If Ukraine loses the war and Russia occupies Ukraine, the US and Europe may not have a choice, but to go to war

[Markle]

That’s bullshit. You are just proving that all you see is Democrats bad, Republicans good. Democrats incompetent. Trump … a genius.

And you do? And Russians do? And Putin does? The Ukrainian leaders are Ukrainians, and they care about their country more than anybody else. That doesn’t mean Ukrainian nationalists are always correct in their decisions, however.

More ignorant talk. Zelensky risked death and acted bravely. The Ukrainian people are diverse and overwhelmingly are NOT “Nazi-Collaborants,” whatever that is. That’s why they voted for Zelensky … overwhelmingly. After the Russian invasion they rallied … magnificently. Hundreds of thousands proved, even when the world thought they had no chance, they were willing to risk death to keep Putin’s soldiers out.

His “team”? Trump had no “team.” He just borrowed from here and there, shuffling top aides out as soon as they didn’t act as total “yes men,” and then brought in new less competent toadies. Most of our military men and State Department specialists are professionals, not “party partisans.”

Also, see my comment #524 on why Putin loved Trump dividing our nation and NATO — and so bided his time. By the way Putin still must hope Trump can somehow win in 2024!

 

[Ringo]

Ukraine is a great country!
Its citizens lead in strawberry picking in Poland, it is ruled by Americans, they fight on German tanks fueled by Russian fuel!

 

[JohnDB]

 

[ralfy]

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www.nato.int

 

[toomuchtime_]

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www.nato.int

Not quite true. Obama had refused to give Ukraine offensive weapons, but Trump changed that and sent offensive weapons to Ukraine. At the time of the 2022 Russian invasion, Ukraine was still poorly armed and most of what it had was left over Russian weapons from the Soviet days, but after watching the AFU chase the Russian army from Kiev all the way back to the border, the US and European allies began to send some serious offensive weapons to Ukraine.

 

[Silver Cat]

Sorry, Silver Cat , but I’m afraid you are showing some ignorance about today’s Georgia. Georgia certainly needs American money — who doesn’t? — but it isn’t getting too many weapons because the present government there is too close to Russia.

The ruling party there has jailed and brutally isolated the now very sick pro-Western Georgian ex-President Mikheil Saakashvili. Saakashvilli was the brave and flamboyant leader of the Rose Revolution in 2003, and a close friend of Bush’s in 2008 when Bush and he were already pushing NATO membership for Georgia. We can probably agree that that NATO push was at least premature … and backfired badly.

The present regime in Georgia trades a lot with Russia (but still officially.seeks to join the EU). It is much less corrupt than before the Rose Revolution. It is a multi-party democratic Republic, but reportedly “backsliding,” still corrupt, culturally conservative and rightwing. The people of the country are probably more pro-Western (and more pro-NATO) than the ruling party. Perhaps some Trumpsters would like it there …

Georgia Pride festival in Tbilisi stormed by right-wing protesters

Up to 2,000 protesters stormed a gay pride festival, in a country where anti-LGBT prejudice is common.

www.bbc.com

Yes, of course. And the whole Rustavelli street is now speaking Russian. And it is good, not bad, for almost all parties concerned, including the USA. And people there like it that way. "Make money, not war", they say. And putting few war criminals (like Saakashvili) in jail is worth it.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

And people there like it that way. "Make money, not war", they say. And putting few war criminals (like Saakashvili) in jail is worth it.

Of course Saaksavili is no war criminal. You have to be little better than a Russian bot or Putin or Trump fanatic to say that.

People in Georgia still overwhelmingly want to join the EU, and apparently NATO too. Of course Georgians also don’t want to be destroyed by a Russian invasion either! They are, after all, less than 4 million Georgians altogether. Right now they are making money trading with both sides and de facto ignoring Western sanctions, but the day may come when the present situation becomes less acceptable and opportunities greater. This article is, I think, interesting, but hardly dispositive:

Georgia’s EU dreams live or die with Mikheil Saakashvili

The death of the former president could sink Georgia’s EU hopes for good.

www.politico.eu

 

[ralfy]

Not quite true. Obama had refused to give Ukraine offensive weapons, but Trump changed that and sent offensive weapons to Ukraine. At the time of the 2022 Russian invasion, Ukraine was still poorly armed and most of what it had was left over Russian weapons from the Soviet days, but after watching the AFU chase the Russian army from Kiev all the way back to the border, the US and European allies began to send some serious offensive weapons to Ukraine.

That's Stoltenberg, not Obama, and he claims that the war started in 2014.

 

[toomuchtime_]

That's Stoltenberg, not Obama, and he claims that the war started in 2014.

The first Russan invasion of Ukraine was in 2014.

 

[Deadstick]

That's Stoltenberg, not Obama, and he claims that the war started in 2014.

It did start in 2014 and the Russians were not part of it at the time, it was a war by Kiev on it's own citizens in Donbass.

 

[Deadstick]

The first Russan invasion of Ukraine was in 2014.

I would like to see some video evidence of that invasion, of course you can't show any because it's fiction, but go for it.

 

[Ringo]

The russians continue to celebrate the completion of the grain deal. This night, the ukrainian port of Izmail in the Danube delta was hit. Judging by the cries in the ukrochannels, it hit where it should and how it should.
The functioning of the port has been halted, and the port infrastructure and elevator have been damaged.

 

[toomuchtime_]

It did start in 2014 and the Russians were not part of it at the time, it was a war by Kiev on it's own citizens in Donbass.

"In February and March 2014, Russia invaded and subsequently annexed the Crimean Peninsula from Ukraine. This event took place in the relative power vacuum[31] on the immediate aftermath of the Revolution of Dignity and was the beginning act of the wider Russo-Ukrainian War."

Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The war in Donbas,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014–2022)#cite_note-19 or Donbas war, was an armed conflict in the Donbas region of Ukraine, part of the broader Russo-Ukrainian War. The war began in April 2014 when armed Russian-backed separatists seized government buildings and the Ukrainian military launched an operation against them. It continued until it was subsumed by the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.[18][19]

In March 2014, following Ukraine's Revolution of Dignity, anti-revolution and pro-Russian protests began in Ukraine's Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, collectively 'the Donbas'. These began as Russia invaded and annexed Crimea. Armed Russian-backed separatists seized Ukrainian government buildings and declared the Donetsk and Luhansk republics (DPR and LPR) as independent states, leading to conflict with Ukrainian government forces.[20] Russia covertly supported the separatists with troops and weaponry. It only admitted sending "military specialists",[21][22] but later acknowledged the separatists as Russian combat veterans.[23] In April 2014, Ukraine launched a counter-offensive, called the "Anti-Terrorist Operation"[24] (ATO), later renamed the "Joint Forces Operation" (JFO).[25][26] By late August 2014, Ukraine had re-taken most separatist-held territory and nearly regained control of the Russia–Ukraine border.[27] In response, Russia covertly sent troops, tanks and artillery into the Donbas.[28][29] Ukrainian officials called this a Russian "stealth invasion".[29][30] The Russian incursion helped pro-Russian forces regain much of the territory they had lost.[25][31] Alexander Borodai, former 'Prime Minister' of the DPR, said 50,000 "Russian volunteers" had fought in the first five months.[32]

War in Donbas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The whole world knows the truth, so why continue to lie about this?

 

[Deadstick]

"In February and March 2014, Russia invaded and subsequently annexed the Crimean Peninsula from Ukraine. This event took place in the relative power vacuum[31] on the immediate aftermath of the Revolution of Dignity and was the beginning act of the wider Russo-Ukrainian War."

Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The war in Donbas,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014–2022)#cite_note-19 or Donbas war, was an armed conflict in the Donbas region of Ukraine, part of the broader Russo-Ukrainian War. The war began in April 2014 when armed Russian-backed separatists seized government buildings and the Ukrainian military launched an operation against them. It continued until it was subsumed by the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.[18][19]

In March 2014, following Ukraine's Revolution of Dignity, anti-revolution and pro-Russian protests began in Ukraine's Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, collectively 'the Donbas'. These began as Russia invaded and annexed Crimea. Armed Russian-backed separatists seized Ukrainian government buildings and declared the Donetsk and Luhansk republics (DPR and LPR) as independent states, leading to conflict with Ukrainian government forces.[20] Russia covertly supported the separatists with troops and weaponry. It only admitted sending "military specialists",[21][22] but later acknowledged the separatists as Russian combat veterans.[23] In April 2014, Ukraine launched a counter-offensive, called the "Anti-Terrorist Operation"[24] (ATO), later renamed the "Joint Forces Operation" (JFO).[25][26] By late August 2014, Ukraine had re-taken most separatist-held territory and nearly regained control of the Russia–Ukraine border.[27] In response, Russia covertly sent troops, tanks and artillery into the Donbas.[28][29] Ukrainian officials called this a Russian "stealth invasion".[29][30] The Russian incursion helped pro-Russian forces regain much of the territory they had lost.[25][31] Alexander Borodai, former 'Prime Minister' of the DPR, said 50,000 "Russian volunteers" had fought in the first five months.[32]

War in Donbas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The whole world knows the truth, so why continue to lie about this?

Total bullshit, it was the citizens in Donbass that seized Government buildings because it was no longer a legitimate Government, that article is full of nonsense accusing Russia of sending troops and weapons into Donbass, but they never show any evidence, there were volunteers but that was not the Russian army, there were volunteers on the Ukrainian side many neonazis many from the US and Europe, some had their balls barbecued, the coup regime sent not just the army but Nazi thugs like Azov and the so called Tornado battalion led by a child raping psycho who went on a killing and raping spree in Donbass, it says officials called it the stealth invasion Lol! thats because there was no invasion, this is what a invasion looks like even though a limited one, when Russia went into South Ossetia to teach that tie eating moron Saackashvili a lesson, he had launched a midnight Blitzkrieg against South Ossetia killing civilians and Russian peacekeepers,yet another conflict America instigated, the Moron thought Nato had his back.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Total bullshit, it was the citizens in Donbass that seized Government buildings because it was no longer a legitimate Government, that article is full of nonsense accusing Russia of sending troops and weapons into Donbass, but they never show any evidence, there were volunteers but that was not the Russian army, there were volunteers on the Ukrainian side many neonazis many from the US and Europe, some had their balls barbecued, the coup regime sent not just the army but Nazi thugs like Azov and the so called Tornado battalion led by a child raping psycho who went on a killing and raping spree in Donbass, it says officials called it the stealth invasion Lol! thats because there was no invasion, this is what a invasion looks like even though a limited one, when Russia went into South Ossetia to teach that tie eating moron Saackashvili a lesson, he had launched a midnight Blitzkrieg against South Ossetia killing civilians and Russian peacekeepers,yet another conflict America instigated, the Moron thought Nato had his back.

The whole world knows there was a Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2014, so why shame yourself with these ridiculous lies?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Russian nationalist warmonger Ringo seems happy to celebrate Putin ending the single most important cooperative agreement made with Ukraine … to guarantee grain exports through Black Sea waters. Not something to celebrate, but only another step toward wider war and more human suffering. Sad and pathetic.

As to 2014, Deadstick and toomuchtime_ each provide one dimensional views of who was to blame for 2014. What happened then should not really be too surprising for anyone familiar with “realpolitik” given the inflamed nationalist emotions of the time. It was a tragic beginning to a conflict whose even more tragic results are now apparent, as Putin’s brutal invasion has failed to defeat Ukrainian national resistance, now backed by military and financial aid from the U.S. and NATO.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Pro-Russian warmonger Ringo seems happy to celebrate Putin ending the single most important cooperative agreement made with Ukraine … to guarantee grain exports through Black Sea waters. Not something to celebrate, but only another step toward wider war and more human suffering. Sad and pathetic.

As to 2014, Deadstick and toomuchtime_ each provide one dimensional views of who was to blame for 2014. What happened then should not really be too surprising for anyone familiar with “realpolitik” given the inflamed nationalist emotions of the time. It was a tragic beginning to a conflict whose even more tragic results are now apparent, as Putin’s brutal invasion has failed to defeat Ukrainian national resistance, now backed by military and financial aid from the U.S. and NATO.

You really do have no shame at all, do you? Deadstick presents Putin's lies about 2014 and I present the view of the rest of the world, and you see them as equal? Shame on you.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

You really do have no shame at all, do you? Deadstick presents Putin's lies about 2014 and I present the view of the rest of the world, and you see them as equal? Shame on you.

Dead stick does present some “lies” about 2014. But you also do not tell the whole story. You do not present the views of “the rest of the world,” let alone the view of thoughtful objective internationalists who warned that the Maidan Revolution, however popular at the time among Ukrainian nationalists and ordinary pro-EU, pro-Western young people in Kiev … would likely result in war.

I do not consider both sides as “equal” however. I support necessary Western aid to Ukraine, whose people now overwhelmingly hate the bloody Russian invaders. On the other hand, I look for ways to end this war on reasonable terms that can last, and remain aware of the danger of it getting even more out of control.

 

[Deadstick]

The whole world knows there was a Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2014, so why shame yourself with these ridiculous lies?

Doesn't matter how many times you say it, doesn't make it true.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Dead stick does present some “lies” about 2014. But you also do not tell the whole story. You do not present the views of “the rest of the world,” let alone the view of thoughtful objective internationalists who warned that the Maidan Revolution, however popular at the time among Ukrainian nationalists and ordinary pro-EU, pro-Western young people in Kiev … would likely result in war.

I do not consider both sides as “equal” however. I support necessary Western aid to Ukraine, whose people now overwhelmingly hate the bloody Russian invaders. On the other hand, I look for ways to end this war on reasonable terms that can last, and remain aware of the danger of it getting even more out of control.

An entirely irrelevant post. The issue was whether or not Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, the fact that it did, is undeniable by any honest person, even by the pro Russian Ukrainians.