when hunters are using lead bullets in condor foraging areas).

"I know people". Yeah we believe you....

and there is a lot of leeway in everything you posted. "elevated" doesn't mean lethal, and you show no hard #'s on poisoned vs. total population.

If you are going to make people's lives harder you better have real reasons, or this turns into another "Delta Smelt" Kurfluffle.

 

[Roadrunner]

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

I am sure I can google an estimate, as you could too.

 

[BlackSand]

I had a wild hog and a water moccasin out back earlier this week that both died from acute cases of lead poisoning.
Albeit the velocity of the lead probably had more of an effect than the bullet composition.

.

 

[martybegan]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

Nothing says "stick it to the man" like poisoning nature

Tell me how solid bullets sitting in soil, soil mind you that already probably has lead in it anyway, is "poisoning nature"

A bird cannot distinguish between lead shot and gravel.

A carrion eating bird does not just spit out the lead fragments.

There is a logical reason for the lead bans.

Lead has been out of most paint and fuels for decades.

Why?

Because lead can be highly toxic.

Paint was because kids were eating paint chips. In the case of gasoline it became aerosolized and deposited in a large, spread out manner.

Again, if people are so gung ho about this, they should also be lobbying the feds at the same time to allow hunters an easier transition. If not, they they are the gun grabbing idiots we say they are.

and we all know the next step is a total ban, because gun control freaks can't control themselves.

 

[martybegan]

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.

Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.

If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.

How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?

I am sure I can google an estimate, as you could too.

I'm not the one messing with a 2nd amendment right. the people trying to do that are the ones who need to prove it.

 

[martybegan]

How about you pony up the extra 300% cost of non lead bullets so hunters can afford to keep hunting?

300%? Not according to this.

Bullet Types

Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?

So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?

How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?

Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?

If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.

How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?

How about we find something you like to do and jack the price up a few hundred % "for the environment?"

Again, its easy to screw with other people's stuff.

I used to enjoy pooring toxic chemicals into the Florida aquifer but now I have to dispose of them properly. Oh, the horror!

Nice non-answer.