If scotland secedes from the UK, should america apologize for not letting the south secede in 1861?

[hazlnut]

The south has been condemned for 150 years for merely trying to secede from what they felt was an oppressive govt. That's what the original 13 colonies did in 1776 and what scotland is trying to do now.

It was a fair fight.

Rebs lost.

Why apologize for a kick-ass victory…

At least if they try it again, fight won't last week… we have drones.

 

[Katzndogz]

Scotland was an independent country at one time.

 

[WinterBorn]

Why should we apologize to a bunch of traitors? I am not saying the people of the modern South are traitors but their ancestors on the other hand...

How were they traitors.? Was George Washington a traitor when he supported seceding from england? THINK

Yes, he was a traitor. At least from England's point of view. Whether he continued to be considered a traitor depended largely on whether he won the war or not. If he had not, he would have been hanged as a traitor.

 

[Toro]

WTF does UK history have to do with USA history?

Remember who you're talking to.

 

[elektra]

No mention of slavery, ignorance has free speech.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

The south has been condemned for 150 years for merely trying to secede from what they felt was an oppressive govt. That's what the original 13 colonies did in 1776 and what scotland is trying to do now.

That's rich, it was the federal government that was oppressive!!! Do you ever THINK before you post?

If only the Southern states had Representatives and Senators in Congress to combat such an oppressive federal government. If only...

Their candidate lost the Presidential election so they decided to leave The Union. If anything they owe America an apology for their traitorous and treasonous actions.

You don't know much about the Civil War, do you?

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

The south has been condemned for 150 years for merely trying to secede from what they felt was an oppressive govt. That's what the original 13 colonies did in 1776 and what scotland is trying to do now.

It was a fair fight.

Rebs lost.

Why apologize for a kick-ass victory…

At least if they try it again, fight won't last week… we have drones.

Around 620,000 soldiers died in the U.S. civil war. The Union lost around 360,000 killed (110,000 in combat) and the Confederacy lost around 260,000 killed (93,000 in combat).

If that is a kick-ass victory, what would you call what the seahawks did to the broncos in the last super bowl?

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

No mention of slavery, ignorance has free speech.

The US Civil War lasted from 1861 to 1865 and led to over 618,000 casualties. Its causes can be traced back to tensions that formed early in the nation's history. Following are the top five causes that led to the "War Between the States."
1. Economic and social differences between the North and the South.
With Eli Whitney's invention of the cotton gin in 1793, cotton became very profitable. This machine was able to reduce the time it took to separate seeds from the cotton. However, at the same time the increase in the number of plantations willing to move from other crops to cotton meant the greater need for a large amount of cheap labor, i.e. slaves. Thus, the southern economy became a one crop economy, depending on cotton and therefore on slavery. On the other hand, the northern economy was based more on industry than agriculture. In fact, the northern industries were purchasing the raw cotton and turning it into finished goods. This disparity between the two set up a major difference in economic attitudes. The South was based on the plantation system while the North was focused on city life. This change in the North meant that society evolved as people of different cultures and classes had to work together. On the other hand, the South continued to hold onto an antiquated social order.

2. States vs. Federal rights.
Since the time of the Revolution, two camps emerged: those arguing for greater states rights and those arguing that the federal government needed to have more control. The first organized government in the US after the American Revolution was under the Articles of Confederation. The thirteen states formed a loose confederation with a very weak federal government. However, when problems arose, the weaknesses of the Articles caused the leaders of the time to come together at the Constitutional Convention and create, in secret, the US Constitution. Strong proponents of states rights like Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry were not present at this meeting. Many felt that the new constitution ignored the rights of states to continue to act independently. They felt that the states should still have the right to decide if they were willing to accept certain federal acts. This resulted in the idea of nullification, whereby the states would have the right to rule federal acts unconstitutional. The federal government denied states this right. However, proponents such as John C. Calhoun fought vehemently for nullification. When nullification would not work and states felt that they were no longer respected, they moved towards secession.

3. The fight between slave and non-slave proponents.
As America began to expand, first with the lands gained from the Louisiana Purchase and later with the Mexican War, the question of whether new states admitted to the union would be slave or free. The Missouri Compromise passed in 1820 made a rule that prohibited slavery in states from the former Louisiana Purchase the latitude 36 degrees 30 minutes north except in Missouri. During the Mexican War, conflict started about what would happen with the new territories that the US expected to gain upon victory. David Wilmot proposed the Wilmot Proviso in 1846 which would ban slavery in the new lands. However, this was shot down to much debate. The Compromise of 1850 was created by Henry Clay and others to deal with the balance between slave and free states, northern and southern interests. One of the provisions was the fugitive slave act. Another issue that further increased tensions was the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854. It created two new territories that would allow the states to use popular sovereignty to determine whether they would be free or slave. The real issue occurred in Kansas where pro-slavery Missourians began to pour into the state to help force it to be slave. They were called "Border Ruffians." Problems came to a head in violence at Lawrence, Kansas. The fighting that occurred caused it to be called "Bleeding Kansas." The fight even erupted on the floor of the senate when anti-slavery proponent Charles Sumner was beat over the head by South Carolina's Senator Preston Brooks.

4. Growth of the Abolition Movement.
Increasingly, the northerners became more polarized against slavery. Sympathies began to grow for abolitionists and against slavery and slaveholders. This occurred especially after some major events including: the publishing of Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin, the Dred Scott Case, John Brown's Raid, and the passage of the fugitive slave act that held individuals responsible for harboring fugitive slaves even if they were located in non-slave states.

5. The election of Abraham Lincoln.
Even though things were already coming to a head, when Lincoln was elected in 1860, South Carolina issued its "Declaration of the Causes of Secession." They believed that Lincoln was anti-slavery and in favor of Northern interests. Before Lincoln was even president, seven states had seceded from the Union: South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas.

Slavery is one of the main reasons the war was fought, but, was far from the only reason.

 

[elektra]

Yep, slavery, thanks for your condensed view of history.

Slavery

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

I have a vested interest in the civil war, due to the fact, that the bridge burners incident, happened in the town I was raised in, Mohawk, TN. As I have said in a former post(not this thread), I am the caretaker of my families cemetery, and have, what is believed to be a few of the men's remains, buried there(it's a long story).

Published: March 2, 1862

From the Knoxville Register, Feb. 8.
In a short article a few weeks ago, announcing the adjournment of the Court Martial in this city, we promised to furnish more in detail some of the facts connected with the burning of the railroad bridges in East Tennessee.

It will be remembered that there were five bridges destroyed by the Lincoln traitors, to wit: the Holston bridge, the Lick Creek, the Hiwassee, and two across the Chickamauga, in Hamilton county -- all occurring on the same night, the night of the 8th or the morning of the 9th of November. An attempt was made also at the same time to fire the Strawberry Plains bridge, which was prevented by the heroic conduct of the watchman, KEELAN. No doubt efforts were also made to destroy the bridge at London, and it doubtless would have been done had not a military force been stationed there. These concurring facts indicated most clearly a general conspiracy for the destruction of all the bridges from Bristol to Chattanooga, and a general uprising of the Unionists in East Tennessee. The latter would have occurred in connection with the former had it not been for the prompt action of the military authorities of the Confederate States in this end of the State, and the failure of the Lincoln forces to push a column across the mountains, as had been promised the Unionists here.

The uprising of the Unionists manifested itself in several localities by the assemblage of armed men for the purpose of resistance to the Confederate Government, to wit: In the counties of Carter, Sevier, Bradley and Hamilton. Expeditions were fitted out with dispatch by our military commanders, and the insurrections in the various localities promptly suppressed. Many of those who were in arms, and those whose conduct had been such as to incite rebellion and insurrection, although not actually in arms, were taken prisoners, and, by order of the War Department, sent to Tuscalocsa as prisoners of war. None of the actual bridge-burners were arrested, excepting those concerned in the Lick Creek bridge in Greene County. Ten or twelve of these were captured, two of whom were executed at Greeneville upon their own confession, and the remainder sent to Knoxville for trial by a military commission, three of whom were punished with death upon most incontrovertible testimony, and upon their own confessions of their guilt. As we have stated before, these persons were all guaranteed a fair trial before the board of officers convened for that purpose, having the benefit of all their testimony, of all the laws governing criminal trials, and of the most distinguished counsel that could be procured.

The facts connected with the burning of the Lick Creek Bridge, as they appeared in the testimony elicited by the Court Martial, have come into our possession from an authentic source, and are as follows:
A man by the name of DAVID FAY, in connection with WM. B. CARTER, both citizens of East Tennessee, but who had lately deserted the land of their birth, fled to Kentucky, and connected themselves with the enemies of their country, returned to East Tennessee after the repulse of Gen. ZOLLICOFFER's command at Rockcastle Hill, for the purpose of inciting a conspiracy with the traitors on this side, which would result in the entire destruction of the railroad facilities here, and then break up and entirely cut off communication between Virginia and the remaining States of the Confederacy, prevent the transportation of troops, provisions and munitions of war, and thus open the way for the successful invasion of our State.

These two men, as is supposed, came first into the county of Anderson, and then, concealed at the house of a Union man, sent, as one of the witnesses heard, for WILLIAM PICKENS, of Sevier, who made the attempt upon Strawberry Plains Bridge, but who, with his gang of fifteen men, was repulsed by KEELAN single-handed and alone, PICKENS himself falling seriously wounded.

It is known that FRY and CARTER passed on into Roane County, and parted at Kingston. At this point we lose sight of CARTER, as no evidence has yet appeared of his whereabouts after that time. FRY, hower, proceeded on his journey up the country, passing through Loudon, (no doubt making every arrangement for the distinction of that bridge,) then passing through Blount County, and finally reaching Greene County two days before the burning of Lick Creek Bridge.

Traveling, as he did, at nights, and laying by in daylight, stealthily and treacherously creeping from one traitor's house to another, his movements could not be traced until he arrived, on the night of Wednesday, the 6th of November, at the house of ANDERSON WALKER, in Greene County. Here he remained until the night of Thursday, the 7th, when he proceeded to MARTIN WALKER's, arriving about 8 o'clock at night. At MARTIN WALKER's he met his wife, and remained until 2 o'clock in the morning of the 8th, stating to WALKER that he was on his way to Kentucky, but wanted to see a friend near Midway, (Lick Creek Bridge,) and asking if JACOB HARMON was as good a Union man as ever. As appeared from the testimony, FRY made no revelations to WALKER of his plans; but starting as he did at 2 o'clock, and not being familiar with the roads, WALKER piloted him about three miles in the direction of Midway.

After leaving WALKER, FRY stopped at the house of DANIEL SMITH, a noted Union man, living five or six miles from the bridge, arriving there about one hour before daylight. Immediately FRY laid his plans before SMITH, who agreed to act as a messenger from FRY to JACOB HARMON, to communicate to HARMON that he (FRY) was at SMITH's house, that he had come to destroy the railroad, and that he wanted to see HARMON at SMITH's house that morning. This message was communicated by SMITH to JACOB HARMON about 8 o'clock on the morning of the 8th of November, and accordingly HARMON, who was a leading Union spirit in the neighborhood, repaired to SMITH's house, where the plans were unfolded, and the plot and programme agreed upon. HARMON was to go home, circulate the fact throughout the neighborhood, and gather the Unionists, assembling them at his house on that night, whilst FRY would remain at SMITH's until nightfall, and then repair to HARMON's house to consummate the conspiracy.

HARMON did his share of the work well, for as early as 9 o'clock at night between thirty and forty conspirators had met at his house, ready to be led by their chief on his arrival, and eager for the destruction of the property. At that hour FRY alighted from his horse and bounded into the yard, exclaiming, "Friends, I am Col. FRY, and I am come to share with you." The party immediately assembled in the house, when FRY commenced haranguing the crowd by revealing his plans, and urging them on to deeds of violence, until the crowd were almost unanimous in their expressions of approbation, and with one accord determined that the bridge should be destroyed -- that FRY should be their leader, and that they would follow him, if necessary, to death.

Fry drew forth a United States flag, and spreading it upon a table in the centre of the room, called upon his followers to surround that emblem of the Union, and take with him the oath of allegiance. Thin was late in the night, and after the whole plot had been fully understood, the conspirators surrounded the table in groups, and, by direction of the leader, placed their left hands upon the folds of the flag, raising aloft their right hands, and swearing to support the Constitution of the United States, to sustain the flag there spread before them, and to do that night whatever may be impressed upon them by their chief. This oath was taken by all, except two or three, in solemn earnest, and in silence; the darkness relieved alone by the dim and flickering light of a solitary candle. The scene was impressive -- the occasion was full of moment -- the hour was fit, and everything conspired to fill the hearts of the traitors with a fixed determination.

Aroused thus to the highest pitch of malice and revenge, the chief of the conspirators immediately led the way to the bridge, and was followed in eager haste by the willing crowd. The Confederate guard, consisting of five soldiers, watching the bridge, were immediately surrounded by the imfuriated mob, and were held in close confinement, whilst FRY, still leading the way, and still followed by the boldest of his clan, hastened to the wooden structure, applied the torch, and the whole was consumed and burned to the ground in an hour. Upon returning to the guarded soldiers, FRY graciously extended to them their lives upon condition that they would take the oath of allegiance to the United States -- saying that now "he had them under his thumb, and the d -- d telegraph and railroad would tell upon them no longer." This closed the scene -- the party of traitors dispersed to their homes for the night -- many of them to be captured on the morrow, and the remainder to flee to the woods and mountains, as outcasts from their homes.

The foregoing are the leading facts as were developed in the trial of a number of the conspirators, and the leading spirits in the deed of destruction were David Fry, Jacob Harmon, C.A. Hann, Daniel Smith, Henry Harmon, Henry Fry, and twenty or thirty others, whose names it is not prudent to mention.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I grew up around Lick Creek, and then moved to Strawberry Plains, when I started high school, it was there I first discovered the bridge burners, and then later realized they burned the bridge, located where I had walked across the new bridge in Mohawk. Big coincidence.

There is much civil war history in our area, from the battle of Blue Springs to skirmishes all around here. It is truly fascinating to learn.

 

[elektra]

Thank you for your long account of an event I am not familiar with.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

Thank you for your long account of an event I am not familiar with.

You are welcome. If you or anyone on here(yes, anyone), ever gets to the area, holler at me, and I will give you a tour of the area. And there is a great civil war re-inactment of the battle of Blue Springs every year. It draws thousands of on lookers.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

Yep, slavery, thanks for your condensed view of history.

Slavery

and you talk of ignorance, yet show your own much more.

Right, what bug is up your ass, I thanked your last post, I read your posts.

Yep slavery, you care to speculate on history or simply care to be recognized for posting so much that breaks down to, slavery.

Anyhow, attack me if you like, big deal, shows you may actually be the ignorant one, missing much of the meaning of my simple post.

The op did not mention slavery at all, I was the first to point out what seems to be a revisionist history, due to the lack of the mention of slavery.

If that did not bother you, as it seems, and now your quip with me, makes me so ignorance when you look above your nice cut/paste job.

Good day!

I apologize, I did not recognize the fact that you were pointing that out, I thought you were just being a butthead(far to many of those on here), my bad, I do sincerely apologize.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

The south has been condemned for 150 years for merely trying to secede from what they felt was an oppressive govt. That's what the original 13 colonies did in 1776 and what scotland is trying to do now.

It was a fair fight.

Rebs lost.

Why apologize for a kick-ass victory…

At least if they try it again, fight won't last week… we have drones.

Fair fight? HAHAHA. Lincoln used war-crime tactics to win the war.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

[
Slavery is one of the main reasons the war was fought, but, was far from the only reason.

In your list of the five reasons for the civil war, you left out tariffs. As for slavery, it was a small part of what the war was about. How could it be otherwise when

1. four northern states had legal slavery throughout the war

2. a number of northern generals, including Grant, were slave owners during the war

3. Andrew Johnson was a slave owner during the war.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

Why should we apologize to a bunch of traitors? I am not saying the people of the modern South are traitors but their ancestors on the other hand...

How were they traitors.? Was George Washington a traitor when he supported seceding from england? THINK

Yes, he was a traitor.

the father of your country and you ADMIT you consider him a traitor? All liberals are america-haters. Thanks for proving that.

 

[bodecea]

The south has been condemned for 150 years for merely trying to secede from what they felt was an oppressive govt. That's what the original 13 colonies did in 1776 and what scotland is trying to do now.

The war didn't happen until those idiots shot on a U.S. Federal Installation. Then they lost the war they started.

 

[bodecea]

Why should we apologize to a bunch of traitors? I am not saying the people of the modern South are traitors but their ancestors on the other hand...

How were they traitors.? Was George Washington a traitor when he supported seceding from england? THINK

He would have been...if he'd lost. His name was on a British list to be arrested and hanged once the rebellion was over. And in that rebellion, the shooting started first.

 

[bodecea]

Why should we apologize to a bunch of traitors? I am not saying the people of the modern South are traitors but their ancestors on the other hand...

How were they traitors.? Was George Washington a traitor when he supported seceding from england? THINK

Yes, he was a traitor.

the father of your country and you ADMIT you consider him a traitor? All liberals are america-haters. Thanks for proving that.

What an idiot you are....and I mean that with all sincerity.

 

[bodecea]

[
Slavery is one of the main reasons the war was fought, but, was far from the only reason.

In your list of the five reasons for the civil war, you left out tariffs. As for slavery, it was a small part of what the war was about. How could it be otherwise when

1. four northern states had legal slavery throughout the war

2. a number of northern generals, including Grant, were slave owners during the war

3. Andrew Johnson was a slave owner during the war.

Because the South SAID it was about slavery...in each and every one of their Articles of Secession. Can you be any stupider?