If Ukraine loses the war and Russia occupies Ukraine, the US and Europe may not have a choice, but to go to war

[toomuchtime_]

Doesn't matter how many times you say it, doesn't make it true.

We both know that Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, so why make a fool of yourself by denying it.

 

[Deadstick]

We both know that Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, so why make a fool of yourself by denying it.

You are the one making a fool of yourself by keep repeating it without showing any evidence.

 

[toomuchtime_]

You are the one making a fool of yourself by keep repeating it without showing any evidence.

I showed you evidence that Russian invaded Ukraine in 2014, including statements from pro-Russian Ukrainians, and you just continue to tout Putin's lies.

 

[Deadstick]

I showed you evidence that Russian invaded Ukraine in 2014, including statements from pro-Russian Ukrainians, and you just continue to tout Putin's lies.

You have shown no evidence, sorry no Cigar.

 

[toomuchtime_]

You have shown no evidence, sorry no Cigar.

I showed you two Wikipedia articles that detailed the 2014 Russian invasion of Ukraine, dipshit.

 

[Deadstick]

I showed you two Wikipedia articles that detailed the 2014 Russian invasion of Ukraine, dipshit.

The article showed jack shit, just a lot of unfounded accusations, i deal in facts not opinionated bullshit.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The article showed jack shit, just a lot of unfounded accusations, i deal in facts not opinionated bullshit.

If you had even half a functioning brain or any trace of character, you would have noted that the articles contained footnotes providing the sources of the facts it reported and full discussions of the validity of the sources, but your post reveals you to be just an ignorant bigot incapable of dealing with either facts or logic.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

An entirely irrelevant post. The issue was whether or not Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, the fact that it did, is undeniable by any honest person, even by the pro Russian Ukrainians.

Unfortunately for you, this is neither your OP nor are you a Moderator here — so you don’t get to decide what is “relevant” to this discussion.

I do agree that without “volunteer” help from Russia, for example from those under command of “Great Russian Nationalist” ex-FSB officer Igor Girkin (who coordinated the quick and mostly peaceful Russian Crimea takeover) the Donbas secessionists by themselves would have been defeated completely in 2014 by Ukrainian troops and privately hired “anti-terrorist” groups. Over time, Russia increasingly came to dominate the “secessionist” struggle in Donbas.

But when a “Revolution” overthrows a corrupt — but fairly elected —government that perhaps a third of the country still supports, that part in this case being mostly native Russian speakers in the East and Crimea, you can be sure there will be complications. Complications that might not have existed had the Maidan radicals waited just a few months until a new election could be held — which they would have won. The street violence in and after Maidan, the new government’s unfortunate early decision to attack the Russian language (later amended) and of course the burning to death of some 40 Russian militants at the Odessa Trades Union building … obviously exacerbated fears and strengthened Russian propaganda in 2014.

Historically, when interpenetrated but increasingly mutually hostile peoples find themselves in the midst of emerging mob violence and civil war, outside international forces like the League of Nations / UN or concerned parties seeking peace would at least suggest solutions like local autonomy, federalism, or even self-determination & “land for peace.”

None of that was acceptable to hard Ukrainian nationalists backed by the West. Of course Ukrainian nationalism had long experienced and developed in opposition to Russian bullying, interference & chauvinism that threatened their fragile Ukrainian sovereignty and their newly emergent and understandable desire to join the West.

Rather than go on forever, I will stop here and let any readers think for themselves on some of the issues I just raised.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Unfortunately for you, this is neither your OP nor are you a Moderator here — so you don’t get to decide what is “relevant” to this discussion.

I do agree that without “volunteer” help from Russia, for example from those under command of “Great Russian Nationalist” ex-FSB officer Igor Girkin (who coordinated the quick and mostly peaceful Russian Crimea takeover) the Donbas secessionists by themselves would have been defeated completely in 2014 by Ukrainian troops and privately hired “anti-terrorist” groups. Over time, Russia increasingly came to dominate the “secessionist” struggle in Donbas.

But when a “Revolution” overthrows a corrupt — but fairly elected —government that perhaps a third of the country still supports, that part in this case being mostly native Russian speakers in the East and Crimea, you can be sure there will be complications. Complications that might not have existed had the Maidan radicals waited just a few months until a new election could be held — which they would have won. The street violence in and after Maidan, the new government’s unfortunate early decision to attack the Russian language (later amended) and of course the burning to death of some 40 Russian militants at the Odessa Trades Union building … obviously exacerbated fears and strengthened Russian propaganda in 2014.

Historically, when interpenetrated but increasingly mutually hostile peoples find themselves in the midst of emerging mob violence and civil war, outside international forces like the League of Nations / UN or concerned parties seeking peace would at least suggest solutions like local autonomy, federalism, or even self-determination & “land for peace.”

None of that was acceptable to hard Ukrainian nationalists backed by the West. Of course Ukrainian nationalism had long experienced and developed in opposition to Russian bullying, interference & chauvinism that threatened their fragile Ukrainian sovereignty and their newly emergent desire to join the West.

Rather than go on forever, I will stop here and let any readers think for themselves on some of the issues I just raised.

You raised no relevant issues. The issue was, did Russia invade Ukraine in 2014, and you want to avoid answering the question to try to justify the invasion without acknowledging it took place.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

You raised no relevant issues. The issue was, did Russia invade Ukraine in 2014, and you want to avoid answering the question to try to justify the invasion without acknowledging it took place.

The OP subject that I have addressed but you have not is …

“If Ukraine loses the war and Russia occupies Ukraine, the US and Europe may not have a choice, but to go to war.”​

In other words, it is about … larger issues.

As for your issue concerning the “Russian invasion” in 2014, I outlined a few stages of what happened then, did not discuss many others, and explained what I thought was necessary now that Putin’s all-out Feb. 2022 invasion and attempt to overthrow the Kiev government has failed and the war may deadlock.

I would point out that Obama and NATO rightly, imo, did not try to physically stop the Russian takeover of Crimea — where the population overwhelmingly then genuinely felt safer and more comfortable becoming a part of Russia. Biden also rightly tailored his military aid and sanctions to the scale of Putin’s 2022 action — he even indicated a “small” incursion would not be treated as a major invasion would. Even Zelensky, elected as a peace candidate, was quite willing to discuss the Minsk-II accords until his own right wing and military leadership vetoed it.

So the question can legitimately be asked whether this was all “one invasion” or if parts of it could have been prevented.

Can a peace based on some approximation to “self-determination” be negotiated … in the case of Crimea? Can peace partly based on a realpolitik adjustment of “land for peace” eventually emerge in Donbas or other areas if mutual exhaustion with the war in both Russia and Ukraine occurs?

Talking exclusively of the past as if only one side is to blame for everything, even though one side is mainly to blame, may just be a way to prevent any possible future resolution of this potentially endless conflict.

 

[Silver Cat]

Of course Saaksavili is no war criminal. You have to be little better than a Russian bot or Putin or Trump fanatic to say that.

People in Georgia still overwhelmingly want to join the EU, and apparently NATO too. Of course Georgians also don’t want to be destroyed by a Russian invasion either! They are, after all, less than 4 million Georgians altogether. Right now they are making money trading with both sides and de facto ignoring Western sanctions, but the day may come when the present situation becomes less acceptable and opportunities greater. This article is, I think, interesting, but hardly dispositive:

Georgia’s EU dreams live or die with Mikheil Saakashvili

The death of the former president could sink Georgia’s EU hopes for good.

www.politico.eu

Some Georgians say that they want to join EU. Some Georgians say that they want to join Russia. Actually, it depends mostly on who interrogate them, or how much money can you suggest them. Most of people don't care about flags. They care about their freedom and their wealth.

 

[Silver Cat]

You raised no relevant issues. The issue was, did Russia invade Ukraine in 2014, and you want to avoid answering the question to try to justify the invasion without acknowledging it took place.

It depends on the point of view. From the Russian point of view, they didn't invade Ukraine.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The OP subject that I have addressed but you have not is …

“If Ukraine loses the war and Russia occupies Ukraine, the US and Europe may not have a choice, but to go to war.”​

In other words, it is about … larger issues.

As for your issue concerning the “Russian invasion” in 2014, I outlined a few stages of what happened then, did not discuss many others, and explained what I thought was necessary now that Putin’s all-out Feb. 2022 invasion and attempt to overthrow the Kiev government has failed and the war may deadlock.

I would point out that Obama and NATO rightly, imo, did not try to physically stop the Russian takeover of Crimea — where the population overwhelmingly then genuinely felt safer and more comfortable becoming a part of Russia. Biden also rightly tailored his military aid and sanctions to the scale of Putin’s 2022 action — he even indicated a “small” incursion would not be treated as a major invasion would. Even Zelensky, elected as a peace candidate, was quite willing to discuss the Minsk-II accords until his own right wing and military leadership vetoed it.

So the question can legitimately be asked whether this was all “one invasion” or if parts of it could have been prevented.

Can a peace based on some approximation to “self-determination” be negotiated … in the case of Crimea? Can peace partly based on a realpolitik adjustment of “land for peace” eventually emerge in Donbas or other areas if mutual exhaustion with the war in both Russia and Ukraine occurs?

Talking exclusively of the past as if only one side is to blame for everything, even though one side is mainly to blame, may just be a way to prevent any possible future resolution of this potentially endless conflict.

Disabuse yourself of the notion you are being clever. You responded to posts about whether or not Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 by talking about everything but whether Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. If you just came clean and admitted your only purpose here is to try to convince people to stop aiding Ukraine, it would make more sense that you avoid anything that might be positive about Ukraine and try to defend whatever Russia does.

 

[toomuchtime_]

It depends on the point of view. From the Russian point of view, they didn't invade Ukraine.

No, idiot, the Russians know they invaded Ukraine, but they, and you, see nothing wrong with it.

 

[Deadstick]

No, idiot, the Russians know they invaded Ukraine, but they, and you, see nothing wrong with it.

They should have done it years sooner when the Genocide started.

 

[Silver Cat]

No, idiot, the Russians know they invaded Ukraine, but they, and you, see nothing wrong with it.

It depends on the point of view. From their point of view, Neo-Nazi coup in Kiev has destroyed tolerant and, therefore, tolerable Ukraine. And fighting against discriminative, abusive and anti-Russian Kievan regime is a simple self-defense.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

If you just came clean and admitted your only purpose here is to try to convince people to stop aiding Ukraine, it would make more sense that you avoid anything that might be positive about Ukraine and try to defend whatever Russia does. [Bold emphasis mine.]

What a STUPID dishonest remark — especially since I have said a hundred times that I SUPPORT financial and military assistance to Ukraine.

Your intellectually dishonest slander gives a bad name to “Liberalism” and to efforts to defend genuine freedom and democracy abroad.

You seem almost as quick to use ad hominem slander as Idiotic right and left supporters of Putin, or as Trumpster fanatics who defend the indefensible.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Some Georgians say that they want to join EU. Some Georgians say that they want to join Russia….

Very few Georgians want to “join Russia.” They mostly cherish their independence and have no desire to go back under the Russian boot.

You are correct Georgians want to be “wealthy and free” … like most people everywhere.

The funny thing is that many young Russian men are learning what a great thing it is that Georgia is now an independent country — after all, it’s probably the easiest country to escape into to avoid conscription into Putin’s army!

 

[Ringo]

The West has started dumping Ukraine
As Western image-makers are used to doing, everything starts with the press. The "authoritative" and "independent" publications are now full of articles like this. Some brakes like the Air Force still inertially tell about unfortunate refugees, the brutality of russian occupants and selfless (but useless) military training of "real ukrainians". But there are more and more such articles. And this is preparation for the dump....

Ukraine has tested its allies' patience with its military strategy and demands

Most recently, tensions have emerged over Ukraine's military strategy and demands on NATO.

www.cnbc.com

 

[ralfy]

The first Russan invasion of Ukraine was in 2014.

It started with a revolution pushed by the U.S., which led to Russia annexing the Crimea, which is dominated by Russians, followed by support for Russian separatists. Russia invaded much later to protect the latter.