If God doesn't exist...

[The Irish Ram]

ppl? people?

While everyone of the people (=constructions of the shadows of your own thoughts) should know that your opinion about god and the world is the only correct one?

That's only "simple" =(in harmony with your own mentalitiy and indoctrinations) because your enemies are munsters - whatever or whoever they are really.

What?

¿God is allknowing?

Again: "What?" I am a Catholic. Normally I don't discuss bullshit. So don't try to tell me what I think or what I do not think. If someone asks one of our teachers "Am I a Catholic, If I don't believe in the triune god nor in Jesus Christ who is for me not true god from true god?" then why to say anything else than "no"? Who needs more words? You can write 10000 books about - but you are not a Catholic. So what?

I'm not god - what you would know if you ever had to do anything with Catholics.

I know, worryor. Better to say : I don't know this on plausible reasons, because I studied last century a long list of wars of the last 350 years and not any of this wars had anyting to do with religious reasons.

The USA would live in a hell today if the most people in the world would not be very peaceful.

?

Catholics are not fighting against spiritual truths and Catholics are not fighting against real truths. All truthes are part of the truth. Sometimes a way is not easy to find, that's all. So I would say you are fighting aginst Catholics on a very simple reason: You hate the truth and so you hate us without any reason to do so. I guess you think human beings make what's true or not - that's what your indoctrination teaches you. In this case no one has to understand anything or to learn any longer anything.

Ok here goes, James who has been discussing the same thing with me that you are, can do so without acting like I am attacking him. We might not agree but we can not agree without the need to get combative.

"combative" ... Sorry if I slashed your monitior from inside with my longsword. But still your head seems to be on your neck.

And next time you feel the need to attack my spelling or grammar, realise that I'm not typing in my mother tongue.

If you should think it is englsh what I am using then this is also only an illusion.

Btw you are proving my point. I don't hate any religion.

A professional killer shoots now two time now after saying so. Let me take a look. Hmmm - no holes in my monitor. Seems to be true. Nevertheless I don't have the feeling anyone who is religious should trust in you.

If you look for my other posts on this forum you'll see I try to treat ppl with respect even those I don't agree with, What I have immens trouble with is bigotry in any form. If you don't like what I say, that's your right, but don't come at me with "you hate us" because you don't agree, try to show me why I'm wrong.

I said somethijng to you and you answered with many "friendly" words: "I am innocent, bastard". But if you ask about wrongness: You are by the way completly wrong to try to see in natural science a substitute for religions. Natural science is not a religion - never was - never will be.

Natural science is not a religion - never was - never will be. See you do agree with me. This is what started the conversation with James for me. If you have faith good for you. When your faith feels the need to equate itself with science there's a problem. Genesis as a parable isn't a problem. People actually believing and defending a statement saying the earth is 6000 years old is a problem. Because the only way you can make that statement hold up is to make science go away.

About 6000 years was the first approximation - meanwhile we speak about 13.82 billion years in case of the universe and about four and a half billion years in case of the solar system and the planet Earth. The man who had the first time in history of mankind the idea to ask the quantity of years since the world was created was a genius. So you can see: You are the ignorant who attacks what he doesn't understand far from reasons of science. I would be really happy if atheists would understand that atheism is also only a belief. The belief not to believe is indeed a little more paradox than to believe in god.

Funny that you bring that up, considering that Christians have tortured and murdered people throughout history for "heresy" as well as for being "witches" and other such things.

 

[hobelim]

That's fine if some of you do not want to think about it and want to follow some ancient men's book from thousands of years ago, but anyone who opens their eyes and looks can see it makes absolutely no sense at all. Too many contradictions.

Again, that's where "contradictions" are coming from:

And everyone seems to take the literal parts metaphorically and the metaphorical parts literally."

I've noticed that you still haven't addressed my specific question about original sin and what it says in the Bible about Jesus. Did Jesus die on the cross or not? Is the Adam and Eve story a "parable" or not? Do you believe these fantastical stories to be true? What about the Ten Commandments? Where did those come from? God who revealed himself to Moses in the form of a burning bush? Come on.

What is your answer?

Here's mine. OS meant banishment from going against God and we lost perfection. We still have it to this day. Yes. No. Yes. What about it? Moses. Yes.

Doesn't make sense. You are just cherry picking your data. There is no such thing as "perfection" especially when it comes to human beings. Most of you religious folks are extremely hateful and divisive. You need a lot of work.

We are never banished from God. When Adam and Eve were banished from Eden, God went with them. Our imperfections were dealt with at the cross. Those who accept the gift of propitiation, are considered the perfection of Christ, by God. That was the exchange that took place. Christ looked like us on that cross. When God looks at a believer, He see His Son's shining glory.

Ugh... and some people do not believe that people die in the very day they get down on their knees and worship an edible mangod after being deceived by a talking serpent into believing the nonsense that they would live forever in paradise if they did...

 

[The Irish Ram]

Chris, you seem to want to cull Christians out for their behavior without regard to the machinations of mankind, period. Atheists, Muslims, and every other brand of man can be weighed in the balance and found wanting. Christ didn't come to save Christians. There were no Christians when Jesus was born. He came to remove the sins of us all. We all fall short. Christians aren't perfect by any means. The only difference is we accept the forgiveness offered to us by a loving Father. It is a gift.

 

[hobelim]

Rising from the dead is a metaphor.

First Jesus rose from the death and entombment of false religious beliefs and degrading religious practices. He then ascended bodily into heaven, the highest sphere of intelligences, as he walked through life until he was killed. After three days, according to scripture, he rose again and appeared in dreams to his disciples which convinced them that Jesus survived physical death.

Their belief was that dreams are the medium through which God speaks to man. Seeing and communicating with Jesus in dreams after he died was proof enough to them that Jesus was alive and well and in the realm of God, literally.

WHAT??? Rising from the dead, and bringing the formally dead with Him, was no metaphor. He died only once. Witnessed. He rose. Again witnessed. Nothing dreamlike about it. 500 people saw the now alive Jesus cooking fish! No metaphor. Fish stood for fish. No hidden, ethereal meaning... He appeared to many besides his disciples. He hung around for over a month. He didn't die and rise and die and rise and die and rise. What he did he did ONCE and FOR ALL. Nothing suggests that you need to convert what he did into a metaphor. Lazarus was no metaphor. Even the Pharisees knew Jesus could work miracles and raise the dead. They never denied it.

The Pharisees knew that Jesus could raise the dead because their vast collection of victims, human possessions, were crawling out of their unmarked graves and busting out of their whitewashed tombs in droves, spontaneously after being touched by his teaching.

 

[The Irish Ram]

It is for those that have an ear to hear, hob.
Christ spoke in parables to protect those who didn't "get it", and to discern those who did. Disbelief has no bearing on the events that transpired. God saved his children whether you believe it or not. You are the only one impacted by your disbelief. My destination is secure regardless of your convictions. It is a personal walk. Free to everyone. Accepted by a few.

There were lifeboats available on the Titanic that were only half full because not everybody believed they were sinking...

 

[hobelim]

I've noticed that you still haven't addressed my specific question about original sin and what it says in the Bible about Jesus. Did Jesus die on the cross or not? Is the Adam and Eve story a "parable" or not? Do you believe these fantastical stories to be true? What about the Ten Commandments? Where did those come from? God who revealed himself to Moses in the form of a burning bush? Come on.

What is your answer?

Here's mine. OS meant banishment from going against God and we lost perfection. We still have it to this day. Yes. No. Yes. What about it? Moses. Yes.

Doesn't make sense. You are just cherry picking your data. There is no such thing as "perfection" especially when it comes to human beings. Most of you religious folks are extremely hateful and divisive. You need a lot of work.

We are never banished from God. When Adam and Eve were banished from Eden, God went with them. Our imperfections were dealt with at the cross. Those who accept the gift of propitiation, are considered the perfection of Christ, by God. That was the exchange that took place. Christ looked like us on that cross. When God looks at a believer, He see His Son's shining glory.

Ugh... and some people do not believe that people die in the very day they get down on their knees and worship an edible mangod after being deceived by a talking serpent into believing the nonsense that they would live forever in paradise if they did...

It is for those that have an ear to hear. Christ spoke in parables to protect those who didn't "get it", and to discern those who did. Disbelief has no bearing on the events that transpired. God saved his children whether you believe it or not. You are the only one impacted by your disbelief. My destination is secure regardless of your convictions. It is a personal walk. Free to everyone. Accepted by a few.

There were lifeboats available on the Titanic that were only half full because not everybody believed they were sinking... Those that did were saved.

Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them. Jeremiah 25:15

Just art thou, in these thy judgments, thou Holy one who art and wast; For they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou hast given them blood to drink. Revelation 16:5

Bottoms up!

 

[The Irish Ram]

Again, that's where "contradictions" are coming from:

I've noticed that you still haven't addressed my specific question about original sin and what it says in the Bible about Jesus. Did Jesus die on the cross or not? Is the Adam and Eve story a "parable" or not? Do you believe these fantastical stories to be true? What about the Ten Commandments? Where did those come from? God who revealed himself to Moses in the form of a burning bush? Come on.

What is your answer?

Here's mine. OS meant banishment from going against God and we lost perfection. We still have it to this day. Yes. No. Yes. What about it? Moses. Yes.

Doesn't make sense. You are just cherry picking your data. There is no such thing as "perfection" especially when it comes to human beings. Most of you religious folks are extremely hateful and divisive. You need a lot of work.

We are never banished from God. When Adam and Eve were banished from Eden, God went with them. Our imperfections were dealt with at the cross. Those who accept the gift of propitiation, are considered the perfection of Christ, by God. That was the exchange that took place. Christ looked like us on that cross. When God looks at a believer, He see His Son's shining glory.

Jesus Christ (if he really even existed) was just a man. A smart and intelligent man who didn't like violence, but a MAN nonetheless. The myth of god is no different than the myths of other gods that other cultures believed in.

Chris, If He didn't exist what makes you think he was anything, let alone smart and intelligent (same thing)? And if He did exist and you accept the premise that he was smart and intelligent, why would you then dismiss that in front of thousands, he cured blindness, crippled limbs, and raised people from death? If He was intelligent, why go to such lengths to get himself hung on a cross? Even those who hated him, couldn't deny the miracles they saw Him perform with their own eyes. Ordinary, He was not. And the difference that you overlook between Christ and Buddha, Mohammad, and the other religious figures, is that only one was witnessed to be present after being declared dead. That is due to the power of 1 God.

 

[The Irish Ram]

What is your answer?

Here's mine. OS meant banishment from going against God and we lost perfection. We still have it to this day. Yes. No. Yes. What about it? Moses. Yes.

Doesn't make sense. You are just cherry picking your data. There is no such thing as "perfection" especially when it comes to human beings. Most of you religious folks are extremely hateful and divisive. You need a lot of work.

We are never banished from God. When Adam and Eve were banished from Eden, God went with them. Our imperfections were dealt with at the cross. Those who accept the gift of propitiation, are considered the perfection of Christ, by God. That was the exchange that took place. Christ looked like us on that cross. When God looks at a believer, He see His Son's shining glory.

Ugh... and some people do not believe that people die in the very day they get down on their knees and worship an edible mangod after being deceived by a talking serpent into believing the nonsense that they would live forever in paradise if they did...

It is for those that have an ear to hear. Christ spoke in parables to protect those who didn't "get it", and to discern those who did. Disbelief has no bearing on the events that transpired. God saved his children whether you believe it or not. You are the only one impacted by your disbelief. My destination is secure regardless of your convictions. It is a personal walk. Free to everyone. Accepted by a few.

There were lifeboats available on the Titanic that were only half full because not everybody believed they were sinking... Those that did were saved.

Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them. Jeremiah 25:15

Just art thou, in these thy judgments, thou Holy one who art and wast; For they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou hast given them blood to drink. Revelation 16:5

Bottoms up!

Hob,
Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

[hobelim]

Doesn't make sense. You are just cherry picking your data. There is no such thing as "perfection" especially when it comes to human beings. Most of you religious folks are extremely hateful and divisive. You need a lot of work.

We are never banished from God. When Adam and Eve were banished from Eden, God went with them. Our imperfections were dealt with at the cross. Those who accept the gift of propitiation, are considered the perfection of Christ, by God. That was the exchange that took place. Christ looked like us on that cross. When God looks at a believer, He see His Son's shining glory.

Ugh... and some people do not believe that people die in the very day they get down on their knees and worship an edible mangod after being deceived by a talking serpent into believing the nonsense that they would live forever in paradise if they did...

It is for those that have an ear to hear. Christ spoke in parables to protect those who didn't "get it", and to discern those who did. Disbelief has no bearing on the events that transpired. God saved his children whether you believe it or not. You are the only one impacted by your disbelief. My destination is secure regardless of your convictions. It is a personal walk. Free to everyone. Accepted by a few.

There were lifeboats available on the Titanic that were only half full because not everybody believed they were sinking... Those that did were saved.

Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them. Jeremiah 25:15

Just art thou, in these thy judgments, thou Holy one who art and wast; For they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou hast given them blood to drink. Revelation 16:5

Bottoms up!

Hob,
Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

When Jesus came and taught that there was deeper meaning in the law and that the words used were figurative and the subjects hidden he was leading people back to the way that Moses originally taught to understand and follow the law, the first covenant, the only way that leads to the promise of eternal life fulfilled and the sanctuary of God being firmly established among human beings.. When the people turned aside from the way that Moses taught to follow after his death they began to follow the oral law, detailed instructions about how to comply with the literal letter of the very law that was never intended to be taken literally which had become a thousand year tradition by the time Christ first appeared..

this is the only way to resolve the contradiction presented by scripture which states that the law was made obsolete and scripture which states that the law will remain forever in effect and in full force.

What became obsolete was the wrong way to conform to the divine commands, the oral law, what Jesus called the traditions of men, not the law itself.


The fact that you, not to mention a few others, claim that a person can receive eternal life by worshiping something made by human hands yet are oblivious to the irrefutable fact that you demonstrate all of the signs associated with the dead is proof that the law is still in effect and remains in full force.

 

[zaangalewa]

Do you have one or not?

Every human ever born has a soul. Nonsense! And a human spirit. More Nonsense! Spirits are eternal. Completely un provable! We never cease to exist. After death we only exist in the memories of those that knew us. We are also given the opportunity to house a portion of the Holy Spirit of God. More wishful thinking. The soul and the Holy Spirit are never to be subject to the human spirit. The Holy Spirit feeds the soul. The human spirit was the last thing Christ dealt with on the cross. He commanded it to remove itself to the Father. It is the breath of life God breathed into Adam, and is passed on down from parent to child. When it leaves the body, the body ceases to function. It dies. You don't. You merely step right out of the terrestrial part. This life as we know it is merely a blip in our eternal life. It is basic training.

You have been trained to believe a lot of religious psycho babble. A whole lot of energy has been wasted attempting to mold the reality of existence to fit this daydream of some goat herders 2000 years ago. Science has had these religions back peddling since the inventions of Galileo and others. You that insist on justifying your fearful imaginations have murdered and tortured in the name of protecting your gods from science.

It is all just nonsense. They have offered you this un-provable carrot of a life everlasting and because you cannot accept the stark cold reality of the finality of the end of our lives when we die you insist on believing the fantasy.

Atheism is not a religion. It is just accepting the most likely truth and refusing to waste what little time we have on bullshit. It is just an understanding that there is no meaning to our existence. There is no secret key to special favor that will allow us more time than we get here on earth.

You choosing to believe in fantasy stories of souls and heavens and hells does not make them true. If you feel safer with the make believe then maybe for you that is the best way to face the inevitable. One thing for sure is that no man or woman has ever come back from the dead to verify your fantasy.

Just as you cannot prove that the soul does not exist. ...

I'm not sure about this. There's maybe indeed a kind of prove for the existance of a soul. For sure something existed - let me say a thousand or a million or a billion years ago - what was necesarry for your existance now. If someone could travel back in time he could easily erase your existance by destroying in former times this what I would call "the way of your soul". (But we don't know in this case anything about the new way a soul would go). I'm not sure wether this experiment by thoughts shows that a soul has necessarily to exist - although we are not able now and here to notice the ways of the souls of the futures.

That Christ died, was no out of the ordinary event. That he returned from the dead was an extraordinary event, and indicates that there is indeed life after death.

If someone believes then the belief in a soul and/or afterlife is not a problem. I'm by the way also able to explain that an afterlife is possible in case a soul is not existing. Christians believe in a surrection of a [transformed] body - so there's no need to separate body and soul.

read the accounts of the 2 formerly dead priests that returned with Christ,

What? Two formerly dead priests? Never heard anything about.

and gave testimony to the events,at the Temple, you'll see that just like the Bible describes, those men were alive and well, absent from there terrestrial shells, and were waiting in Abraham's bosom for the appearance of Christ. Those souls could not enter heaven until pure blood was shed for their sins. Aprox. 10,000 souls, reunited with their (glorified at that point) bodies, returned with Christ, and ascended with him 40 days later.

A strange story that seems to be important for you. In our tradition we pray 40 days if someone dies. So we accompany a beloved dead person with prayers and this helps to find orientation - as well for the dead person with the lights of our souls - as well for us ourselve in our concrete life here, because it minimizes normally our suffer to be able to help. For sure best wishes and the will to help are never wrong - even if someone is not able to believe in such stories.

The following ritual shows how we bury our highest political authorities - the german emperor who lived in Vienna before Napoleon destroyed the holy empire. Because of Napoleons attacks he was only the Austrian emperor any longer. Someone knocks in this ritual three times. A monk asks "Who is there?". Later 2 times is the anwer "We don't know him" and the last answer is to open the doors. The text starts after the first knocking with all international titles and mights and honors - reduces after the second knocking to the personal name and title - and ends after the third knocking with the forename and "a poor sinner". That's what we are - everyone of us - without any exception. Poor sinners. Everyone needs the grace of god.

 

[zaangalewa]

Did Jesus Christ really "rise from the dead" or is that just another parable? I guess, according to the religious folks, only the stories from the Bible that have been proven untrue are the "parables?"

Rising from the dead is a metaphor.

First Jesus rose from the death and entombment of false religious beliefs and degrading religious practices. He then ascended bodily into heaven, the highest sphere of intelligences, as he walked through life until he was killed. After three days, according to scripture, he rose again and appeared in dreams to his disciples which convinced them that Jesus survived physical death.

Their belief was that dreams are the medium through which God speaks to man. Seeing and communicating with Jesus in dreams after he died was proof enough to them that Jesus was alive and well and in the realm of God, literally.

That's not what it says in the Bible. It specifically states that Jesus actually awoke from the dead. There were allegedly women there who witnessed it and saw his tomb was empty!

That's what the women reported. Should we not trust in women?

This doesn't even make sense, and shows your ignorance, like putting it up on a billboard with flashing lights!

What makes no sense?

 

[HUGGY]

Every human ever born has a soul. Nonsense! And a human spirit. More Nonsense! Spirits are eternal. Completely un provable! We never cease to exist. After death we only exist in the memories of those that knew us. We are also given the opportunity to house a portion of the Holy Spirit of God. More wishful thinking. The soul and the Holy Spirit are never to be subject to the human spirit. The Holy Spirit feeds the soul. The human spirit was the last thing Christ dealt with on the cross. He commanded it to remove itself to the Father. It is the breath of life God breathed into Adam, and is passed on down from parent to child. When it leaves the body, the body ceases to function. It dies. You don't. You merely step right out of the terrestrial part. This life as we know it is merely a blip in our eternal life. It is basic training.

You have been trained to believe a lot of religious psycho babble. A whole lot of energy has been wasted attempting to mold the reality of existence to fit this daydream of some goat herders 2000 years ago. Science has had these religions back peddling since the inventions of Galileo and others. You that insist on justifying your fearful imaginations have murdered and tortured in the name of protecting your gods from science.

It is all just nonsense. They have offered you this un-provable carrot of a life everlasting and because you cannot accept the stark cold reality of the finality of the end of our lives when we die you insist on believing the fantasy.

Atheism is not a religion. It is just accepting the most likely truth and refusing to waste what little time we have on bullshit. It is just an understanding that there is no meaning to our existence. There is no secret key to special favor that will allow us more time than we get here on earth.

You choosing to believe in fantasy stories of souls and heavens and hells does not make them true. If you feel safer with the make believe then maybe for you that is the best way to face the inevitable. One thing for sure is that no man or woman has ever come back from the dead to verify your fantasy.

Just as you cannot prove that the soul does not exist. ...

I'm not sure about this. There's maybe indeed a kind of prove for the existance of a soul. For sure something existed - let me say a thousand or a million or a billion years ago - what was necesarry for your existance now. If someone could travel back in time he could easily erase your existance by destroying in former times this what I would call "the way of your soul". (But we don't know in this case anything about the new way a soul would go). I'm not sure wether this experiment by thoughts shows that a soul has necessarily to exist - although we are not able now and here to notice the ways of the souls of the futures.

That Christ died, was no out of the ordinary event. That he returned from the dead was an extraordinary event, and indicates that there is indeed life after death.

If someone believes then the belief in a soul and/or afterlife is not a problem. I'm by the way also able to explain that an afterlife is possible in case a soul is not existing. Christians believe in a surrection of a [transformed] body - so there's no need to separate body and soul.

read the accounts of the 2 formerly dead priests that returned with Christ,

What? Two formerly dead priests? Never heard anything about.

and gave testimony to the events,at the Temple, you'll see that just like the Bible describes, those men were alive and well, absent from there terrestrial shells, and were waiting in Abraham's bosom for the appearance of Christ. Those souls could not enter heaven until pure blood was shed for their sins. Aprox. 10,000 souls, reunited with their (glorified at that point) bodies, returned with Christ, and ascended with him 40 days later.

A strange story that seems to be important for you. In our tradition we pray 40 days if someone dies. So we accompany a beloved dead person with prayers and this helps to find orientation - as well for the dead person with the lights of our souls - as well for us ourselve in our concrete life here, because it minimizes normally our suffer to be able to help. For sure best wishes and the will to help are never wrong - even if someone is not able to believe in such stories.

The following ritual shows how we bury our highest political authorities - the german emperor who lived in Vienna before Napoleon destroyed the holy empire. Because of Napoleons attacks he was only the Austrian emperor any longer. Someone knocks in this ritual three times. A monk asks "Who is there?". Later 2 times is the anwer "We don't know him" and the last answer is to open the doors. The text starts after the first knocking with all international titles and mights and honors - reduces after the second knocking to the personal name and title - and ends after the third knocking with the forename and "a poor sinner". That's what we are - everyone of us - without any exception. Poor sinners. Everyone needs the grace of god.

"Everyone needs the grace of god"

Nonsense! We are all responsible for our own behavior, ESPECIALLY people who have the audacity to assume the leadership of others. There are no "gimmies". There is no "forgiveness". There are no "mulligans".

An atheist takes the lead position seriously. He or she understands the weight of the responsibility in telling others to risk their lives to support the leader's decisions. Unless the atheist is also a psychopath and a sociopath he or she must absolutely believe in any "path" chosen that risks other's lost future.

 

[zaangalewa]

ppl? people?

While everyone of the people (=constructions of the shadows of your own thoughts) should know that your opinion about god and the world is the only correct one?

That's only "simple" =(in harmony with your own mentalitiy and indoctrinations) because your enemies are munsters - whatever or whoever they are really.

What?

¿God is allknowing?

Again: "What?" I am a Catholic. Normally I don't discuss bullshit. So don't try to tell me what I think or what I do not think. If someone asks one of our teachers "Am I a Catholic, If I don't believe in the triune god nor in Jesus Christ who is for me not true god from true god?" then why to say anything else than "no"? Who needs more words? You can write 10000 books about - but you are not a Catholic. So what?

I'm not god - what you would know if you ever had to do anything with Catholics.

I know, worryor. Better to say : I don't know this on plausible reasons, because I studied last century a long list of wars of the last 350 years and not any of this wars had anyting to do with religious reasons.

The USA would live in a hell today if the most people in the world would not be very peaceful.

?

Catholics are not fighting against spiritual truths and Catholics are not fighting against real truths. All truthes are part of the truth. Sometimes a way is not easy to find, that's all. So I would say you are fighting aginst Catholics on a very simple reason: You hate the truth and so you hate us without any reason to do so. I guess you think human beings make what's true or not - that's what your indoctrination teaches you. In this case no one has to understand anything or to learn any longer anything.

Ok here goes, James who has been discussing the same thing with me that you are, can do so without acting like I am attacking him. We might not agree but we can not agree without the need to get combative.

"combative" ... Sorry if I slashed your monitior from inside with my longsword. But still your head seems to be on your neck.

And next time you feel the need to attack my spelling or grammar, realise that I'm not typing in my mother tongue.

If you should think it is englsh what I am using then this is also only an illusion.

Btw you are proving my point. I don't hate any religion.

A professional killer shoots now two time now after saying so. Let me take a look. Hmmm - no holes in my monitor. Seems to be true. Nevertheless I don't have the feeling anyone who is religious should trust in you.

If you look for my other posts on this forum you'll see I try to treat ppl with respect even those I don't agree with, What I have immens trouble with is bigotry in any form. If you don't like what I say, that's your right, but don't come at me with "you hate us" because you don't agree, try to show me why I'm wrong.

I said somethijng to you and you answered with many "friendly" words: "I am innocent, bastard". But if you ask about wrongness: You are by the way completly wrong to try to see in natural science a substitute for religions. Natural science is not a religion - never was - never will be.

Natural science is not a religion - never was - never will be. See you do agree with me. This is what started the conversation with James for me. If you have faith good for you. When your faith feels the need to equate itself with science there's a problem. Genesis as a parable isn't a problem. People actually believing and defending a statement saying the earth is 6000 years old is a problem. Because the only way you can make that statement hold up is to make science go away.

About 6000 years was the first approximation - meanwhile we speak about 13.82 billion years in case of the universe and about four and a half billion years in case of the solar system and the planet Earth. The man who had the first time in history of mankind the idea to ask the quantity of years since the world was created was a genius. So you can see: You are the ignorant who attacks what he doesn't understand far from reasons of science. I would be really happy if atheists would understand that atheism is also only a belief. The belief not to believe is indeed a little more paradox than to believe in god.

Funny that you bring that up, considering that Christians have tortured and murdered people throughout history for "heresy" as well as for being "witches" and other such things.

As far as I know in the moment some hundred in some hundred years. If you have a problem with a very concrete situation in history then I'm ready to help you to find out what was going on there and what this means today for us. Whatever had happened in histroy gives for sure no one - also not the government of the USA - any right to murder and/or to torture anyone.

Taizé - Behüte mich Gott

 

[zaangalewa]

You have been trained to believe a lot of religious psycho babble. A whole lot of energy has been wasted attempting to mold the reality of existence to fit this daydream of some goat herders 2000 years ago. Science has had these religions back peddling since the inventions of Galileo and others. You that insist on justifying your fearful imaginations have murdered and tortured in the name of protecting your gods from science.

It is all just nonsense. They have offered you this un-provable carrot of a life everlasting and because you cannot accept the stark cold reality of the finality of the end of our lives when we die you insist on believing the fantasy.

Atheism is not a religion. It is just accepting the most likely truth and refusing to waste what little time we have on bullshit. It is just an understanding that there is no meaning to our existence. There is no secret key to special favor that will allow us more time than we get here on earth.

You choosing to believe in fantasy stories of souls and heavens and hells does not make them true. If you feel safer with the make believe then maybe for you that is the best way to face the inevitable. One thing for sure is that no man or woman has ever come back from the dead to verify your fantasy.

Just as you cannot prove that the soul does not exist. ...

I'm not sure about this. There's maybe indeed a kind of prove for the existance of a soul. For sure something existed - let me say a thousand or a million or a billion years ago - what was necesarry for your existance now. If someone could travel back in time he could easily erase your existance by destroying in former times this what I would call "the way of your soul". (But we don't know in this case anything about the new way a soul would go). I'm not sure wether this experiment by thoughts shows that a soul has necessarily to exist - although we are not able now and here to notice the ways of the souls of the futures.

That Christ died, was no out of the ordinary event. That he returned from the dead was an extraordinary event, and indicates that there is indeed life after death.

If someone believes then the belief in a soul and/or afterlife is not a problem. I'm by the way also able to explain that an afterlife is possible in case a soul is not existing. Christians believe in a surrection of a [transformed] body - so there's no need to separate body and soul.

read the accounts of the 2 formerly dead priests that returned with Christ,

What? Two formerly dead priests? Never heard anything about.

and gave testimony to the events,at the Temple, you'll see that just like the Bible describes, those men were alive and well, absent from there terrestrial shells, and were waiting in Abraham's bosom for the appearance of Christ. Those souls could not enter heaven until pure blood was shed for their sins. Aprox. 10,000 souls, reunited with their (glorified at that point) bodies, returned with Christ, and ascended with him 40 days later.

A strange story that seems to be important for you. In our tradition we pray 40 days if someone dies. So we accompany a beloved dead person with prayers and this helps to find orientation - as well for the dead person with the lights of our souls - as well for us ourselve in our concrete life here, because it minimizes normally our suffer to be able to help. For sure best wishes and the will to help are never wrong - even if someone is not able to believe in such stories.

The following ritual shows how we bury our highest political authorities - the german emperor who lived in Vienna before Napoleon destroyed the holy empire. Because of Napoleons attacks he was only the Austrian emperor any longer. Someone knocks in this ritual three times. A monk asks "Who is there?". Later 2 times is the anwer "We don't know him" and the last answer is to open the doors. The text starts after the first knocking with all international titles and mights and honors - reduces after the second knocking to the personal name and title - and ends after the third knocking with the forename and "a poor sinner". That's what we are - everyone of us - without any exception. Poor sinners. Everyone needs the grace of god.

"Everyone needs the grace of god"

Nonsense! We are all responsible for our own behavior, ESPECIALLY people who have the audacity to assume the leadership of others. There are no "gimmies". There is no "forgiveness". There are no "mulligans".

An atheist takes the lead position seriously. He or she understands the weight of the responsibility in telling others to risk their lives to support the leader's decisions. Unless the atheist is also a psychopath and a sociopath he or she must absolutely believe in any "path" chosen that risks other's lost future.

"We" (=spiritual human beings believing in god) will see what you think about after your death. And you are right: You are - like everyone else - responsible in the eyes of god for your deeds - that's what "responsibility" means. Responsibilty and freedom are the two sides of the same coin. There's no difference between anyone on this planet - everyone is responsible - no one has any excuse. On the other side: Everyone is free. To live on the own free will in slavery is also not an excuse.

 

[HUGGY]

Just as you cannot prove that the soul does not exist. ...

I'm not sure about this. There's maybe indeed a kind of prove for the existance of a soul. For sure something existed - let me say a thousand or a million or a billion years ago - what was necesarry for your existance now. If someone could travel back in time he could easily erase your existance by destroying in former times this what I would call "the way of your soul". (But we don't know in this case anything about the new way a soul would go). I'm not sure wether this experiment by thoughts shows that a soul has necessarily to exist - although we are not able now and here to notice the ways of the souls of the futures.

That Christ died, was no out of the ordinary event. That he returned from the dead was an extraordinary event, and indicates that there is indeed life after death.

If someone believes then the belief in a soul and/or afterlife is not a problem. I'm by the way also able to explain that an afterlife is possible in case a soul is not existing. Christians believe in a surrection of a [transformed] body - so there's no need to separate body and soul.

read the accounts of the 2 formerly dead priests that returned with Christ,

What? Two formerly dead priests? Never heard anything about.

and gave testimony to the events,at the Temple, you'll see that just like the Bible describes, those men were alive and well, absent from there terrestrial shells, and were waiting in Abraham's bosom for the appearance of Christ. Those souls could not enter heaven until pure blood was shed for their sins. Aprox. 10,000 souls, reunited with their (glorified at that point) bodies, returned with Christ, and ascended with him 40 days later.

A strange story that seems to be important for you. In our tradition we pray 40 days if someone dies. So we accompany a beloved dead person with prayers and this helps to find orientation - as well for the dead person with the lights of our souls - as well for us ourselve in our concrete life here, because it minimizes normally our suffer to be able to help. For sure best wishes and the will to help are never wrong - even if someone is not able to believe in such stories.

The following ritual shows how we bury our highest political authorities - the german emperor who lived in Vienna before Napoleon destroyed the holy empire. Because of Napoleons attacks he was only the Austrian emperor any longer. Someone knocks in this ritual three times. A monk asks "Who is there?". Later 2 times is the anwer "We don't know him" and the last answer is to open the doors. The text starts after the first knocking with all international titles and mights and honors - reduces after the second knocking to the personal name and title - and ends after the third knocking with the forename and "a poor sinner". That's what we are - everyone of us - without any exception. Poor sinners. Everyone needs the grace of god.

"Everyone needs the grace of god"

Nonsense! We are all responsible for our own behavior, ESPECIALLY people who have the audacity to assume the leadership of others. There are no "gimmies". There is no "forgiveness". There are no "mulligans".

An atheist takes the lead position seriously. He or she understands the weight of the responsibility in telling others to risk their lives to support the leader's decisions. Unless the atheist is also a psychopath and a sociopath he or she must absolutely believe in any "path" chosen that risks other's lost future.

"We" (=spiritual human beings believing in god) will see what you think about after your death. And you are right: You are - like everyone else - responsible in the eyes of god for your deeds - that's what "responsibility" means. Responsibilty and freedom are the two sides of the same coin. There's no difference between anyone on this planet - everyone is responsible - no one has any excuse. On the other side: Everyone is free. To live on the own free will in slavery is also not an excuse.

There will be nothing after my death. No judgement by you or anything will I have to endure. That is by the departed.

If I was in a position of leadership and made beau-coup mistakes that hurt the lives of those still drawing breath THAT is the only judgement I would have to pay for. Except I would be dead. The eyes and ears no workie.

Do you think Hitler squirms in some way tortured and uncomfortable? If you do you are a fool. That is why what you do while a horrible person is alive is all that matters. There is no hell. Adolf got away with it. He just smooth got away with it. All that whining about how Hitler will pay in hell is the real evil of christianity. You all ask "what bad could believing in a god and a heaven and a hell possibly do?" It's just THAT giving evil a pass here on earth in what I like to call "reality" based on your firm beliefs you also defer the acts of evil to the judgement of your god. You enable acts of evil. You are the co-conspirators of the evil that happens.

As long as you pass judgement to some afterlife hearing and indictment you enable evil to use your stupidity against the living.

 

[Yarddog]

Oh god, this stupid shit.. Who created god? It's a infinite cycle both ways, I just don't give a fuck.

The fact that you don't Give a Fuck means nothing, actually less than nothing. it obviously is intriguing to some people , for who knows what reason? But, accepting diversity of thought can be a nice thing.There are a variety of threads around here to choose from. Why is it that Socialists are the most unfriendly people on the planet? there's another infinite cycle.

 

[ChrisL]

Did Jesus Christ really "rise from the dead" or is that just another parable? I guess, according to the religious folks, only the stories from the Bible that have been proven untrue are the "parables?"

Rising from the dead is a metaphor.

First Jesus rose from the death and entombment of false religious beliefs and degrading religious practices. He then ascended bodily into heaven, the highest sphere of intelligences, as he walked through life until he was killed. After three days, according to scripture, he rose again and appeared in dreams to his disciples which convinced them that Jesus survived physical death.

Their belief was that dreams are the medium through which God speaks to man. Seeing and communicating with Jesus in dreams after he died was proof enough to them that Jesus was alive and well and in the realm of God, literally.

That's not what it says in the Bible. It specifically states that Jesus actually awoke from the dead. There were allegedly women there who witnessed it and saw his tomb was empty!

That's what the women reported. Should we not trust in women?

This doesn't even make sense, and shows your ignorance, like putting it up on a billboard with flashing lights!

What makes no sense?

Your posts. Full of contradictions, as is typical for religious beliefs.

 

[ChrisL]

I'm not sure about this. There's maybe indeed a kind of prove for the existance of a soul. For sure something existed - let me say a thousand or a million or a billion years ago - what was necesarry for your existance now. If someone could travel back in time he could easily erase your existance by destroying in former times this what I would call "the way of your soul". (But we don't know in this case anything about the new way a soul would go). I'm not sure wether this experiment by thoughts shows that a soul has necessarily to exist - although we are not able now and here to notice the ways of the souls of the futures.

That Christ died, was no out of the ordinary event. That he returned from the dead was an extraordinary event, and indicates that there is indeed life after death.

If someone believes then the belief in a soul and/or afterlife is not a problem. I'm by the way also able to explain that an afterlife is possible in case a soul is not existing. Christians believe in a surrection of a [transformed] body - so there's no need to separate body and soul.

read the accounts of the 2 formerly dead priests that returned with Christ,

What? Two formerly dead priests? Never heard anything about.

and gave testimony to the events,at the Temple, you'll see that just like the Bible describes, those men were alive and well, absent from there terrestrial shells, and were waiting in Abraham's bosom for the appearance of Christ. Those souls could not enter heaven until pure blood was shed for their sins. Aprox. 10,000 souls, reunited with their (glorified at that point) bodies, returned with Christ, and ascended with him 40 days later.

A strange story that seems to be important for you. In our tradition we pray 40 days if someone dies. So we accompany a beloved dead person with prayers and this helps to find orientation - as well for the dead person with the lights of our souls - as well for us ourselve in our concrete life here, because it minimizes normally our suffer to be able to help. For sure best wishes and the will to help are never wrong - even if someone is not able to believe in such stories.

The following ritual shows how we bury our highest political authorities - the german emperor who lived in Vienna before Napoleon destroyed the holy empire. Because of Napoleons attacks he was only the Austrian emperor any longer. Someone knocks in this ritual three times. A monk asks "Who is there?". Later 2 times is the anwer "We don't know him" and the last answer is to open the doors. The text starts after the first knocking with all international titles and mights and honors - reduces after the second knocking to the personal name and title - and ends after the third knocking with the forename and "a poor sinner". That's what we are - everyone of us - without any exception. Poor sinners. Everyone needs the grace of god.

"Everyone needs the grace of god"

Nonsense! We are all responsible for our own behavior, ESPECIALLY people who have the audacity to assume the leadership of others. There are no "gimmies". There is no "forgiveness". There are no "mulligans".

An atheist takes the lead position seriously. He or she understands the weight of the responsibility in telling others to risk their lives to support the leader's decisions. Unless the atheist is also a psychopath and a sociopath he or she must absolutely believe in any "path" chosen that risks other's lost future.

"We" (=spiritual human beings believing in god) will see what you think about after your death. And you are right: You are - like everyone else - responsible in the eyes of god for your deeds - that's what "responsibility" means. Responsibilty and freedom are the two sides of the same coin. There's no difference between anyone on this planet - everyone is responsible - no one has any excuse. On the other side: Everyone is free. To live on the own free will in slavery is also not an excuse.

There will be nothing after my death. No judgement by you or anything will I have to endure. That is by the departed.

If I was in a position of leadership and made beau-coup mistakes that hurt the lives of those still drawing breath THAT is the only judgement I would have to pay for. Except I would be dead. The eyes and ears no workie.

Do you think Hitler squirms in some way tortured and uncomfortable? If you do you are a fool. That is why what you do while a horrible person is alive is all that matters. There is no hell. Adolf got away with it. He just smooth got away with it. All that whining about how Hitler will pay in hell is the real evil of christianity. You all ask "what bad could believing in a god and a heaven and a hell possibly do?" It's just THAT giving evil a pass here on earth in what I like to call "reality" based on your firm beliefs you also defer the acts of evil to the judgement of your god. You enable acts of evil. You are the co-conspirators of the evil that happens.

As long as you pass judgement to some afterlife hearing and indictment you enable evil to use your stupidity against the living.

And many of the people posting about being such good religious people are also PRO death penalty. Lol. I think that directly goes against the teachings of Christ.

 

[Yarddog]

That Christ died, was no out of the ordinary event. That he returned from the dead was an extraordinary event, and indicates that there is indeed life after death.

If someone believes then the belief in a soul and/or afterlife is not a problem. I'm by the way also able to explain that an afterlife is possible in case a soul is not existing. Christians believe in a surrection of a [transformed] body - so there's no need to separate body and soul.

read the accounts of the 2 formerly dead priests that returned with Christ,

What? Two formerly dead priests? Never heard anything about.

and gave testimony to the events,at the Temple, you'll see that just like the Bible describes, those men were alive and well, absent from there terrestrial shells, and were waiting in Abraham's bosom for the appearance of Christ. Those souls could not enter heaven until pure blood was shed for their sins. Aprox. 10,000 souls, reunited with their (glorified at that point) bodies, returned with Christ, and ascended with him 40 days later.

A strange story that seems to be important for you. In our tradition we pray 40 days if someone dies. So we accompany a beloved dead person with prayers and this helps to find orientation - as well for the dead person with the lights of our souls - as well for us ourselve in our concrete life here, because it minimizes normally our suffer to be able to help. For sure best wishes and the will to help are never wrong - even if someone is not able to believe in such stories.

The following ritual shows how we bury our highest political authorities - the german emperor who lived in Vienna before Napoleon destroyed the holy empire. Because of Napoleons attacks he was only the Austrian emperor any longer. Someone knocks in this ritual three times. A monk asks "Who is there?". Later 2 times is the anwer "We don't know him" and the last answer is to open the doors. The text starts after the first knocking with all international titles and mights and honors - reduces after the second knocking to the personal name and title - and ends after the third knocking with the forename and "a poor sinner". That's what we are - everyone of us - without any exception. Poor sinners. Everyone needs the grace of god.

"Everyone needs the grace of god"

Nonsense! We are all responsible for our own behavior, ESPECIALLY people who have the audacity to assume the leadership of others. There are no "gimmies". There is no "forgiveness". There are no "mulligans".

An atheist takes the lead position seriously. He or she understands the weight of the responsibility in telling others to risk their lives to support the leader's decisions. Unless the atheist is also a psychopath and a sociopath he or she must absolutely believe in any "path" chosen that risks other's lost future.

"We" (=spiritual human beings believing in god) will see what you think about after your death. And you are right: You are - like everyone else - responsible in the eyes of god for your deeds - that's what "responsibility" means. Responsibilty and freedom are the two sides of the same coin. There's no difference between anyone on this planet - everyone is responsible - no one has any excuse. On the other side: Everyone is free. To live on the own free will in slavery is also not an excuse.

There will be nothing after my death. No judgement by you or anything will I have to endure. That is by the departed.

If I was in a position of leadership and made beau-coup mistakes that hurt the lives of those still drawing breath THAT is the only judgement I would have to pay for. Except I would be dead. The eyes and ears no workie.

Do you think Hitler squirms in some way tortured and uncomfortable? If you do you are a fool. That is why what you do while a horrible person is alive is all that matters. There is no hell. Adolf got away with it. He just smooth got away with it. All that whining about how Hitler will pay in hell is the real evil of christianity. You all ask "what bad could believing in a god and a heaven and a hell possibly do?" It's just THAT giving evil a pass here on earth in what I like to call "reality" based on your firm beliefs you also defer the acts of evil to the judgement of your god. You enable acts of evil. You are the co-conspirators of the evil that happens.

As long as you pass judgement to some afterlife hearing and indictment you enable evil to use your stupidity against the living.

And many of the people posting about being such good religious people are also PRO death penalty. Lol. I think that directly goes against the teachings of Christ.

Im not so sure that Jesus was anti Death penalty. There was that phrase he used, " render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render unto God what is God's" ( or something like that) I think that means to obey the laws in the Temporal world as they are in place and then to live your personal life in a way that is obedient to God, with the emphasis of the next life which is supposed to be eternal.
Jesus did allow himself to be executed with that same understanding I think

 

[ChrisL]

If someone believes then the belief in a soul and/or afterlife is not a problem. I'm by the way also able to explain that an afterlife is possible in case a soul is not existing. Christians believe in a surrection of a [transformed] body - so there's no need to separate body and soul.

What? Two formerly dead priests? Never heard anything about.

A strange story that seems to be important for you. In our tradition we pray 40 days if someone dies. So we accompany a beloved dead person with prayers and this helps to find orientation - as well for the dead person with the lights of our souls - as well for us ourselve in our concrete life here, because it minimizes normally our suffer to be able to help. For sure best wishes and the will to help are never wrong - even if someone is not able to believe in such stories.

The following ritual shows how we bury our highest political authorities - the german emperor who lived in Vienna before Napoleon destroyed the holy empire. Because of Napoleons attacks he was only the Austrian emperor any longer. Someone knocks in this ritual three times. A monk asks "Who is there?". Later 2 times is the anwer "We don't know him" and the last answer is to open the doors. The text starts after the first knocking with all international titles and mights and honors - reduces after the second knocking to the personal name and title - and ends after the third knocking with the forename and "a poor sinner". That's what we are - everyone of us - without any exception. Poor sinners. Everyone needs the grace of god.

"Everyone needs the grace of god"

Nonsense! We are all responsible for our own behavior, ESPECIALLY people who have the audacity to assume the leadership of others. There are no "gimmies". There is no "forgiveness". There are no "mulligans".

An atheist takes the lead position seriously. He or she understands the weight of the responsibility in telling others to risk their lives to support the leader's decisions. Unless the atheist is also a psychopath and a sociopath he or she must absolutely believe in any "path" chosen that risks other's lost future.

"We" (=spiritual human beings believing in god) will see what you think about after your death. And you are right: You are - like everyone else - responsible in the eyes of god for your deeds - that's what "responsibility" means. Responsibilty and freedom are the two sides of the same coin. There's no difference between anyone on this planet - everyone is responsible - no one has any excuse. On the other side: Everyone is free. To live on the own free will in slavery is also not an excuse.

There will be nothing after my death. No judgement by you or anything will I have to endure. That is by the departed.

If I was in a position of leadership and made beau-coup mistakes that hurt the lives of those still drawing breath THAT is the only judgement I would have to pay for. Except I would be dead. The eyes and ears no workie.

Do you think Hitler squirms in some way tortured and uncomfortable? If you do you are a fool. That is why what you do while a horrible person is alive is all that matters. There is no hell. Adolf got away with it. He just smooth got away with it. All that whining about how Hitler will pay in hell is the real evil of christianity. You all ask "what bad could believing in a god and a heaven and a hell possibly do?" It's just THAT giving evil a pass here on earth in what I like to call "reality" based on your firm beliefs you also defer the acts of evil to the judgement of your god. You enable acts of evil. You are the co-conspirators of the evil that happens.

As long as you pass judgement to some afterlife hearing and indictment you enable evil to use your stupidity against the living.

And many of the people posting about being such good religious people are also PRO death penalty. Lol. I think that directly goes against the teachings of Christ.

Im not so sure that Jesus was anti Death penalty. There was that phrase he used, " render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render unto God what is God's" ( or something like that) I think that means to obey the laws in the Temporal world as they are in place and then to live your personal life in a way that is obedient to God, with the emphasis of the next life which is supposed to be eternal.
Jesus did allow himself to be executed with that same understanding I think

I don't think so. Jesus forgave the other "sinners" who were crucified along with him. He was not a fan of "killing." Of course the religious people will say otherwise to make themselves sound better.