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The issue is being blown out of proportion ... The ban against lead bullets is in reference to hunting restrictions in designated areas.
Duck hunters have been using steel shot instead of lead for years under penalty of law for non-compliance.
It is not a ban against having lead bullets ... Just using them for hunting.
If a hunter will spend more than $1000 on a four wheeler, $100's on deer corn and constructing a deer stand, more money on camouflage clothing and firearms ... We can afford a little more for ammo.
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It never ends with this. They will keep going on. I live in NYC and my gun rights have been ignored for 3 decades now. Until that is changed I don't trust anyone claiming "its just this, then we stop"
I don't have the responsibility to make your hobby cheaper. You do have a responsibility to protect and preserve the environment.You're saying hunters can't or won't be responsible without more subsidies?If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?
How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?
Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?
How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.
If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.
How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?
California Condors and Lead
Ventana Wildlife Society believes that hunters and ranchers have a strong tradition of wildlife conservation ethics. We promote the use of non-lead ammunition because of the effect of lead on California Condors and other wildlife.
How does lead poisoning happen in condors and other scavenging birds anyway? Scavengers eat many different types of animals, some of which are shot with lead projectiles. Animals either left behind in the field, such as ground squirrels and coyotes, or animals shot and unable to be recovered, contain lead fragments left behind in the shot animal. Animals shot with shotgun pellets are also available to scavengers as well as waterfowl depending on where the shooting takes place. Condors and other wildlife often ingest large chunks of flesh and sometimes bone and cannot distinguish between a tiny lead fragment from a bullet versus a pebble for example. Once ingested, the digestive system interacts with the lead bullet which leaches the lead into the bloodstream of the animal that ingested it. Lead in blood rises dramatically after ingestion of a lead object and within days the animals feels the effects. Lead poisoning is an awful way to die because it paralyzes the digestive system often killing the animal slowly through starvation. If any of this is new to you or you are skeptical, please do your own research and start by reviewing the links, video, etc. at the bottom of this page.
The literature linking lead poisoning in condors to lead from spent ammunition is strong. In fact, we have contributed some of it. But what really convinces us is the direct evidence we have seen during our 15 years of managing the central California Condor population. As a recent example, a 10 year-old male condor (#318, Figure 1) died in November 2012 after ingesting a lead .22 caliber bullet, presumably while feeding on a carcass. The bird was found in San Benito County barely alive and unable to feed or use its legs to stand. Despite valiant efforts, veterinarians could not save him. Cause of death, through necropsy, was determined to be lead toxicosis. A radiograph showed multiple metal fragments and a bullet-shaped object in the digestive tract (Figure 2). The object was removed and determined to be a .22 caliber lead bullet (Figure 3).
The death of condor #318 is a huge loss for the central California population. This bird was a breeding male, the first at Pinnacles National Park in more than 100 years. With only a few breeding pairs established in the region, his loss leaves a void which might not be quickly filled. His surviving mate has left the breeding territory, and it is not clear if and when she will pair with another condor and breed again. The loss of even a small number of breeding pairs, and the offspring they produce, puts the entire population at risk.
We thank the many hunters who participated in our free non-lead ammunition program. We raised more than $50,000 in 2012 to support local hunters making the switch through this program, and we hope to raise more funds to continue in 2013. We greatly appreciate the 221 hunters who completed our online survey. For a summary report of the 2012 free non-lead ammunition program, including results of the survey, click here.
If it so important to you then I'm sure you would gladly contribute to a fund to cover the increased costs for hunters.
Not from the government, from YOUR pocket. If its that important, pony up.
It never ends with this. They will keep going on. I live in NYC and my gun rights have been ignored for 3 decades now. Until that is changed I don't trust anyone claiming "its just this, then we stop"
Once it was established that the Feds reigned over duck hunting (migratory waterfowl cross state lines) ... The switch to steel shot was met with the same apprehension.
Now it is simply accepted as a requirement ... Lead shot is still available for other purposes.
The important thing to remember is that ... "It won't stop" ... Because it really won't stop.
It is a reasonable requirement that you would be a fool to try and establish an argument against.
That doesn't mean that there are not unreasonable attempts that will be made in the future to take away gun rights.
It just means that this is not a battle you want to waste any capital on ... It serves no purpose worth entertaining.
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I don't have the responsibility to make your hobby cheaper. You do have a responsibility to protect and preserve the environment.You're saying hunters can't or won't be responsible without more subsidies?If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.
How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?
California Condors and Lead
Ventana Wildlife Society believes that hunters and ranchers have a strong tradition of wildlife conservation ethics. We promote the use of non-lead ammunition because of the effect of lead on California Condors and other wildlife.
How does lead poisoning happen in condors and other scavenging birds anyway? Scavengers eat many different types of animals, some of which are shot with lead projectiles. Animals either left behind in the field, such as ground squirrels and coyotes, or animals shot and unable to be recovered, contain lead fragments left behind in the shot animal. Animals shot with shotgun pellets are also available to scavengers as well as waterfowl depending on where the shooting takes place. Condors and other wildlife often ingest large chunks of flesh and sometimes bone and cannot distinguish between a tiny lead fragment from a bullet versus a pebble for example. Once ingested, the digestive system interacts with the lead bullet which leaches the lead into the bloodstream of the animal that ingested it. Lead in blood rises dramatically after ingestion of a lead object and within days the animals feels the effects. Lead poisoning is an awful way to die because it paralyzes the digestive system often killing the animal slowly through starvation. If any of this is new to you or you are skeptical, please do your own research and start by reviewing the links, video, etc. at the bottom of this page.
The literature linking lead poisoning in condors to lead from spent ammunition is strong. In fact, we have contributed some of it. But what really convinces us is the direct evidence we have seen during our 15 years of managing the central California Condor population. As a recent example, a 10 year-old male condor (#318, Figure 1) died in November 2012 after ingesting a lead .22 caliber bullet, presumably while feeding on a carcass. The bird was found in San Benito County barely alive and unable to feed or use its legs to stand. Despite valiant efforts, veterinarians could not save him. Cause of death, through necropsy, was determined to be lead toxicosis. A radiograph showed multiple metal fragments and a bullet-shaped object in the digestive tract (Figure 2). The object was removed and determined to be a .22 caliber lead bullet (Figure 3).
The death of condor #318 is a huge loss for the central California population. This bird was a breeding male, the first at Pinnacles National Park in more than 100 years. With only a few breeding pairs established in the region, his loss leaves a void which might not be quickly filled. His surviving mate has left the breeding territory, and it is not clear if and when she will pair with another condor and breed again. The loss of even a small number of breeding pairs, and the offspring they produce, puts the entire population at risk.
We thank the many hunters who participated in our free non-lead ammunition program. We raised more than $50,000 in 2012 to support local hunters making the switch through this program, and we hope to raise more funds to continue in 2013. We greatly appreciate the 221 hunters who completed our online survey. For a summary report of the 2012 free non-lead ammunition program, including results of the survey, click here.
If it so important to you then I'm sure you would gladly contribute to a fund to cover the increased costs for hunters.
Not from the government, from YOUR pocket. If its that important, pony up.
If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.300%? Not according to this.How about you pony up the extra 300% cost of non lead bullets so hunters can afford to keep hunting?
Bullet Types
Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?
So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?
How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?
Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?
How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.
If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.
How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?
California Condors and Lead
Ventana Wildlife Society believes that hunters and ranchers have a strong tradition of wildlife conservation ethics. We promote the use of non-lead ammunition because of the effect of lead on California Condors and other wildlife.
How does lead poisoning happen in condors and other scavenging birds anyway? Scavengers eat many different types of animals, some of which are shot with lead projectiles. Animals either left behind in the field, such as ground squirrels and coyotes, or animals shot and unable to be recovered, contain lead fragments left behind in the shot animal. Animals shot with shotgun pellets are also available to scavengers as well as waterfowl depending on where the shooting takes place. Condors and other wildlife often ingest large chunks of flesh and sometimes bone and cannot distinguish between a tiny lead fragment from a bullet versus a pebble for example. Once ingested, the digestive system interacts with the lead bullet which leaches the lead into the bloodstream of the animal that ingested it. Lead in blood rises dramatically after ingestion of a lead object and within days the animals feels the effects. Lead poisoning is an awful way to die because it paralyzes the digestive system often killing the animal slowly through starvation. If any of this is new to you or you are skeptical, please do your own research and start by reviewing the links, video, etc. at the bottom of this page.
The literature linking lead poisoning in condors to lead from spent ammunition is strong. In fact, we have contributed some of it. But what really convinces us is the direct evidence we have seen during our 15 years of managing the central California Condor population. As a recent example, a 10 year-old male condor (#318, Figure 1) died in November 2012 after ingesting a lead .22 caliber bullet, presumably while feeding on a carcass. The bird was found in San Benito County barely alive and unable to feed or use its legs to stand. Despite valiant efforts, veterinarians could not save him. Cause of death, through necropsy, was determined to be lead toxicosis. A radiograph showed multiple metal fragments and a bullet-shaped object in the digestive tract (Figure 2). The object was removed and determined to be a .22 caliber lead bullet (Figure 3).
The death of condor #318 is a huge loss for the central California population. This bird was a breeding male, the first at Pinnacles National Park in more than 100 years. With only a few breeding pairs established in the region, his loss leaves a void which might not be quickly filled. His surviving mate has left the breeding territory, and it is not clear if and when she will pair with another condor and breed again. The loss of even a small number of breeding pairs, and the offspring they produce, puts the entire population at risk.
We thank the many hunters who participated in our free non-lead ammunition program. We raised more than $50,000 in 2012 to support local hunters making the switch through this program, and we hope to raise more funds to continue in 2013. We greatly appreciate the 221 hunters who completed our online survey. For a summary report of the 2012 free non-lead ammunition program, including results of the survey, click here.
If it so important to you then I'm sure you would gladly contribute to a fund to cover the increased costs for hunters.
If there is lead in forests it is in ore and not something that can or will be eaten by wildlife.300%? Not according to this.
Bullet Types
Screw the crybabies, what right do they have to pollute the forests anyway?
So there is zero naturally existing lead in forests? So a few bullets (the ones that miss mind you) spread among the tons of top soil causes catastrophic "pollution"?
How about the people supporting this create a fund to subsidize the increased cost? How about they also lobby the feds to lift the restrictions on non-lead bullets?
Maybe its because gun control is the primary cause, and "teh enviornments" is just a convenient ploy?
How about just not allowing people to cause problems and ban lead for hunting? Why must everyone do what YOU in your selfishness want them to do?Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.
If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.
How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?
California Condors and Lead
Ventana Wildlife Society believes that hunters and ranchers have a strong tradition of wildlife conservation ethics. We promote the use of non-lead ammunition because of the effect of lead on California Condors and other wildlife.
How does lead poisoning happen in condors and other scavenging birds anyway? Scavengers eat many different types of animals, some of which are shot with lead projectiles. Animals either left behind in the field, such as ground squirrels and coyotes, or animals shot and unable to be recovered, contain lead fragments left behind in the shot animal. Animals shot with shotgun pellets are also available to scavengers as well as waterfowl depending on where the shooting takes place. Condors and other wildlife often ingest large chunks of flesh and sometimes bone and cannot distinguish between a tiny lead fragment from a bullet versus a pebble for example. Once ingested, the digestive system interacts with the lead bullet which leaches the lead into the bloodstream of the animal that ingested it. Lead in blood rises dramatically after ingestion of a lead object and within days the animals feels the effects. Lead poisoning is an awful way to die because it paralyzes the digestive system often killing the animal slowly through starvation. If any of this is new to you or you are skeptical, please do your own research and start by reviewing the links, video, etc. at the bottom of this page.
The literature linking lead poisoning in condors to lead from spent ammunition is strong. In fact, we have contributed some of it. But what really convinces us is the direct evidence we have seen during our 15 years of managing the central California Condor population. As a recent example, a 10 year-old male condor (#318, Figure 1) died in November 2012 after ingesting a lead .22 caliber bullet, presumably while feeding on a carcass. The bird was found in San Benito County barely alive and unable to feed or use its legs to stand. Despite valiant efforts, veterinarians could not save him. Cause of death, through necropsy, was determined to be lead toxicosis. A radiograph showed multiple metal fragments and a bullet-shaped object in the digestive tract (Figure 2). The object was removed and determined to be a .22 caliber lead bullet (Figure 3).
The death of condor #318 is a huge loss for the central California population. This bird was a breeding male, the first at Pinnacles National Park in more than 100 years. With only a few breeding pairs established in the region, his loss leaves a void which might not be quickly filled. His surviving mate has left the breeding territory, and it is not clear if and when she will pair with another condor and breed again. The loss of even a small number of breeding pairs, and the offspring they produce, puts the entire population at risk.
We thank the many hunters who participated in our free non-lead ammunition program. We raised more than $50,000 in 2012 to support local hunters making the switch through this program, and we hope to raise more funds to continue in 2013. We greatly appreciate the 221 hunters who completed our online survey. For a summary report of the 2012 free non-lead ammunition program, including results of the survey, click here.
If it so important to you then I'm sure you would gladly contribute to a fund to cover the increased costs for hunters.
If it is so important for you that hunters be able to kill condors, I am sure you will be buying them lead shot.
You just want to be outraged- so be outraged.
What regulations are you talking about?The link I gave you showed it was no where near a 150% increase, let alone a 300% increase. Depending on what you are buying the cost will be the same or up to a 30% increase.Proper disposal costs money. You pretended that I wouldn't be willing to spend a little to save more and were shown to be an ass.I used to enjoy pooring toxic chemicals into the Florida aquifer but now I have to dispose of them properly. Oh, the horror!
Nice non-answer.
even if we half the increase to 150%, that is not "a little more"
Again, its easy to be for something when it doesn't impact you directly.
"Eh, screw hunters, I don't like em anyway" The Ravi way.
Now you've moved the goal posts like the moron you are. And I have no problem with hunting.
That is the cost NOW. If the feds don't lift their regulations on manufacturer of said ammo, there will be more demand and less supply. That raises prices. Welcome to economics 101.
I don't have the responsibility to make your hobby cheaper. You do have a responsibility to protect and preserve the environment.
Link?I don't have the responsibility to make your hobby cheaper. You do have a responsibility to protect and preserve the environment.
Hunters and fishers spend more money and pay more fees that go directly towards conservation of wildlife and the areas they inhabit than just about any other segment of society ... Telling them what their responsibilities are when they are already footing the bill and doing the legwork is ignorant at best.
.
Link?
They pay the money. Others do the legwork, and they don't cover all expenses through their fees.I don't have the responsibility to make your hobby cheaper. You do have a responsibility to protect and preserve the environment.
Hunters and fishers spend more money and pay more fees that go directly towards conservation of wildlife and the areas they inhabit than any other segment of society ... Telling them what their responsibilities are when they are already footing the bill and doing the legwork is ignorant at best.
.
They pay the money. Others do the legwork, and they don't cover all expenses through their fees.
And just because you're doing part doesnt give you license to be reckless
And yet you seem to have a problem banning ammunition that is shown to have a verifiable negative environmental impact.They pay the money. Others do the legwork, and they don't cover all expenses through their fees.
And just because you're doing part doesnt give you license to be reckless
I didn't post they covered "all" the expenses ... Nor did I support the idea of being reckless.
.
Saving the condor is worth banning lead bullets in California.Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years.
The birds eat it thinking it's gravel for their gizzards and get lead poisoning.
Now if they try and ban all lead ammo I'm going to have a problem with it and will consider it a backdoor attack on the 2nd.
If it is only an excuse that would be one thing, but, significant numbers of dead condors had lead fragments in them, from eating discarded game waste with lead fragments in it.
How many condors is it actually killing as a percentage of overall population?
I know lots of responsible hunters who really do care about bird populations- they are willing to give up lead for hunting in order to save California Condors.
Condors and Lead
Lead toxicity has been identified as the leading cause of death in condors in Arizona’s California condor reintroduction program, and high mortality rates are the primary obstacle to recovery of this species. Multiple condors have died of lead poisoning since 2000. Condors are trapped annually to have their blood tested for lead. Biologists began testing for lead exposure in 1999. Each year, 45 to 95 percent of the condor population tests positive for lead exposure. Chelation treatment is often required to reverse dangerously high blood lead levels. Surgery has also been necessary in the worst cases. Without these treatments, more condors likely would have died.
A number of scientific studies collectively provide strong evidence to support the hypothesis that spent lead ammunition is the primary source of lead exposure in condors. The information gained from these studies can be collectively presented as a set of scientific findings or observations, linked together to create a logic chain. Individually, each link in the following logic chain has been demonstrated by a scientific study, and collectively the links form a logic chain that provides strong evidence that lead ammunition is the most likely source of elevated blood lead levels in free-ranging condors.
Logic Chain Supporting Spent Ammunition as the Most Likely Source of Lead in Free-ranging Condors
- Condors are obligate scavengers, primarily of medium to large mammalian species.
- Large numbers of deer are killed within condor range, and large numbers of deer carcasses and gut piles are seasonally available within their range.
- High proportions of deer carcasses and gut piles found within condor range are contaminated with lead from spent ammunition.
- Pieces of spent ammunition have been documented within condor digestive tracts in multiple cases.
- Lead in ingested ammunition is absorbed in the digestive tract and leads to elevated blood lead levels.
- Free-flying condors have frequently been observed with elevated levels of lead in their blood, with evidence of variable lead levels and re-occurring periods of high exposure.
- Elevated blood lead levels are temporally (seasonally) associated with increased availability of hunter-killed deer carcasses and gut piles (i.e., when hunters are using lead bullets in condor foraging areas).
Right, so you can't show that they are footing the bill. MY TAXES support public land, therefore, the hunters are NOT footing the bill, moron.Link?
Shut the fuck up if you don't know what you are talking about.
.
And yet you seem to have a problem banning ammunition that is shown to have a verifiable negative environmental impact.
Is that not being reckless?
Right, so you can't show that they are footing the bill. MY TAXES support public land, therefore, the hunters are NOT footing the bill, moron.
I don't have the responsibility to make your hobby cheaper. You do have a responsibility to protect and preserve the environment.
Hunters and fishers spend more money and pay more fees that go directly towards conservation of wildlife and the areas they inhabit than any other segment of society ... Telling them what their responsibilities are when they are already footing the bill and doing the legwork is ignorant at best.
.
"Telling them what their responsibilities are when they are already footing the bill and doing the legwork is ignorant at best."And yet you seem to have a problem banning ammunition that is shown to have a verifiable negative environmental impact.
Is that not being reckless?
Where exactly did I suggest it would be a bad idea ... Or that I was against the measure?
