If We Erase The Christian Basis Of Governance, Then What Do We Unleash?

I would no more Mormons or Baptists or Muslims running things politically than I would atheists or agnostics.

Government is deliberately faith free, folks: believe or not, it does not matter at the court house.


Government and the LAW itself are indeed faith free and you are right, they SHOULD be.

But the "principles" of the Law are indeed based in Christianity and you know this very well.
Now that, I can accept....since most of the founders grew up as Christians or in Christian communities...

but Enlightenment is what many founders believed in, and this movement in no way shape or form, was a thing that supported religion of any kind, ruling the government or in the pockets of government....or a theocracy rule. They believed in the separation of church and State as far as governance....

BUT NOT as far as wiping out the mention of God, in everything the government did....as there are some atheist movements to do such and are claiming.... the founders were fine with religion in the Public Square....they just did not want Established Religions as being a part of government rule, imo.

Above you will see a widely spread fictional story written by progressives historical reconstructionists. There are many reason why it's all wrong.

WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Separation of Church and State

The Separation of Church and State
In 1947, in the case Everson v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court declared, "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach." The "separation of church and state" phrase which they invoked, and which has today become so familiar, was taken from an exchange of letters between President Thomas Jefferson and the Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, shortly after Jefferson became President.

The election of Jefferson – America's first Anti-Federalist President – elated many Baptists since that denomination, by-and-large, was also strongly Anti-Federalist. This political disposition of the Baptists was understandable, for from the early settlement of Rhode Island in the 1630s to the time of the federal Constitution in the 1780s, the Baptists had often found themselves suffering from the centralization of power.

Consequently, now having a President who not only had championed the rights of Baptists in Virginia but who also had advocated clear limits on the centralization of government powers, the Danbury Baptists wrote Jefferson a letter of praise on October 7, 1801, telling him:

Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your election to office, we embrace the first opportunity . . . to express our great satisfaction in your appointment to the Chief Magistracy in the United States. . . . [W]e have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State out of that goodwill which He bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you. . . . And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator. [1]
However, in that same letter of congratulations, the Baptists also expressed to Jefferson their grave concern over the entire concept of the First Amendment, including of its guarantee for "the free exercise of religion":

Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific. . . . [T]herefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights. [2]
In short, the inclusion of protection for the "free exercise of religion" in the constitution suggested to the Danbury Baptists that the right of religious expression was government-given (thus alienable) rather than God-given (hence inalienable), and that therefore the government might someday attempt to regulate religious expression. This was a possibility to which they strenuously objected-unless, as they had explained, someone's religious practice caused him to "work ill to his neighbor."

Jefferson understood their concern; it was also his own. In fact, he made numerous declarations about the constitutional inability of the federal government to regulate, restrict, or interfere with religious expression. For example:

[N]o power over the freedom of religion . . . [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution. Kentucky Resolution, 1798 [3]

In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general [federal] government. Second Inaugural Address, 1805 [4]

[O]ur excellent Constitution . . . has not placed our religious rights under the power of any public functionary. Letter to the Methodist Episcopal Church, 1808 [5]

I consider the government of the United States as interdicted [prohibited] by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions . . . or exercises. Letter to Samuel Millar, 1808 [6]
Jefferson believed that the government was to be powerless to interfere with religious expressions for a very simple reason: he had long witnessed the unhealthy tendency of government to encroach upon the free exercise of religion. As he explained to Noah Webster:

It had become an universal and almost uncontroverted position in the several States that the purposes of society do not require a surrender of all our rights to our ordinary governors . . . and which experience has nevertheless proved they [the government] will be constantly encroaching on if submitted to them; that there are also certain fences which experience has proved peculiarly efficacious [effective] against wrong and rarely obstructive of right, which yet the governing powers have ever shown a disposition to weaken and remove. Of the first kind, for instance, is freedom of religion. [7]
Thomas Jefferson had no intention of allowing the government to limit, restrict, regulate, or interfere with public religious practices. He believed, along with the other Founders, that the First Amendment had been enacted only to prevent the federal establishment of a national denomination – a fact he made clear in a letter to fellow-signer of the Declaration of Independence Benjamin Rush:

[T]he clause of the Constitution which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians and Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes and they believe that any portion of power confided to me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly. [8]
Jefferson had committed himself as President to pursuing the purpose of the First Amendment: preventing the "establishment of a particular form of Christianity" by the Episcopalians, Congregationalists, or any other denomination.

Since this was Jefferson's view concerning religious expression, in his short and polite reply to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802, he assured them that they need not fear; that the free exercise of religion would never be interfered with by the federal government. As he explained:

Gentlemen, – The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association give me the highest satisfaction. . . . Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association assurances of my high respect and esteem. [9]
Jefferson's reference to "natural rights" invoked an important legal phrase which was part of the rhetoric of that day and which reaffirmed his belief that religious liberties were inalienable rights. While the phrase "natural rights" communicated much to people then, to most citizens today those words mean little.

By definition, "natural rights" included "that which the Books of the Law and the Gospel do contain." [10] That is, "natural rights" incorporated what God Himself had guaranteed to man in the Scriptures. Thus, when Jefferson assured the Baptists that by following their "natural rights" they would violate no social duty, he was affirming to them that the free exercise of religion was their inalienable God-given right and therefore was protected from federal regulation or interference.

So clearly did Jefferson understand the Source of America's inalienable rights that he even doubted whether America could survive if we ever lost that knowledge. He queried:

And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have lost the only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? [11]
Jefferson believed that God, not government, was the Author and Source of our rights and that the government, therefore, was to be prevented from interference with those rights. Very simply, the "fence" of the Webster letter and the "wall" of the Danbury letter were not to limit religious activities in public; rather they were to limit the power of the government to prohibit or interfere with those expressions.

Earlier courts long understood Jefferson's intent. In fact, when Jefferson's letter was invoked by the Supreme Court (only twice prior to the 1947 Everson case – the Reynolds v. United States case in 1878), unlike today's Courts which publish only his eight-word separation phrase, that earlier Court published Jefferson's entire letter and then concluded:

Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it [Jefferson's letter] may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the Amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere [religious] opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order. (emphasis added) [12]
That Court then succinctly summarized Jefferson's intent for "separation of church and state":

[T]he rightful purposes of civil government are for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order. In th[is] . . . is found the true distinction between what properly belongs to the church and what to the State. [13]
With this even the Baptists had agreed; for while wanting to see the government prohibited from interfering with or limiting religious activities, they also had declared it a legitimate function of government "to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor."

That Court, therefore, and others (for example, Commonwealth v. Nesbit and Lindenmuller v. The People), identified actions into which – if perpetrated in the name of religion – the government did have legitimate reason to intrude. Those activities included human sacrifice, polygamy, bigamy, concubinage, incest, infanticide, parricide, advocation and promotion of immorality, etc.

Such acts, even if perpetrated in the name of religion, would be stopped by the government since, as the Court had explained, they were "subversive of good order" and were "overt acts against peace." However, the government was never to interfere with traditional religious practices outlined in "the Books of the Law and the Gospel" – whether public prayer, the use of the Scriptures, public acknowledgements of God, etc.

Therefore, if Jefferson's letter is to be used today, let its context be clearly given – as in previous years. Furthermore, earlier Courts had always viewed Jefferson's Danbury letter for just what it was: a personal, private letter to a specific group. There is probably no other instance in America's history where words spoken by a single individual in a private letter – words clearly divorced from their context – have become the sole authorization for a national policy. Finally, Jefferson's Danbury letter should never be invoked as a stand-alone document. A proper analysis of Jefferson's views must include his numerous other statements on the First Amendment.

For example, in addition to his other statements previously noted, Jefferson also declared that the "power to prescribe any religious exercise. . . . must rest with the States" (emphasis added). Nevertheless, the federal courts ignore this succinct declaration and choose rather to misuse his separation phrase to strike down scores of State laws which encourage or facilitate public religious expressions. Such rulings against State laws are a direct violation of the words and intent of the very one from whom the courts claim to derive their policy.

One further note should be made about the now infamous "separation" dogma. The Congressional Records from June 7 to September 25, 1789, record the months of discussions and debates of the ninety Founding Fathers who framed the First Amendment. Significantly, not only was Thomas Jefferson not one of those ninety who framed the First Amendment, but also, during those debates not one of those ninety Framers ever mentioned the phrase "separation of church and state." It seems logical that if this had been the intent for the First Amendment – as is so frequently asserted-then at least one of those ninety who framed the Amendment would have mentioned that phrase; none did.

In summary, the "separation" phrase so frequently invoked today was rarely mentioned by any of the Founders; and even Jefferson's explanation of his phrase is diametrically opposed to the manner in which courts apply it today. "Separation of church and state" currently means almost exactly the opposite of what it originally meant.

Endnotes
1. Letter of October 7, 1801, from Danbury (CT) Baptist Association to Thomas Jefferson, from the Thomas Jefferson Papers Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C. (Return)

2. Id. (Return)

3. The Jeffersonian Cyclopedia, John P. Foley, editor (New York: Funk & Wagnalls, 1900), p. 977; see also Documents of American History, Henry S. Cummager, editor (NY: Appleton-Century-Crofts, Inc., 1948), p. 179. (Return)

4. Annals of the Congress of the United States (Washington: Gales and Seaton, 1852, Eighth Congress, Second Session, p. 78, March 4, 1805; see also James D. Richardson, A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents, 1789-1897 (Published by Authority of Congress, 1899), Vol. I, p. 379, March 4, 1805. (Return)

5. Thomas Jefferson, Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington D. C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. I, p. 379, March 4, 1805. (Return)

6. Thomas Jefferson, Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies, From the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph, editor (Boston: Gray and Bowen, 1830), Vol. IV, pp. 103-104, to the Rev. Samuel Millar on January 23, 1808. (Return)

7. Jefferson, Writings, Vol. VIII, p. 112-113, to Noah Webster on December 4, 1790. (Return)

8. Jefferson, Writings, Vol. III, p. 441, to Benjamin Rush on September 23, 1800. (Return)

9. Jefferson, Writings, Vol. XVI, pp. 281-282, to the Danbury Baptist Association on January 1, 1802. (Return)

10. Richard Hooker, The Works of Richard Hooker (Oxford: University Press, 1845), Vol. I, p. 207. (Return)

11. Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia (Philadelphia: Matthew Carey, 1794), Query XVIII, p. 237. (Return)

12. Reynolds v. U. S., 98 U. S. 145, 164 (1878). (Return)

13. Reynolds at 163. (Return)
 
Perhaps I've missed a chunk of the conversation.

Of course culture is interwoven with religion (beliefs and ritual and imagery). But those things can change and the culture can still withstand.

Can the tapestry withstand the excising of the yellow thread woven throughout?
 
The Myth of the Separation of Church and State American s Founding Fathers Deists or Christians video by David Barton

27 of the 56 founding fathers had Christian seminary degrees!

No official government document by the founding fathers refers to separation of church and state

According to David Barton of Wallbuilders, Inc., 27 of our nation's 56 founding fathers had Christian seminary degrees! They certainly would have been aware of these directives spelled out in the Bible verses below about how to select leaders at all levels of government. Unfortunately the history revisionists that write our public school text books have left this important information out of what students are learning today. If you look at most web sites about the founding fathers, you'll also see that it's almost always omitted there as well. There is a deliberate effort on the part of secularists to keep this information from public school students.

Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place [such] over them, [to be] rulers of thousands, [and] rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
Exodus 18:21

And he set judges in the land throughout all the fenced cities of Judah, city by city, And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who [is] with you in the judgment. wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do [it]: for [there is] no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
2 Chronicles 19:5-7

Research by David Barton, founder of Wallbuilders, Inc. exposes the alleged separation of church and state for the myth that it really is. The words separation of church and state don't appear in any official government documents authored by the founding fathers. This concept and these particular words were invented by an ACLU attorney named Leo Pfeffer in 1947 in the Supreme Court case of Everson versus Board of Education of Ewing Township. That liberal supreme court imposed it on the nation by a 5 to 4 vote. The ACLU and other anti-Christian organizations and individuals have used it to harass Christians with ever since. It is also used by evolutionists to try to keep a theistic explanation of origins out of the public schools. Many young people today are not aware of the fact that this concept is an ACLU invention, and that it is the extreme opposite of what our founding fathers actually intended. In other words, there is virtually no constitutional support whatsoever for it. Let's examine two of the most common myths about the founding fathers that most public school students are being taught today because of the history revisionists.


Myth #1: Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists is the basis for separation of church and state

Some misguided people try to claim that this quote from Thomas Jefferson establishes the "separation of church and state" that we now have today:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church and State". 1
The first problem with that assertion is that this quote is not from an official government document. The second is that it was Jefferson's original intent that this meant that the church was to be protected from the government, not the reverse (which is the case today). For more information about this, see:
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=9


Myth #2: The founding fathers were "deists"

This is a common argument used by secular history revisionists that attempts to distract attention away from the fact that the majority of the founding fathers were committed Christians. For more information about why this is a myth, see this link:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=29

If you watch the video at the link above, fast forward to 20 minutes and 30 seconds into it. There you'll hear Mr. Barton explain that 27 of our nation's 56 founding fathers had Christian seminary degrees! That would hardly qualify them as deists. We're trying to track down a list of exactly who they were. Once we have the list we'll post them on this same page.

Resources that prove the founding fathers intended for this to be a Christian nation

David Barton, founder of Wallbuilders, Inc., gives many seminars each year on this topic. One of them that was given to Compass International, Inc. was videotaped. We have been given permission to video-stream the entire video on our web site (download it from the link at the top of this page). We believe you will be quite surprised by what Mr. Barton has uncovered about the true intentions of our founding fathers on this matter. The majority of the information in his seminars once appeared in public school history books. However, it has since been removed for political correctness reasons by history revisionists. Today, students receive a grossly distorted view of those who founded our country, and what their views actually were concerning the roles of church and state.

We are grateful to Compass International, Inc. for allowing us to video-stream David's video titled America's Founding Fathers: Deists or Christians? on our web site. This video makes reference to a few speeches and documents authored by our founding fathers. Here are links to a some of them:

The Mayflower Compact.
Founding father William Samuel Johnson's overtly Biblical public school graduation address.
Benjamin Franklin is widely regarded to be among the least religious of the founding fathers. However, his speech given to Congress on June 28, 1787 asking that Congress have a prayer every morning before conducting business was overtly religious in nature. The text of this speech can be viewed at the Library of Congress's web site at these links: Page 1, Page 2, Page 3.
The Library of Congress web site has a page titled Religion and the Congress of the Confederation, 1774-89. Among the documents listed are the first English language Bible (Aitken's Bible) that Congress officially sanctioned for use by American citizens on September 12, 1782.
The October 11, 1782 congressional proclamation that declared Thanksgiving Day a day the nation was to give thanks to God for a variety of blessings.
Daniel Webster, one of our founding fathers, emphasized the importance of Christian leaders and Christian principles in civil government.
If they meant for this to be a Christian nation, why isn't Jesus mentioned in the constitution?

The short answer is that it wasn't necessary to. The majority of the founding fathers and American's in general were Christians. As we have seen from the above link to the Mayflower Compact, the main reason this country was founded was so that those Christians could spread the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ. They viewed the constitution, Bill of Rights and all laws that were passed as a having come from Biblical principles, and that these documents were all subordinate to the Bible. They were well aware of the fact that God had given them and all of mankind very specific litmus tests in the Bible that they needed to apply to all government officials before putting them into positions of power. There wasn't a need to specifically restate these God given mandates because they were already addressed in the more authoritative Bible, and were common knowledge.

Conclusion

We encourage you to purchase your own copies of David's other videos (streaming video clips of each video are available on their site), books, CD's, audios, posters, pamphlets and tracts. They make excellent gifts for family members and friends. They are also valuable additions to your school or church library. Consider purchasing copies and donating them to your local public libraries as well.

While we are encouraged by the recent public outcry against the outlawing of the Pledge of Allegiance, it is only a temporary band-aid fix.

What really needs to be done is to get the erroneous 1947 Supreme Court decision that first imposed the phony separation of church and state on the country reversed. The documents and other evidence David Barton has uncovered gives us all the ammunition we need to win such a case if we will just have the will to do it. We also need to quit electing liberal judges and politicians who appoint them. We should also put a lot of pressure on obstructionist Democratic Senators who are preventing president Bush from putting common sense conservative judges into numerous vacant federal judge positions.


Questions

If you have questions about the church and state or founding fathers issues, please do not send them to us. We'd prefer you direct your questions to experts like those at David Barton's web site. They focus almost exclusively on the church and state/founding fathers issues and are better able to answer questions you may have. Their contact page is:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/contactus/index.htm


References

1. Jefferson, Writings, Vol. XVI, pp. 281-282, to the Danbury Baptist Association on January 1, 1802.
 
[
Oh, rubbish.

How many Roman Catholic clerics (priests, nuns, others) in Germany, in Italy, and in the occupied countries (Poland, France, Belgium, Holland, Norway, etc.) would have been rounded-up and killed in retaliation.for such an act by any such Pope?

Right. So it's okay the Pope let millions of Jews, Poles (who were Catholic) and other get killed because, hey, we need to look out for ourselves.

[
How many Germans and French and Poles and Belgians, etc., would have been without a spiritual anchor and how many of those in-need would no longer have had their parish churches to turn-to for help, after that round-up and slaughtering?

Clerics (priests, ministers, deacons, etc.) are, after all, only human, and may very well fail the Ultimate Litmus test by not speaking-out actively against a tyranny and aberration like Nazi-controlled Germany, but their actually-manifested passive resistance and underground resistance contributed their share to the overall resistance movement.

Naw, they were really pretty fucking worthless, which the Clergy usually is.


[
I don't blame Pius XII overly-much for not openly challenging those Nazi maniacs - there was far too much at stake.

Horseshit, Pius was all for the Nazis because he was more afraid the COmmunists would win and take his shit.
 
What "those people" do you mean? If you mean the people you listed in the post he responded to, he clearly said, "the worst thing these folks did was create music I don't care for". That would be my response, too.

And like he also said, "the radio has an on/off switch".

Roo's reading comprehension skills are very poor.
 
Perhaps I've missed a chunk of the conversation.

Of course culture is interwoven with religion (beliefs and ritual and imagery). But those things can change and the culture can still withstand.

Chesterton's Fence:

In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”

This paradox rests on the most elementary common sense. The gate or fence did not grow there. It was not set up by somnambulists who built it in their sleep. It is highly improbable that it was put there by escaped lunatics who were for some reason loose in the street. Some person had some reason for thinking it would be a good thing for somebody. And until we know what the reason was, we really cannot judge whether the reason was reasonable. It is extremely probable that we have overlooked some whole aspect of the question, if something set up by human beings like ourselves seems to be entirely meaningless and mysterious. There are reformers who get over this difficulty by assuming that all their fathers were fools; but if that be so, we can only say that folly appears to be a hereditary disease. But the truth is that nobody has any business to destroy a social institution until he has really seen it as an historical institution. If he knows how it arose, and what purposes it was supposed to serve, he may really be able to say that they were bad purposes, that they have since become bad purposes, or that they are purposes which are no longer served. But if he simply stares at the thing as a senseless monstrosity that has somehow sprung up in his path, it is he and not the traditionalist who is suffering from an illusion.​

I gave this post an "informative" rating in the truest sense of the word.

Of course someone had a reason to set up the fence. But perhaps the reformer sees what the traditionalist doesn't: the fence was built to keep him (and people like him) from going somewhere better.
 
I don't see it so much as a Christian thing, but we used to have scruples. That is what is lacking these days.
 
What "those people" do you mean? If you mean the people you listed in the post he responded to, he clearly said, "the worst thing these folks did was create music I don't care for". That would be my response, too.

And like he also said, "the radio has an on/off switch".

Roo's reading comprehension skills are very poor.

Projection Joe Bob :)

YOU either did not read, or did not understand what you read in the OP's "source".
 
"Miley Cyrus, Madonna,Jay-Z, Beyonce have replaced Christendom as avenues of finding "meaning" and "fulfillment"....pathways of "transcendence" and a "revelatory" sense of "personal identity".

You folks are suffering a contextual problem.
IF YOU or YOUR kids are deriving your "meaning" , or your "fulfillment"...your "pathways of transendence" and a "revelatory sense of your personal identities" As stated in the OP's Source you are quite fucked up.

His point is that pop culture has replaced Christendom as the place where people like you go to find these things...and that is sick.

I'm sorry, who is doing this again? I htink you are really confused here.

Those people are Corporate Manufactured and Pushed products. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't think anyone finds "meaning' in their music.

The thing for me, I don't find those things in Christianity, either. I see a lot of mean spirited stories written by Bronze Age savages who attributed every bad thing that happened to them to a magic sky fairy.
 
[

Projection Joe Bob :)

YOU either did not read, or did not understand what you read in the OP's "source".

Guy, you've been trying to sell a false premise all day.

To my knowledge, there is no "cult" of Jay-Z. I think you are a little confused.
 
[

Here's the thing, they did what they did BECAUSE in the Old Country the Monarchy had co-opted the Church and DECLARED it to be the "Official Church" of England.

It regulated what was taught.

THAT is the reason for our 1st Amendment protections.

No, they did it because they were scholars of the "Age of Reason" who looked at most of the bible as a load of fairy tales.

and they had the object lesson of 200+ years of Kings changing the "official" religion and leaving them out in the cold.

But here's the thing. The best mind of hte 18th century is still an illiterate savage compared to modern Americans. Yet you guys treat what their intent was like holy writ.

HOw about governing in the here and now?
 
Perhaps I've missed a chunk of the conversation.

Of course culture is interwoven with religion (beliefs and ritual and imagery). But those things can change and the culture can still withstand.

Chesterton's Fence:

In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”

This paradox rests on the most elementary common sense. The gate or fence did not grow there. It was not set up by somnambulists who built it in their sleep. It is highly improbable that it was put there by escaped lunatics who were for some reason loose in the street. Some person had some reason for thinking it would be a good thing for somebody. And until we know what the reason was, we really cannot judge whether the reason was reasonable. It is extremely probable that we have overlooked some whole aspect of the question, if something set up by human beings like ourselves seems to be entirely meaningless and mysterious. There are reformers who get over this difficulty by assuming that all their fathers were fools; but if that be so, we can only say that folly appears to be a hereditary disease. But the truth is that nobody has any business to destroy a social institution until he has really seen it as an historical institution. If he knows how it arose, and what purposes it was supposed to serve, he may really be able to say that they were bad purposes, that they have since become bad purposes, or that they are purposes which are no longer served. But if he simply stares at the thing as a senseless monstrosity that has somehow sprung up in his path, it is he and not the traditionalist who is suffering from an illusion.​

I gave this post an "informative" rating in the truest sense of the word.

Of course someone had a reason to set up the fence. But perhaps the reformer sees what the traditionalist doesn't: the fence was built to keep him (and people like him) from going somewhere better.

It is extremely rare to find a liberal reformer who doesn't think his "fathers were fools." In fact I can't think of one, but I'm trying to be generous and allow for some to exist somewhere.

Most reformers, be they Atheists (in which I include myself), Liberals, Libertarians take for granted the aspects of our culture that they like. They have no clue how those aspects came about and they believe that those aspects will remain intact no matter how many reforms they launch on the interconnected web of culture.

I've spent a lot of time in Africa and the Middle East. There is no way in hell that a libertarian society could function in Africa. For libertarianism to function a society needs a Christian-informed Western ethos. To eradicate Christian concepts from the West is going erode the base needed by Libertarians to keep their new society functioning.

Same principles in play for godless liberals. We tried to inject Liberalism into Iraq. How did that work out? No foundation, no liberalism.
 
"Miley Cyrus, Madonna,Jay-Z, Beyonce have replaced Christendom as avenues of finding "meaning" and "fulfillment"....pathways of "transcendence" and a "revelatory" sense of "personal identity".

You folks are suffering a contextual problem.
IF YOU or YOUR kids are deriving your "meaning" , or your "fulfillment"...your "pathways of transendence" and a "revelatory sense of your personal identities" As stated in the OP's Source you are quite fucked up.

His point is that pop culture has replaced Christendom as the place where people like you go to find these things...and that is sick.

I'm sorry, who is doing this again? I htink you are really confused here.

Those people are Corporate Manufactured and Pushed products. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't think anyone finds "meaning' in their music.

The thing for me, I don't find those things in Christianity, either. I see a lot of mean spirited stories written by Bronze Age savages who attributed every bad thing that happened to them to a magic sky fairy.

That explains it, you have not even read the OP.

You are dismissed.
 
[

Here's the thing, they did what they did BECAUSE in the Old Country the Monarchy had co-opted the Church and DECLARED it to be the "Official Church" of England.

It regulated what was taught.

THAT is the reason for our 1st Amendment protections.

No, they did it because they were scholars of the "Age of Reason" who looked at most of the bible as a load of fairy tales.

and they had the object lesson of 200+ years of Kings changing the "official" religion and leaving them out in the cold.

But here's the thing. The best mind of hte 18th century is still an illiterate savage compared to modern Americans. Yet you guys treat what their intent was like holy writ.

HOw about governing in the here and now?

Again you are dismissed Joe, you have nothing to add here.
 
[

Projection Joe Bob :)

YOU either did not read, or did not understand what you read in the OP's "source".

Guy, you've been trying to sell a false premise all day.

To my knowledge, there is no "cult" of Jay-Z. I think you are a little confused.

I feel sorry for you Joe, I really do.

Is it hard being alone ll the time?

Nobody could stand to be around you.
 
Perhaps I've missed a chunk of the conversation.

Of course culture is interwoven with religion (beliefs and ritual and imagery). But those things can change and the culture can still withstand.

Can the tapestry withstand the excising of the yellow thread woven throughout?

Is a culture really a tapestry?

Absolutely.

OK. A tapestry usually has one designer. Who is the one designer of our culture? Who is the artist that created Western Civilization?
 

Forum List

Back
Top