i can see this turning ugly

[geauxtohell]

Did she pass all the required coursework? Yes or No?

No one knows. Ms. Keeton's academic record is private information and the school can't even comment on it at this time.

That is the ONLY thing the school should be concerned with. Once she gets her degree then if she chooses a field which requires accreditation, she should be subject to THEIR policies regarding that accreditation, but that is not relevant to the school's graduating her.

I've commented on this sentiment already.

I must have missed it, and don't care to dig through the crap again, can you recap your opinion that matter?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2542765-post380.html

 

[AllieBaba]

When that starts happening, it's over. Linking back to previous comments. Pathetic.

 

[geauxtohell]

And you can pretend it isn't about religion all you want. You're lying.

So quick to toss out the "L" word. I suppose every dog knows their own.

No, it's not the overwhelming consensus. Kindly quote where you see non-choice presented as fact.

How many of you progressive nutjobs actually work in human services? Have any of you actually worked with homosexuals in a facility?

That's okay, you don't have to post any actual links or information. I've posted more than the rest of you yahoos combined.

As a matter of fact, there are a couple on here who haven't posted any facts at all. Just a sustained stream of lies and refusal to answer direct questions, or otherwise support any of the stupid claims they've made.

Kindly prove that it's the "consensus" that homosexuals aren't that way by choice.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2545243-post536.html

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?
No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. For most people, sexual orientation emerges in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

You asked me to prove the professional consensus on the issue of homosexuality not being a choice. I did so. You have ignored it.

Perhaps you should fix your own ethical shortcomings before calling others liars.

 

[geauxtohell]

When that starts happening, it's over. Linking back to previous comments. Pathetic.

I did so at the request of ConHog.

I thought you were glad I "spared you the repetition".

You seem to be rather confused these days.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Immie, part of mastering the material is learning how to properly counsel homosexual students. The student herself claims she cannot do so in conformity with the profession's standard of care.

No, she claims she can. Until evidence exists to contradict her assertion we should give her the benefit of the doubt. The only thing they can point to is her belief that homosexuality is a choice, and is not deterministic. Since her belief is at least as scientific as theirs, ie not at all, they cannot force her to adapt to theirs in order to pass the class.

 

[The Infidel]

When that starts happening, it's over. Linking back to previous comments. Pathetic.

Having to repeat yourself over and over sucks too though.

 

[ConHog]

No one knows. Ms. Keeton's academic record is private information and the school can't even comment on it at this time.



I've commented on this sentiment already.

I must have missed it, and don't care to dig through the crap again, can you recap your opinion that matter?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2542765-post380.html

Interesting that you believe that.

Now here are the facts on what is in the College's handbook as regards graduation from the College of Education with a Masters

School Counseling Concentration
• 48 semester hours of academic work (39 hours must be completed at ASU)
• 3 semester hours credit in Exceptional Children
• 3 semester hours credit in Educational Technology
• 2 semesters of intensive internship in a school setting
• Completion of a professional portfolio during the capstone course
• Successful completion of the Georgia Certification Exam examination will yield school certification in the state of Georgia. (For candidates without a Bachelor’s degree in Education, the PRAXIS I must also be taken.) The student applies to the ASU Certification Officer for certification after completion of all requirements for the degree.

http://www.aug.edu/registrar_va/catalog/2006/cat0607.pdf page 113

By the way re: Your statement that this isn't about religion:


When Keeton asked why her biblical ethical views would disqualify her competence as a counselor, Anderson-Wiley at one point responded, "Christians see this population as sinners." Though Keeton stated that all people are sinners, including herself, Anderson-Wiley told her that she had a choice of standing by the Bible or by the American Counseling Association Code of Ethics. Keeton chose the Bible

- This was from the original article

Anderson-Wiley is an associate professor who also oversees student education and discipline and is therefor an employee of a public institution expressing religious discrimination.

 

[ConHog]

When that starts happening, it's over. Linking back to previous comments. Pathetic.

I asked him to because I hadn't seen his earlier comments on a particular issue and wouldn't even have known where to look but was interested.

I thank you Geaux

 

[AllieBaba]

I must have missed it, and don't care to dig through the crap again, can you recap your opinion that matter?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2542765-post380.html

Interesting that you believe that.

Now here are the facts on what is in the College's handbook as regards graduation from the College of Education with a Masters

School Counseling Concentration
• 48 semester hours of academic work (39 hours must be completed at ASU)
• 3 semester hours credit in Exceptional Children
• 3 semester hours credit in Educational Technology
• 2 semesters of intensive internship in a school setting
• Completion of a professional portfolio during the capstone course
• Successful completion of the Georgia Certification Exam examination will yield school certification in the state of Georgia. (For candidates without a Bachelor’s degree in Education, the PRAXIS I must also be taken.) The student applies to the ASU Certification Officer for certification after completion of all requirements for the degree.

http://www.aug.edu/registrar_va/catalog/2006/cat0607.pdf page 113

By the way re: Your statement that this isn't about religion:


When Keeton asked why her biblical ethical views would disqualify her competence as a counselor, Anderson-Wiley at one point responded, "Christians see this population as sinners." Though Keeton stated that all people are sinners, including herself, Anderson-Wiley told her that she had a choice of standing by the Bible or by the American Counseling Association Code of Ethics. Keeton chose the Bible

- This was from the original article

Anderson-Wiley is an associate professor who also oversees student education and discipline and is therefor an employee of a public institution expressing religious discrimination.

"B-b-but...it's not ABOUT religion!"

Despite the fact that both sides have stated that it is.

Hello.

 

[The Infidel]

I thank you Geaux

Ahh Geaux 2 hell

 

[AllieBaba]

Conhog said that, not me, btw.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The larger point is, your religious beliefs don't get to trump the standards of a profession you want to enter.

If you can't buy the Christian Scientist scenario, then how about this:

"You are a Jehovah's Witness in medical school who believes blood is sacred and refuses to do a transfusion on a patient."

Or:

"You are a Rastafarian in medical school that believes it's your religious right to walk around and see patients with a doobie hanging out of your mouth."

Jehovah's Witnesses actually have some sound medical studies backing them up about the transfusions, not that any of them will ever enroll in medical school.

There are sound medical studies backing up the notion that blood shouldn't be transfused because it makes God angry?

I don't think so.

There are plenty of studies about the dangers of blood transfusion (I should know, I am a co-author on a paper that we are trying to publish about blood transfusion), but it has nothing to do with anyone's religious beliefs.

Frankly, I find it annoying that a patient would rather die of shock then three units of blood. However, I recognize that it's their decision and not mine and that my personal opinion on the matter is not germane to the issue.

See how simple that is? I don't get to foist my personal opinions on people in a professional setting.

Do you have a problem being honest? I stated that there is medical evidence that transfusions are not the best option, Not that it makes God angry. I don't believe JWs will tell you it makes him angry either, at least most of them do not.

Let me ask you, if someone comes in who you think needs blood, and they have a medical bracelet that tells you they do not want blood, do you still try to convince them to accept blood? If you do you are actually foisting your personal opinions on them, even if they argue you down in the end.

Believe it or not, there are actually people out there who refuse blood solely on their informed knowledge that transfusions are bad for you, and not because of their religion.

 

[logical4u]

logical4U, it is implied in seeking admission to a graduate degree program that mastering the material is a pre-requisite to graduation.

there is a difference between 'mastering material' and believing along 'school' lines.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So you'd support a Wahhibist having a top secret security clearance and access to state secrets?

I didn't think so.

Why should I have a problem with that? Why do you have a problem with it?

Other than the fact that Wahibbism is linked to AQ and Sunni extremism and that might not be the kind of person who should be trusted with launch codes?

Nothing. Nothing at all.

Seriously though, the government routinely denies things to people based on their beliefs and associations.

So, you want to deny him a clearance based solely on his religion, despite the fact that he was able to get through the massive background investigation that investigated everything he has every done, and all of his friends, and cleared him of any ties to any group that might be a danger to the US. And you want to claim that you are not biased against religion in any way, shape, or form.

Good luck with that.

 

[ConHog]

logical4U, it is implied in seeking admission to a graduate degree program that mastering the material is a pre-requisite to graduation.

there is a difference between 'mastering material' and believing along 'school' lines.

No shit, how many of us had classes in which we thought the material was bullshit, and the professor was stupid for having his/her opinion, but in order to pass the class we aped said professor's opinion in the classroom setting? I would bet virtually everyone who has attended college.

 

[geauxtohell]

I must have missed it, and don't care to dig through the crap again, can you recap your opinion that matter?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2542765-post380.html

Interesting that you believe that.

Now here are the facts on what is in the College's handbook as regards graduation from the College of Education with a Masters

School Counseling Concentration
• 48 semester hours of academic work (39 hours must be completed at ASU)
• 3 semester hours credit in Exceptional Children
• 3 semester hours credit in Educational Technology
• 2 semesters of intensive internship in a school setting
• Completion of a professional portfolio during the capstone course
• Successful completion of the Georgia Certification Exam examination will yield school certification in the state of Georgia. (For candidates without a Bachelor’s degree in Education, the PRAXIS I must also be taken.) The student applies to the ASU Certification Officer for certification after completion of all requirements for the degree.

http://www.aug.edu/registrar_va/catalog/2006/cat0607.pdf page 113

By the way re: Your statement that this isn't about religion:


When Keeton asked why her biblical ethical views would disqualify her competence as a counselor, Anderson-Wiley at one point responded, "Christians see this population as sinners." Though Keeton stated that all people are sinners, including herself, Anderson-Wiley told her that she had a choice of standing by the Bible or by the American Counseling Association Code of Ethics. Keeton chose the Bible

- This was from the original article

Anderson-Wiley is an associate professor who also oversees student education and discipline and is therefor an employee of a public institution expressing religious discrimination.

Of course credit hours are factored into graduation requirements. To get credit hours, you have to pass the class. Not just pay tuition and show up. That's the issue here. Did Keeton meet the standards? If not, then why not and was it fair?

Also, the OP is heavily biased towards Keeton and as it stands, all we have right now is the word of Keeton. So I am not ready to buy that as the (pun intended) gospel truth.

I want to hear what the school has to say on this. If Keeton is being punished for simply expressing her opinion in class or saying something deemed "not politically correct" by the school, then I think she is in the right and the school is in the wrong. However, if she was being failed because she couldn't write a research paper without turning it into an OPED then I think the school is right.

It's that simple.

 

[ConHog]

Why should I have a problem with that? Why do you have a problem with it?

Other than the fact that Wahibbism is linked to AQ and Sunni extremism and that might not be the kind of person who should be trusted with launch codes?

Nothing. Nothing at all.

Seriously though, the government routinely denies things to people based on their beliefs and associations.

So, you want to deny him a clearance based solely on his religion, despite the fact that he was able to get through the massive background investigation that investigated everything he has every done, and all of his friends, and cleared him of any ties to any group that might be a danger to the US. And you want to claim that you are not biased against religion in any way, shape, or form.

Good luck with that.

In principal we agree on this, but you do admit that a Wahhabi isn't likely to pass such a background check don't you?

 

[Madeline]

Yes, there is logical4U. But what is at issue is the student's ability to perform her duties as a public school counselor in conformity with the standard of care. In other words, her behavior, not necessarily her beliefs.

Let's say I want to be a lawyer, and secretly I believe that suborning perjury is a jim-dandy way to defend a client. In every law school in the US (to the best of my knowledge) I must pass an ethics course to graduate. If I take this stance on the exam, my professor will flunk me.

I can believe it. I just cannot use that POV in a student setting and still expect to pass. See the difference?

 

[geauxtohell]

When that starts happening, it's over. Linking back to previous comments. Pathetic.

I asked him to because I hadn't seen his earlier comments on a particular issue and wouldn't even have known where to look but was interested.

I thank you Geaux

You are welcome.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

We weren't discussing choice, we were discussing whether it was a mental illness, by the way I don't agree that it i s, I think it is a choice though.

I don't believe the overwhelming consensus is that it isn't either. Think you're wrong on that one.

The overwhelming consensus is that homosexuality is not a mental illness and is not a personal choice.

See the DSM IV or the American Psychiatric Association for further clarification on the matter.

That overwhelming consensus is not based on science, it is based on anecdotal evidence. The problem with psychology is that it is far from being scientific, so arguing that a bunch of people who are not scientists have some sort of scientific consensus is ludicrous.