Slade3200
Diamond Member
- Jan 13, 2016
- 67,017
- 17,035
- 2,190
At least he answered questions. Biden just hit us with a stupid partisan stimulus bill. You can see here why its stupid and none of the leftists here have been able to argue the counterpoint.
Stupidity of the Democrats and their $1.927 Trillion Bill
You cannot get any dumber. Honestly...approx 300mil people will receive $1,400 but will owe $5,839 for the $1,400....LOL Math is as follows: $422bil of the stimulus is the $1,400 per person so that results in ~301.5 mil people getting it. Now the entire Bill is $1.927Trn...divide that by the...www.usmessageboard.com
But why won't Biden take tough questions on both the stimulus and the crisis at the border?
Love or hate Trump or tolerate only, Trump always took questions. Combative? Yes. Answered them? Yes.
Biden not yet holding a formal news conference raises accountability questions
The White House still hasn't set a date for President Joe Biden to hold his first news conference.abcnews.go.com
I will argue a counterpoint if you’d like... you are implying that a new tax will be applied and taken from tax payers to fund the stimulus bill... but that is not the case, unless you have info that says otherwise... do you?
What new tax? Has zero to do with this thread or the link to the stimulus bill. The argument was to just give all the money to the people. Not $1,400.
You linked to an argument saying that Dems voted for a bill that gives them $1400 but makes them owe $5800 and were looking for a counter argument. Or did I read that wrong??
There is no counter arguments that is fact. Unless you presume we never pay back the debt.
Yes that would be my presumption... well not in the direct traditional sense that you’ve implied.
And you would be wrong. My kids will be responsible for this debt. As will yours. It doesn’t just magically disappear. We need fiscal responsibility. So my point was if I am responsible for this debt then give me the full amount of the monies. Not me precisely since I did not qualify but if I had...
Your presumption of we don’t have to pay this debt back is not only dangerous but borderline infuriating.
The debt would exist while our children are alive yes, just as the debt has existed throughout your entire life... how has it impacted you? How do you think it will impact them and why do you think it will be different?
It has only been this high for 13 years? It has impacted all of us. Instead of building high speed rails and other infrastructure improvements we spent monies on useless wars and paying for bad decisions. Our infrastructure sucks. Go to an airport in Dubai and compare it Logan or LAX. It’s a fucking joke. China is coming for us. 13 years is a tiny timeframe mind you. It will impact them in that taxes will have to be raised and expenses reduced as in they may lose SS or have it significantly reduced. They and their spouses will both have to work vs having one home to raise the kids. Because we let our schools go to shit they will likely have to send their kids to private school.
So yes it has impacted me. And you. But you don’t see it. It will certainly impact them.
13 years? No dude the debt has been like this for decades. Those things you listed were not effected by the debt, they were just policy decisions. As we have seen with the pandemic, we can pump out trillions at the drop of a hat. The ability to build has always been there. Congress just hasn’t decided to do it
Nope 13 years has it gone off the rails
You should check your stats. If you are using different criteria than percentage increase then let me know what it is
View attachment 468130
I am using absolute dollars. $2 to $4 is a 100% increase but still only $4. Do you have any finance acumen? Chart absolute dollars under Obama and Trump. This is a fairly recent spending spree.
Let me give you another tid bit for you to think about in regards to your argument in the OP. You clamed that people were getting paid $1400 in exchange for owing $5800, right? Well my first point is that they won't need to ever pay the $5800 directly unless of course the bill has a tax applied to fund the intitiative which this one does not. But secondly lets look at the $1400 they got paid.... You need to track that money to understand that it is not a sunk cost but rather revenue producing.
Lets say Joe gets the $1400 stimulus check and uses it to build a new deck so he spends it at the local lumber store. The owner of the lumber store pays sales tax on the purchase and then uses the money to pay his employee where he pays employment tax and then the employee who gets the payment pays income tax. That employee decides to fix his HVAC with that money so it then goes to the HVAC repair guy... Sales tax, employment tax and income tax is applied... Are you getting the picture on how that $1400 pays for itself plus more as it is USED to flow throughout the economy?? Its how trickle up works. It stagnates when somebody gives it to their hedge fund and it sits accruing interest in an investment account for decades which is where much of the wealth that the top earners collect goes. Hopefully some of it comes back to create jobs and business expansion but we can clearly see that greater sums of wealth is being collected by the top dogs than is coming back.
So why not give everyone $10k? It pays for itself?
You tell me. I was hoping you'd actually put some thought into what I said.
I have. You tell me. You say all the money comes back anyway. So let's give EVERYONE $10k...hell make it $100k.
You have put zero thought into it. What if that $1,400 goes into buying drugs. Zero taxes. The drug dealer, takes it and burns it while doing smack....I mean you are just making stuff up now.
You are the one who presented the $1400 as a sunk cost and the $5800 as an owed debt both of which are not accurate presentations. I explained why. We dive into plans and budgets and policy suggestions on the best course of action and talk about those factors you just brought up, however, you challenged us idiot lefties to try and provide a counterpoint to your statement I that's what I did. You weren't accurate in your breakdown of the stimulus. It sounds like you might have a better understanding now so you're welcome. I know you won't admit any of this but I know that you know that I know that you know.
You're being a dink. I understand it very well as I do this for a living. We paid $6k each to give some people $1,400. That is pretty stupid. Why not just give everyone eligible $6k and have them follow your guide and circulate the monies in the economy? Sounds like you still refused to answer that question. We are going in circles. My guess is that your start-ups failed as you have zero financial acumen.
No we didn't pay $6K to get $1400... Jesus, did you not absorb anything I said?!?! The $1400 comes back as revenue every time it is transferred to somebody else. So that deducts from the $6K... Not to mention much of that $6K are investments similar to the $1400 that flow throughout the economy. Is all this going over your head because you are presenting very skewed versions of reality. Are you being argumentative or do you not understand how this works?
He doesn't understanhd.
He being Slate. I'll ask you since you cannot spell understand and he won't answer. If money is free and helps the economy why not just issue $10k to every eligible American vs. $1.4k?
Thank you
What is this free money thing that you think is real. Do you not understand our finance system?
Do you? I understand it very well. Eventually the debt has to be paid back.
So where’s the “free money”?
People who will pay it back aren’t the ones who
Are getting it.
Who are those people?
For example my parents got it as they are retired and qualified but they are elderly. So I and my kids will be paying off those monies.
How are you and your kids paying off those monies? Specifically? Were you charged new taxes?
That is my guess. I believe that eventually we will have a 1-2% federal tax on newly purchased goods to start paying down the debt. Cannot just accumulate forever as China is eating our lunch in terms how efficient they are.
A good gauge is SSI Withholding. I used to pay my maximum by around March when I worked for an employer vs. myself. Now look at the growth. By the time my kids start it will be around $200k? Why? SS is underfunded. You'll see the same with our debt. We will have to pay it back and IMO that means increase in existing taxes and new taxes, yes. I disagree with you that we can borrow and deficit spend forever. China is threatening our currency and the threat is real.
View attachment 468863
Ok well China’s debt is at about 335% of GDP... WAY higher than ours, so if your fear is China eating our lunch then why do you want to go the opposite way?
How big is China's debt and who owns it?
China has increased its effort to reduce its domestic debt to curb financial risks, but its total debt is reported to have hit 335 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2020.www.scmp.com
China's debt problem
A look at China's debt as a percentage of GDP since 2006.fingfx.thomsonreuters.com
Because their number in absolute dollars is smaller and their plan is to overtake us as the world currency.
View attachment 468872
View attachment 468874
Your chart also incorporates household debt. You aren't comparing apples to apples.
You just said it man their absolute dollar numbers are smaller. That makes ours larger and the more currency we have the more stable we are as a world currency. As China tries to grow their currency and reach the magnitude of the dollar They are moving at a much higher deficit spending rate. Is that what you’re threatened by? Because you’re preaching that we should do the opposite.
I am threatened by the fact that the world will see their country and currency as more stable than ours. A country divided cannot stand. They don't have to spend more than us as their projects are cheaper. They don't have the union and bureaucracy that we do, which adds to cost. See below:
Also see this link. Very eye opening.
China vs United States: Economy > Debt Facts and Stats
External, Current LCU, Public debt, share of GDP, Gross government debt, share of GDP, Per capita and 40 More Interesting Facts and Statswww.nationmaster.com
Your belief is that we may borrow an infinite amount and I disagree. Not sure why we are both beating a dead horse. Are you trolling as you said you tend to do on this site?
You are worried that we will lose to China because of our spending and debt. I just showed you that chinas deficit is worse than ours. Their debt to GDP is worse than ours. So if deficit spending jeapordizes the stability and value of currency then why are you worried about China?
No you didn’t. It was a false conflation. You’re wrong. Are you trolling again? That chart and link you didn’t read took into account all of the personal debt the citizens carry not just govt debt. Why are you being an asshole on purpose? I explained this to you in detail. You are annoying. I believe you’re arguing for the sake of arguing. I ask For the 100th time. How much debt would worry you? Is there a number? Yes or no?
I’m worried about our current debt. The numbers feel too high to me.
If you don’t like my numbers then provide your own. What is Chinas debt and deficit and how does it compare to the USA?
China vs United States: Economy > Debt Facts and Stats
External, Current LCU, Public debt, share of GDP, Gross government debt, share of GDP, Per capita and 40 More Interesting Facts and Statswww.nationmaster.com
Educate yourself. Please!
Yes I looked at that. The USA is massively larger. It’s like comparing Amazon to Panda Express. What point are you trying to make with that?
2020 GDP sets China up to overtake US as No. 1 economy sooner than expected | Fortune
The pandemic is accelerating the timeline for China to become the world's top economy.www.google.com
Is Panda Express surpassing Amazon in 2028?
That depends... I hear that have a new recipe for cream cheese won tons that’s bomb digity.
Really though. How do you think China is going to pass us? In GDP?
Read the article I linked....it’s in English. Let me know if it is too complex or confusing for you.
Yes I read your article and I'm looking for your feedback. Your article was talking about GDP. Is that your concern as well? Because China is bolstering their GDP by massively spending and sky rocketing their debt at a higher rate than we are. They have literally built ghost cities... entire cities that sit largely occupied. Seriously, look it up. So if it is GDP that you are worried about then why are you pissing about deficit spending? If we ran a surplus we would be burning money out of our economy and shrinking it, right? So what's your priority here? Debt, GDP, Currency value?? You are all over the place.
Inside The Ghost Cities Of China That Feel Like An Eerie, Futuristic Dystopia
China's rapid urbanization has backfired, leaving behind enormous — and uninhabited — cities.allthatsinteresting.com
You’re trolling. We are done here. You’re being an asshole. I have told you from the fucking beginning you stupid ass leftist that if China replaces us with their currency and us meaning the USD then the value of the $$ goes down and we need to start repaying our debt at a record pace. That means new taxes and higher existing taxes. That means people and companies hoard their cash and don’t spend as much and it means the Govt has to cut back as well. You’re talking Depression NOT recession. That is my fear and this is why we need to stop deficit spending. Keep in mind, small business failure Slate, China owns most of the manufacturing and its military prowess is on par with ours. If the Yuan becomes the world currency we are fucked.
We are done here. I have explained this to you countless times. You have zero finance and or business acumen. None. Keep voting for those who deficit spend and run up our debt while deflecting via the racism argument. See what happens.
Im not trolling, I'm asking legit questions and bringing up legit points but you're getting angry because you can't answer the questions or explain the arguments you're trying to make. You are worried about China taking over the world currency but fail to show understanding of economics or understanding of what China is actually doing to make a move to compete with the US dollar. You want us to stop deficit spending because you think that weakens the dollar yet you can't show how it does that. You can't account for the fact that China deficit spends at a higher magnitude than the US yet you see them as gaining on us. These are legit points, but you're done and want to bail from the debate instead of digging in and gaining actual understanding about what's going on. You fold to a challenge, that's weak.
I did answer you and several times. You are fucking trolling. I have shown articles, gave you my own logic and thoughts and you agreed that our level of current debt makes you uncomfortable. I won this debate. Why? Because Biden will keep adding to it and make you that much more uncomfortable.
See that's your problem right there... You are here to win and own liberals, you aren't here to learn and open your mind. I could give a rats ass about "winning"... You win, bravo. Make yourself a certificate and hang it on your wall.
I'm asking legit questions that you don't know the answers to. Your links don't provide answers they add to the confusion of your arguments as I've pointed out. You clearly don't understand major economic systems and equate it all to your own business/personal finance. You don't understand what factors effect currency value, or how deficit spending works, what factors make China more of a threat... Because the things they are doing are the things you want us to stop doing. Your ego is in your way. Nobody gives a shit about who "wins and loses" on this message board. You are either here to emote or you are here to learn and educate yourself. You seem to be here for the first reason. Do yourself a favor and open up your mind. Lean into the hard questions and seek answers. Don't get defensive and dismissive, that does you no service.
I will dumb it down. China is trying to surpass us as the worlds currency. They control most of the manufacturing, their middle class is the same size as our entire population, they have a more advanced infrastructure and their military prowess is almost on par with us. Our level of debt is concerning to me because if they do overtake us as the global currency the value of the USD will decline substantially and we will have to start paying down our debt rapidly. How much more concisely can I explain this to you? Please tell me.
You can’t, that was a very nicely formulated argument and I give you kudos for it. My response would be... if you see chinas acceleration coming from manufacturing, infrastructure and military then why not promote US investment into those areas? If we cut spending and remove currency from our system then we decelerate our growth and help China catch us quicker.
These areas you point out that China is gaining on us with have come from their own deficit spending, at a much higher rate than we have been spending. You understand that don’t you?
