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The man is drowning, he just doesn't know it. Again, God doesn't punish anyone. We are all sinners and good works are like filthy rags, trash. It isn't punishment when someone chooses to live eternally in darkness. It's their choice.That's not a very good analogy.
The man in my example isn't drowning he is just a mortal who would have died at some point in time whether or not he worshipped any gods. He expected no rewards for his actions in life
So why would any god punish a man that in every measure but religion lived a good and admirable life defined by his own good works simply because he didn't worship?
No he's not drowning that is your assumption that has been given to you by your religion.The man is drowning, he just doesn't know it. Again, Go doesn't punish anyone. We are all sinners and good works are like filthy rags, trash. It isn't punishment when someone chooses to live eternally in darkness. It's their choice.
I think that is a reasonable question that frankly just reciting doctrine or dogma doesn't really answer. My answer is I don't know. But I have known people who questioned the Christian faith who were so honest, noble, benevolent, generous that it is hard to think those would be denied heaven while some believers who didn't/don't always behave in a Christian manner are assumed to have a free pass.That's not a very good analogy.
The man in my example isn't drowning he is just a mortal who would have died at some point in time whether or not he worshipped any gods. He expected no rewards for his actions in life
So why would any god punish a man that in every measure but religion lived a good and admirable life defined by his own good works simply because he didn't worship?
And he would receive none. That's the point, you're expecting God to reward him, even though he had no intention of receiving anything from Him.That's not a very good analogy.
The man in my example isn't drowning he is just a mortal who would have died at some point in time whether or not he worshipped any gods. He expected no rewards for his actions in life
You have to understand what sin actually is. It's not actions, it's rebellion against God's authority. And by whose standard did that man live a "good and admirable life"? His, or God's?So why would any god punish a man that in every measure but religion lived a good and admirable life defined by his own good works simply because he didn't worship?
I don't practice any religion or belong to one. Jesus isn't a religion.No he's not drowning that is your assumption that has been given to you by your religion.
And the Bible is full of examples of divine punishments.
No one lives eternally .
Who is the better man
The man who desires a reward from a god for living a good life or the man who lives a good life expecting no rewards
For me it is the latter
And he would receive none. That's the point, you're expecting God to reward him, even though he had no intention of receiving anything from Him.
You have to understand what sin actually is. It's not actions, it's rebellion against God's authority. And by whose standard did that man live a "good and admirable life"? His, or God's?
Ultimately, we have to ask the question then, why should God accept into His eternal presence someone who rejected His own sacrifice?
It's like asking why does God not stop evil from happening? The questioner doesn't realize that, if God was to do that, they'd be part of that judgement. Basically, they think of themselves as pretty much okay, and expect God to think so as well. He doesn't.
The god of the bible requires worship and has imposed rules on you to do so. That is the very definition of religionI don't practice any religion or belong to one. Jesus isn't a religion.
You're judging by human standards and God doesn't use human standards, He uses His. I'm saying that all stand equally sinful before God because His standard of holiness cannot be attained by human effort alone. Again, why should God accept anyone who refused His offer, but insisted on trying to do it themselves, and failed?We all know the measure of what makes a good life. No gods are needed for society to judge the life of any person.
If 2 men both live the exact same life of dedication to family and his fellow man and perform equivalent good works with the only difference being that one worshipped a god and one didn't is it your contention that the act of worship made one man a better man than the other?
good and evil aren't the topic but both of those things are just human constructs anyway.
The way some religious people talk about evil and free will makes it seem that they believe that it was the free will of the victims that caused their demises
You're judging by human standards and God doesn't use human standards, He uses His. I'm saying that all stand equally sinful before God because His standard of holiness cannot be attained by human effort alone. Again, why should God accept anyone who refused His offer, but insisted on trying to do it themselves, and failed?
Did he attain God's standard of holiness? No. Like I said in my analogy of people attempting to swim from California to Hawaii, some would make it 50 yards, some would make it a mile, and a few might make it 50 miles, but none of them would reach Hawaii. Now, the monk would be judged by what he knows, and it's up to God to decide to apply the blood of Christ to his life or not, but none of us has an excuse.Is the Buddhist monk who dedicated his life to helping the poor and infirm a "failure" because he didn't worship your god?
It didn't take you long to backslide to the personal attacks again Christian.I suspect the reason is probably because you are a waste of her time. You are another one of what I call passive aggressive militant atheists whose only purpose here is to combat religion. You are in fabulous company.
"We must know how to combat religion..." Vladimir Lenin
No personal attack at all. That's what you are doing.It didn't take you long to backslide to the personal attacks again Christian.
That is overstating what Isaiah said originally. He was saying that what some men thought as good were as filthy rags to God. In our own time, we could use abortion, which some see is good, is something God sees as a filthy rag. God does not see kindness to another person as a filthy rag.We are all sinners and good works are like filthy rags, trash.
I agree, but if someone thinks that their good works cancel our sin then they're deceived.That is overstating what Isaiah said originally. He was saying that what some men thought as good were as filthy rags to God. In our own time, we could use abortion, which some see is good, is something God sees as a filthy rag. God does not see kindness to another person as a filthy rag.
There's another explanation that could be true in some cases. The Christian doesn't stop and consider that the reason why their god didn't act in their favour is because sometimes fulfilling their prayer requests would be the god supporting evil.It's like asking why does God not stop evil from happening? The questioner doesn't realize that, if God was to do that, they'd be part of that judgement. Basically, they think of themselves as pretty much okay, and expect God to think so as well. He doesn't.
Yes, a personal attack by a Christian and that's not the only one I've read and pointed out to other Christians already today.No personal attack at all. That's what you are doing.
We know why prayers are answered with a no.There's another explanation that could be true in some cases. The Christian doesn't stop and consider that the reason why their god didn't act in their favour is because sometimes fulfilling their prayer requests would be the god supporting evil.
The other person praying to his god is obviously on the side of right and so the Christian doesn't have his prayers answered.
Has any Christian ever prayed to their god to have evil granted to them?
See Mark Twain's, War Prayer!
Then perhaps think in terms of Vietnam or Iraq, or dozens of other wars.
(I offer the above for the sake of giving Christians another example of why their prayers aren't answered)
(That is, if there actually was a god who answered prayers?)
And we continue to think that God has to use our standards of holiness instead of His own.I agree, but if someone thinks that their good works cancel our sin then they're deceived.
If that were so then there wouldn't be so many Christians obsessing over why their prayers aren't answered. Which of that 4 would you offer them?We know why prayers are answered with a no.
1. They're offered selfishly.
2. They're not in accordance with God's will.
3. We insist that God has to work on our timeframe.
4. We have no faith.
It's not. I'm challenging your beliefs. You don't seem to want to admit that the essence of atheism is that we exist only to satisfy material needs and our animal instincts. There is no higher purpose to man than those two things.Yes, a personal attack by a Christian and that's not the only one I've read and pointed out to other Christians already today.
I'm challenging your beliefs, because that's what a debate forum is for. Can you stop the personal attacks? If not then you're going to hear deserved criticism Christian.
