I want a logical argument from the left for why this man's point of view is wrong.

[Confounding]

Of course we are making a humanitarian difference.

Not really.

That is what we, as a country are known for.

You should ask the rest of the world if they agree with your assessment.

 

[koshergrl]

False premise from the first two minutes.

Elaborate?

I mean it's a false premise. The notion that we don't accept enough of a percentage from the huge pool of economically challenged foreigners is a false premise and he starts out as if it's an established fact. That is all I need to hear. I dislike liars and snake oil salesmen.

The point he's making is no amount of immigration into the United States is going to make an impact on world poverty, ever. It's impossible. We're only hurting our own economy, so why do it at all?

Ahhh..so it's an argument meant to sway the scumbags who are encouraging criminals and traffickers to traipse in and out of our country at will.

Logic doesn't work on them .

 

[koshergrl]

The point has already been made several times that our economy is running out of use for uneducated labor as technology improves.

That would not be an argument against immigration as much as an argument for reforming our educational system. The children of these immigrants will be products of this education system in a decade.10 years. That's not far off. And the facts show they perform better than the average American, as they are more aspirational. So,if anything, increasing immigration would help alleviate this problem.

That is some magical thinking there, bubba.

 

[Confounding]

I would also show the benefit of immigration to this country, using facts, to undermine his appeals to emotion that it hurts our economy.

Do you have access to nonpartisan information that shows indisputably that letting millions of low education immigrants come to America every year is a net positive for our economy and way of life in what is about to be a post-labor world?

I do not, nor would such silly, general ideas be valid if I tried to make stats fit them. I will dismiss your request as a tactic of avoiding the arguments presented to you this far.

Right, and you don't have that because it doesn't exist, because uneducated workers by the millions is not something our economy needs. We're having UBI discussions because we recognize that labor is about to disappear.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I would also show the benefit of immigration to this country, using facts, to undermine his appeals to emotion that it hurts our economy.

Do you have access to nonpartisan information that shows indisputably that letting millions of low education immigrants come to America every year is a net positive for our economy and way of life in what is about to be a post-labor world?

I do not, nor would such silly, general ideas be valid if I tried to make stats fit them. I will dismiss your request as a tactic of avoiding the arguments presented to you this far.

Right, and you don't have that because it doesn't exist, because uneducated workers by the millions is not something our economy needs. We're having UBI discussions because we recognize that labor is about to disappear.

Actually, it is something our economy needs, as they perform better in our education system than does the average American. I also argued pretty clearly that we need more, young workers to fund our aging demographic. So, there are two reasons our economy does need immigrants.

 

[Confounding]

That would not be an argument against immigration as much as an argument for reforming our educational system. The children of these immigrants will be products of this education system in a decade.10 years. That's not far off. And the facts show they perform better than the average American, as they are more aspirational. So,if anything, increasing immigration would help alleviate this problem.

Bringing the needy of the world here by the millions and educating all of their children is a bit of a costly venture considering our serious economic problems, no? And there's still that inconvenient detail about the adults getting here not having an education and wanting to join our shrinking labor force.

 

[Confounding]

Actually, it is something our economy needs, as they perform better in our education system than does the average American. I also argued pretty clearly that we need more, young workers to fund our aging demographic. So, there are two reasons our economy does need immigrants.

Are we on track for some kind of youth/old age crisis like Japan? Your argument that bringing immigrants here is good because in 20 years their kids will be educated is pretty weak dude. They have a significant and detrimental impact on our economy. Whether it's right or wrong, we'd be better off if we closed off and focused on helping Americans.

 

[Mac1958]

I've never heard anyone, ever, say that the immigration issue is about "about tackling world poverty", which is the very foundation of his point.

Tossing straw man arguments into a complicated, contentious issue only drags us further away from honestly and effectively addressing it.

Sure, not in those terms. But if it's not about tackling immigrant poverty (or improving immigrant quality of life rather) then what is it about? No one is coming to America because it provides less opportunity or is just a lateral move for them. They're doing it to improve their lives in some way, usually though employment opportunity, quality of living conditions or less crime/danger.

On the flipside, i don't see why any country owes any immigrant the chance to live/work in that country regardless of what that immigrant is faced with elsewhere. If a country is sovereign then they deserve to make a judgment on anyone who's going to be accepted in as part of that country. The idea that we owe the world and it's people anything is a flawed one.

Agreed. We just don't seem to be able with deal with pretty any much any issue right now, that's the freakin' problem. There is a point of equilibrium on most issues, but once political ideology takes over, it's nothing more than a food fight.

Yes, we absolutely must protect our borders, and any Democrat who pretends there's not a significant political element to this latest outrage is either lying or delusional. They're gonna milk this for all it's worth, and don't be surprised when their outrage drops a bit after the election.

At the same time, conservatives have to understand that they're inviting this stuff with their wall, among other things. They could bend a bit and come up with some workable solutions, but instead, they're just punching back. I admit I don't understand partisan politics, but I don't see the point of all this.
.

Just curious, what's the appropriate response, Goldilocks?

Personal insults, name-calling, spin, distortions, Straw Man arguments, deflection and outright lies.

So I'd say you guys are really nailing it here. Things are great, thanks so much.
.

 

[BULLDOG]

not this shit again

I've never heard anyone say allowing immigrants would reduce world poverty. Where did that goober come up with such a dumb idea? He hasn't built a straw man. He built a gumball man. Is this all RWNJs have to spend their time on?

Why do we let in millions of people annually if we're not actually making a humanitarian difference? It certainly has a very real impact on our economy.

More nonsense.

Immigrants built this country, they are our greatest asset; we "let them in" because it makes us stronger as a Nation.

Poor and uneducated immigrants that come here and immediately sign up for food stamps and whatever other services they can get are not helping our economy. I support social safety nets, but to have and maintain decent ones we need to not let the poor of the world have access to them.

Some do require assistance when they first get here. Most don't stay in that situation, and are soon productive members of society, no matter what Hannity told you.

 

[BULLDOG]

No. That is not the point of the OP.

That is my point, and I used that video to help make it.

Move that goalpost. It's what you do.

 

[Confounding]

Some do require assistance when they first get here. Most don't stay in that situation, and are soon productive members of society

Just for the sake of clarity do you have a link to verifiable information that shows what you've claimed?

no matter what Hannity told you.

I've never once watched Sean Hannity. You might not like my ideas but at least they are my own. Nobody put them there for me.

 

[Confounding]

No. That is not the point of the OP.

That is my point, and I used that video to help make it.

Move that goalpost. It's what you do.

It's called a leading argument. I get you to make a few admissions and face a few realities you don't like. and then from there I surprise attack you with an argument that relies heavily on facts you have already accepted.

 

[BlindBoo]

History of NumbersUSA

 

[Stormy Daniels]

He says the desperately poor can't get here. Mexicans that cross the border still tend to be poor and uneducated, perhaps not as much as somebody from the plains of Africa. Our economy doesn't need these people. It's a detriment to us.

Nothing he says is about illegal immigration. The entire video is about legal immigration. You are confusing apples with oranges.

Most of the legal Mexican immigrants are poor and uneducated too, and then when they come here they take manual labor jobs. I'm using the fact that we can't make a humanitarian difference to ask the question "Why take these people in at all?"

Then the aforementioned 'fault in logic' you asked for is something called a complex question. There is nothing to imply that current legal immigration options are permitted for humanitarian reasons.

 

[Mac1958]

I've never heard anyone, ever, say that the immigration issue is about "about tackling world poverty", which is the very foundation of his point.

Tossing straw man arguments into a complicated, contentious issue only drags us further away from honestly and effectively addressing it.

Sure, not in those terms. But if it's not about tackling immigrant poverty (or improving immigrant quality of life rather) then what is it about? No one is coming to America because it provides less opportunity or is just a lateral move for them. They're doing it to improve their lives in some way, usually though employment opportunity, quality of living conditions or less crime/danger.

On the flipside, i don't see why any country owes any immigrant the chance to live/work in that country regardless of what that immigrant is faced with elsewhere. If a country is sovereign then they deserve to make a judgment on anyone who's going to be accepted in as part of that country. The idea that we owe the world and it's people anything is a flawed one.

Agreed. We just don't seem to be able with deal with pretty any much any issue right now, that's the freakin' problem. There is a point of equilibrium on most issues, but once political ideology takes over, it's nothing more than a food fight.

Yes, we absolutely must protect our borders, and any Democrat who pretends there's not a significant political element to this latest outrage is either lying or delusional. They're gonna milk this for all it's worth, and don't be surprised when their outrage drops a bit after the election.

At the same time, conservatives have to understand that they're inviting this stuff with their wall, among other things. They could bend a bit and come up with some workable solutions, but instead, they're just punching back. I admit I don't understand partisan politics, but I don't see the point of all this.
.

Just takes some digging on why someone thinks what they do. Most people don't want to put the intellectual capital into thinking through the different angles of a particular thing. Most people who want open borders and tons of immigrants want it for little more than "it would be nice of us" ignoring what "nice" and "us" really mean in that context. People who don't want immigrants might be making assumptions about what you mean by "immigrant", and thus could be that they don't like brown people at the core of it.

I don't agree with your "inviting this stuff with the wall" particularly. Would a wall be significantly more expensive than a fence of some sort, maybe. But, i don't see a problem with some sort of barrier. It's not unlike putting up a fence around your yard as some level of privacy and security. It wouldn't solve all the problems but it would help to some degree. Of course, that's under the assumption that the government/country stays largely as it is today. An overhaul of welfare, education and the end of the drug way would likely lead to not needing a barrier at all.

The wall just seems like a massive, divisive, multi-billion dollar band-aid to me.

What are the biggest issues here? In my mind, the two biggest problems are (1) the fact that so many people are so desperate to escape the various shit holes to our south, and (2) we have employers who will hire them while we mostly pretend that we don't see anything.

When do we as a country (Left & Right) start holding countries to our south more accountable? Why are their "leaders" so proud to help their people escape their miserable, fucked up, corrupt countries? Why aren't we holding our employers accountable for paying these people? How long would these people stay, how many would stop coming, if they knew they couldn't find work here?

There are other issues, obviously, but all I see is screaming and finger-pointing and no constructive communication here.
.

 

[Confounding]

There is nothing to imply that current legal immigration options are permitted for humanitarian reasons.

Then why? It's not useful to our economy, especially as we move closer to a post-labor world.

 

[koshergrl]

There is nothing to imply that current legal immigration options are permitted for humanitarian reasons.

Then why? It's not useful to our economy, especially as we move closer to a post-labor world.

We are never going to be a post labor world.

 

[BULLDOG]

Of course we are making a humanitarian difference.

Not really.

That is what we, as a country are known for.

You should ask the rest of the world if they agree with your assessment.

Yes. Trump's kidnapping of all those children at the Mexican border is certainly reducing our respect from the world. Trump's disgusting behavior, and previous horrendous actions by politicians don't reflect our historic integrity.

 

[Stormy Daniels]

There is nothing to imply that current legal immigration options are permitted for humanitarian reasons.

Then why? It's not useful to our economy, especially as we move closer to a post-labor world.

That logical fault is called moving the goal post.

 

[Confounding]

There is nothing to imply that current legal immigration options are permitted for humanitarian reasons.

Then why? It's not useful to our economy, especially as we move closer to a post-labor world.

We are never going to be a post labor world.

You're wrong, but whatever. Even if you're right, which you're not, the need for labor will still shrink dramatically in the years to come. We shouldn't be bringing more uneducated people here.