Ideas for fixing minimum wage.

[task0778]

Here's the deal, Toronado: if I thought raising the M-Wage was a good idea and automatically keeping it close to the CPI or some other index or basket of indexes was a wise move, then I'd agree with you. BUT - raising the M-Wage is in my opinion a really stupid idea that is a political device rather than an economic plus. The truth is that the MW actually hurts more people and businesses than it helps, and so it is really dumb to automatically do things that are a bad idea.

This is an issue that does not belong at the federal level; it should remain a local issue. Businesses, cities, and states can do whatever they think is in their best interests and whatever that is should be up to them and NOT some a-hole in Washington that is trying to get re-elected in another state.

 

[Natural Citizen]

For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something. Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.

We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.

We COULD attach it to some measurement of Board of Directors pay/reimbursement packages for humorous effect.

Where would my first idea about the Consumer Price Index go wrong or is there a better measure?

Let me ask this. Who exactly is we? You mean government? Too much of that is what got us into the mess we're in now, why would we want more of it?

How about we end the Fed and give free-markets a chance to try to get it done for a change?

 

[danielpalos]

IF you think the cause of the housing bubble was the hike I think you should be for my plan.

My idea is to prevent these knee jerk hikes and just make it a smooth percentage every year. Whatever the GDP or CPI or board of directors pay or whatever goes up minimum wage goes up. This way there are no surges based on the whims of whoever is in Congress trying to win reelection.

So the bottom line is that you're all good with The State engaging in price fixing.

That's all we really need to know.

Compensation for capitalism's natural rate of unemployment is automatic.

 

[Picaro]

Employers will never ever pay anybody 'what they're worth', they pay as little as they can, and don't have the least qualms about using govt. to drive down labor's bargaining power and keeping the power dynamics as far away from being 'equal' as they can. there is no 'free market checks and balances' in real life, not anywhere; only propagandists keep claiming there is.

That is the reason for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and unemployment compensation at the equivalent to fourteen dollars an hour for simply being unemployed in our At-Will employment States.

Actually the reason is so many ass kissing suck ups work for close to what it should be they're all pissed off they won't look so 'skilled and speshul' if it got raised to reflect real inflation. They need somebody to look down on, and a lot of people making $7 an hour or so makes them feel like they're big time players or something, never mind they just look like petty venal brats.

Ship all of the high productivity jobs overseas or fill them with illiegals and green card rent a slave gimmicks, and you're left with a 'economy' where over 85% of 'new jobs' are part time low wage jobs, no matter how many people have college degrees n stuff. You have shit for disposable incomes, so they encourage large amounts of debt bubbles.

 

[dblack]

Dear Tornado Person:

No intelligent person wants to significantly increase the minimum wage. Notice that when the Democrats had control of both house and the White House in Obama's first term, NOTHING was done on the minimum wage.

The minimum wage ITSELF is an economic abomination. The price of EVERYTHING should be determined by the marketplace and everyone's right of contract. If I am willing to sweep floors for $5/hr, and there is an employer who desires to employ me at that rate to sweep his floors, WHAT RIGHT DOES GOVERNMENT HAVE TO STEP IN AND SAY WE CANNOT ENTER INTO THIS CONTRACT?

Seriously. How does Government get the right to do this?

There is a natural minimum wage in every place at all times. If I tried to hire a fast food worker in NYC for $8/hr, I would get no takers. $10, probably not. But there is a wage at which I could get the workers I want, and they would be willing to work for that wage. The numbers would be less in Keokuk, Iowa.

Democrats like to point to local Minimum Wage laws that are. harmless, to "prove" that increasing the minimum wage doesn't harm anyone. But they choose locations where the natural minimum wage is already far above the legal minimum wage, so that the local law is actually irrelevant. But look at what's happening in Seattle. Hours are being cut, business near the city limits are closing due to competition, people are losing their jobs.

And remember that the people who are hurt by this are the people at the bottom of the economic totem pole - the ones who can least afford the hit. People with no HS diploma, single parents working part time to make ends meet. And so on.

Any time the Government (or any supervening force) steps in and imposes a price (wage) that is higher than the natural minimum, three things occur: (1) the consumers of that commodity use less of it (i.e., hours and headcount are cut), (b) the consumers seek alternatives (automation, self-service), and (3) a black market is formed by people who will skirt the law for their own benefit.

Every minimum wage increase will reduce the chances of high school kids getting part time and summer jobs. At $15/hr, there are a LOT of retired people, working mothers, and others who had given up work, who will come out of the woodwork. And what employer would prefer a pimply high school kid to a retired grandmother?

Yep. Minimum wage is just populist nonsense.

 

[Toronado3800]

IF you think the cause of the housing bubble was the hike I think you should be for my plan.

My idea is to prevent these knee jerk hikes and just make it a smooth percentage every year. Whatever the GDP or CPI or board of directors pay or whatever goes up minimum wage goes up. This way there are no surges based on the whims of whoever is in Congress trying to win reelection.

So the bottom line is that you're all good with The State engaging in price fixing.

That's all we really need to know.

Make the end of your statement say ..."engaging in price fixing by setting a minimum wage" and I'll agree strongly.

 

[danielpalos]

Employers will never ever pay anybody 'what they're worth', they pay as little as they can, and don't have the least qualms about using govt. to drive down labor's bargaining power and keeping the power dynamics as far away from being 'equal' as they can. there is no 'free market checks and balances' in real life, not anywhere; only propagandists keep claiming there is.

That is the reason for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and unemployment compensation at the equivalent to fourteen dollars an hour for simply being unemployed in our At-Will employment States.

Actually the reason is so many ass kissing suck ups work for close to what it should be they're all pissed off they won't look so 'skilled and speshul' if it got raised to reflect real inflation. They need somebody to look down on, and a lot of people making $7 an hour or so makes them feel like they're big time players or something, never mind they just look like petty venal brats.

Ship all of the high productivity jobs overseas or fill them with illiegals and green card rent a slave gimmicks, and you're left with a 'economy' where over 85% of 'new jobs' are part time low wage jobs, no matter how many people have college degrees n stuff. You have shit for disposable incomes, so they encourage large amounts of debt bubbles.

We have a First World economy. It is not Cheap. No first world economy can rely on cheap labor to compete with the less developed world.

 

[danielpalos]

Dear Tornado Person:

No intelligent person wants to significantly increase the minimum wage. Notice that when the Democrats had control of both house and the White House in Obama's first term, NOTHING was done on the minimum wage.

The minimum wage ITSELF is an economic abomination. The price of EVERYTHING should be determined by the marketplace and everyone's right of contract. If I am willing to sweep floors for $5/hr, and there is an employer who desires to employ me at that rate to sweep his floors, WHAT RIGHT DOES GOVERNMENT HAVE TO STEP IN AND SAY WE CANNOT ENTER INTO THIS CONTRACT?

Seriously. How does Government get the right to do this?

There is a natural minimum wage in every place at all times. If I tried to hire a fast food worker in NYC for $8/hr, I would get no takers. $10, probably not. But there is a wage at which I could get the workers I want, and they would be willing to work for that wage. The numbers would be less in Keokuk, Iowa.

Democrats like to point to local Minimum Wage laws that are. harmless, to "prove" that increasing the minimum wage doesn't harm anyone. But they choose locations where the natural minimum wage is already far above the legal minimum wage, so that the local law is actually irrelevant. But look at what's happening in Seattle. Hours are being cut, business near the city limits are closing due to competition, people are losing their jobs.

And remember that the people who are hurt by this are the people at the bottom of the economic totem pole - the ones who can least afford the hit. People with no HS diploma, single parents working part time to make ends meet. And so on.

Any time the Government (or any supervening force) steps in and imposes a price (wage) that is higher than the natural minimum, three things occur: (1) the consumers of that commodity use less of it (i.e., hours and headcount are cut), (b) the consumers seek alternatives (automation, self-service), and (3) a black market is formed by people who will skirt the law for their own benefit.

Every minimum wage increase will reduce the chances of high school kids getting part time and summer jobs. At $15/hr, there are a LOT of retired people, working mothers, and others who had given up work, who will come out of the woodwork. And what employer would prefer a pimply high school kid to a retired grandmother?

Yep. Minimum wage is just populist nonsense.

right wing ideology eschews applied capitalism at every market based opportunity.

 

[danielpalos]

IF you think the cause of the housing bubble was the hike I think you should be for my plan.

My idea is to prevent these knee jerk hikes and just make it a smooth percentage every year. Whatever the GDP or CPI or board of directors pay or whatever goes up minimum wage goes up. This way there are no surges based on the whims of whoever is in Congress trying to win reelection.

So the bottom line is that you're all good with The State engaging in price fixing.

That's all we really need to know.

Make the end of your statement say ..."engaging in price fixing by setting a minimum wage" and I'll agree strongly.

Fixing Standards for a State or the Union expressed for the general government and implied for the several States.

Mr. Feldman is simply going the wrong way on this one.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Employers will never ever pay anybody 'what they're worth', they pay as little as they can, and don't have the least qualms about using govt. to drive down labor's bargaining power and keeping the power dynamics as far away from being 'equal' as they can. there is no 'free market checks and balances' in real life, not anywhere; only propagandists keep claiming there is.

That is the reason for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and unemployment compensation at the equivalent to fourteen dollars an hour for simply being unemployed in our At-Will employment States.

Actually the reason is so many ass kissing suck ups work for close to what it should be they're all pissed off they won't look so 'skilled and speshul' if it got raised to reflect real inflation. They need somebody to look down on, and a lot of people making $7 an hour or so makes them feel like they're big time players or something, never mind they just look like petty venal brats.

Ship all of the high productivity jobs overseas or fill them with illiegals and green card rent a slave gimmicks, and you're left with a 'economy' where over 85% of 'new jobs' are part time low wage jobs, no matter how many people have college degrees n stuff. You have shit for disposable incomes, so they encourage large amounts of debt bubbles.

We have a First World economy. It is not Cheap. No first world economy can rely on cheap labor to compete with the less developed world.

That's why it's so important to keep the illegals from south of the border from entering the US.

 

[danielpalos]

Employers will never ever pay anybody 'what they're worth', they pay as little as they can, and don't have the least qualms about using govt. to drive down labor's bargaining power and keeping the power dynamics as far away from being 'equal' as they can. there is no 'free market checks and balances' in real life, not anywhere; only propagandists keep claiming there is.

That is the reason for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and unemployment compensation at the equivalent to fourteen dollars an hour for simply being unemployed in our At-Will employment States.

Actually the reason is so many ass kissing suck ups work for close to what it should be they're all pissed off they won't look so 'skilled and speshul' if it got raised to reflect real inflation. They need somebody to look down on, and a lot of people making $7 an hour or so makes them feel like they're big time players or something, never mind they just look like petty venal brats.

Ship all of the high productivity jobs overseas or fill them with illiegals and green card rent a slave gimmicks, and you're left with a 'economy' where over 85% of 'new jobs' are part time low wage jobs, no matter how many people have college degrees n stuff. You have shit for disposable incomes, so they encourage large amounts of debt bubbles.

We have a First World economy. It is not Cheap. No first world economy can rely on cheap labor to compete with the less developed world.

That's why it's so important to keep the illegals from south of the border from entering the US.

With what. Capitalism or socialism on a national basis?

 

[danielpalos]

That is the reason for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and unemployment compensation at the equivalent to fourteen dollars an hour for simply being unemployed in our At-Will employment States.

Actually the reason is so many ass kissing suck ups work for close to what it should be they're all pissed off they won't look so 'skilled and speshul' if it got raised to reflect real inflation. They need somebody to look down on, and a lot of people making $7 an hour or so makes them feel like they're big time players or something, never mind they just look like petty venal brats.

Ship all of the high productivity jobs overseas or fill them with illiegals and green card rent a slave gimmicks, and you're left with a 'economy' where over 85% of 'new jobs' are part time low wage jobs, no matter how many people have college degrees n stuff. You have shit for disposable incomes, so they encourage large amounts of debt bubbles.

We have a First World economy. It is not Cheap. No first world economy can rely on cheap labor to compete with the less developed world.

That's why it's so important to keep the illegals from south of the border from entering the US.

With what. Capitalism or socialism on a national basis?

lol So you want to import cheap labor into a socialist economy? Your posts would be so much more interesting if you had some idea what the words you use meant?

lol. Nobody takes the right wing seriously about economics. I am advocating for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage. And, higher paid labor pays more in taxes and creates more in demand.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Actually the reason is so many ass kissing suck ups work for close to what it should be they're all pissed off they won't look so 'skilled and speshul' if it got raised to reflect real inflation. They need somebody to look down on, and a lot of people making $7 an hour or so makes them feel like they're big time players or something, never mind they just look like petty venal brats.

Ship all of the high productivity jobs overseas or fill them with illiegals and green card rent a slave gimmicks, and you're left with a 'economy' where over 85% of 'new jobs' are part time low wage jobs, no matter how many people have college degrees n stuff. You have shit for disposable incomes, so they encourage large amounts of debt bubbles.

We have a First World economy. It is not Cheap. No first world economy can rely on cheap labor to compete with the less developed world.

That's why it's so important to keep the illegals from south of the border from entering the US.

With what. Capitalism or socialism on a national basis?

lol So you want to import cheap labor into a socialist economy? Your posts would be so much more interesting if you had some idea what the words you use meant?

lol. Nobody takes the right wing seriously about economics. I am advocating for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage. And, higher paid labor pays more in taxes and creates more in demand.

Not if they are replaced by a machine. A minimum wage plus benefits plus unemployment insurance, plus the possibility of lawsuits from disgruntled workers provides incentives for employers to replace workers with machines. There is a natural minimum wage that is set by the supply and demand for workers, and if an artificial minimum wage is imposed on employers, the demand for workers will decrease and people will lose their jobs. In the age of AI, nearly all low skilled workers can be replaced by smart machines and as wages rise and the cost of these machines decreases most low skilled workers will be replaced by smart machines. Imposing a minimum wage that is higher than market demand will only speed up this process.

 

[toomuchtime_]

That's why it's so important to keep the illegals from south of the border from entering the US.

With what. Capitalism or socialism on a national basis?

lol So you want to import cheap labor into a socialist economy? Your posts would be so much more interesting if you had some idea what the words you use meant?

lol. Nobody takes the right wing seriously about economics. I am advocating for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage. And, higher paid labor pays more in taxes and creates more in demand.

Not if they are replaced by a machine. A minimum wage plus benefits plus unemployment insurance, plus the possibility of lawsuits from disgruntled workers provides incentives for employers to replace workers with machines. There is a natural minimum wage that is set by the supply and demand for workers, and if an artificial minimum wage is imposed on employers, the demand for workers will decrease and people will lose their jobs. In the age of AI, nearly all low skilled workers can be replaced by smart machines and as wages rise and the cost of these machines decreases most low skilled workers will be replaced by smart machines. Imposing a minimum wage that is higher than market demand will only speed up this process.

lol. I am also advocating unemployment compensation at the equivalent to fourteen dollars an hour for simply being unemployed.

Providing employers with yet another good reason for replacing low skilled worker with smart machines.

 

[Andylusion]

I didn't realize t he MW was broken.

Its been a decade or so since it was raised and I seem to be stumbling into articles about raising it again is all. I'm looking to streamline the process.

Do you not know what happened last time we raised the minimum wage? You know, the great recession?

Why would you want to streamline something that wrecked the economy, and drove million into unemployment? We just got back down to full employment, and you want to completely undo all of the recovery? Why?

IF you think the cause of the housing bubble was the hike I think you should be for my plan.

My idea is to prevent these knee jerk hikes and just make it a smooth percentage every year. Whatever the GDP or CPI or board of directors pay or whatever goes up minimum wage goes up. This way there are no surges based on the whims of whoever is in Congress trying to win reelection.

So that is partially good......

Agreed, that it is true that avoiding massive hikes, would avoid sudden drastic crashes in the economy. So that part is good.

However, the problem is, you still have not avoided the negative effects of the minimum wage. You may have avoided sudden shocks to the system, but you haven't dealt with the fact that the minimum wage is universally and unavoidably a negative.

This is where you keep trying to find a way to consume poison so that it does the least damage. But only true way to not have poison do damage, is to not take the poison.

You do realize that whole history of the minimum wage, was a history of trying to destroy people, in the name of racism.... right? I'm assuming you know this, because this is well known historical fact.

Only in our modern times, have we been ignorant as a society, to think the minimum wage somehow is a benefit to people. It isn't. It never was.

The history of the minimum wage, in this country, was to push people out of the labor market.
These Chinese people were coming to the US, and they were unskilled, but they were willing to work for whatever they could earn. The American Unions were getting ticked off because these Chinks were taking their jobs because they were willing to work for less money.
(to all you Chinese, I absolutely love Chinese people more than Americans usually. I am only using the slur to be accurate to the historical context)

So the American Unions started pushing to have a minimum wage. They knew that if employers have to pay the same amount of money for a Chinese, as an American, the employer will default to the more skilled and educated American. The reason employers hire less skilled or educated people, is because they can pay them lower wages. If you eliminate that ability, you eliminate their employment.

The racists policy worked perfectly. Chinese were drastically harmed by the policy.

By the way... nothing has changed. I was watching a news video from Europe about recent moves to increase the mininmum wage.

This young reporter girl, was interviewing a man from a union. It was either a Union in Germany, or a Union in Norway. I don't remember which. But the idiot American reporter was standing there "So you want to create a minimum wage law, so that people can earn a good living?" (this was before Germany had a minimum wage).

The Union guy goes.... "No. We want to keep these foreigners out of the work place".

This is one of the amazing things about Europe, is that they actually say what they believe, rather than putting on these lies that "It's so people have a better life"... no it is not. It's to keep other people from having jobs. That is the whole purpose.

 

[task0778]

Andy, I would argue that in this country the union people who are pushing very hard for the M-Wage are doing so because they want to prop up their own wages, which in many cases are tied to the M-Wage. Increases in the M-Wage will automatically result in raises in union wages or renegotiations.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The minimu wage should be set at a level where the state does not need to subsidise the wages of those in work. Corporate welfare should not come out of taxpayers pockets.

 

[Andylusion]

Andy, I would argue that in this country the union people who are pushing very hard for the M-Wage are doing so because they want to prop up their own wages, which in many cases are tied to the M-Wage. Increases in the M-Wage will automatically result in raises in union wages or renegotiations.

Specifically public unions tend to have wages tied to the minimum wage. In that case, I would agree.

However, non-government unions, tend to not have that connection. Their primary purpose is to simply shut out non-union employees. Any customer that is forced to pay the same wage for the same job, between a union contract and a non-union contract, will tend towards the Union.

The primary reason someone hires a non-union worker, is because it's cheaper. The Unions know this.

 

[Andylusion]

The minimu wage should be set at a level where the state does not need to subsidise the wages of those in work. Corporate welfare should not come out of taxpayers pockets.

First off, if you subsidize the employee.... that isn't corporate welfare. The corporate was never obligated for anything, whether the tax payer is stupid enough to subsidize a someone or not.

Again, as has been proven MILLIONS OF TIMES.... if you raise the minimum wage, people lose jobs.

Walmart had an average of 330 people employed per store in 2006, when the minimum wage was $5.25.
By 2010, when the minimum wage was raised to $7.25, the average number of employees per store was down to 280.

50 less employed per store, is thousands on thousands of people unemployed. Those unemployed were collecting far more benefits, than they were when they were employed.

Which is better? Partial welfare while they are at least working a job? Or full welfare, with them unemployed?

No one is subsidizing Walmart. You are just flat out wrong.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The minimu wage should be set at a level where the state does not need to subsidise the wages of those in work. Corporate welfare should not come out of taxpayers pockets.

The minimu wage should be set at a level where the state does not need to subsidise the wages of those in work.

Why?

Corporate welfare should not come out of taxpayers pockets.

I agree. But you're talking about welfare going to individuals.