If We Erase The Christian Basis Of Governance, Then What Do We Unleash?

[JoeB131]

I'

We have past experiments where legislatures have tried to impose the will of man over reality, such as when the Indiana Legislature came close to passing a bill legislating a method to derive pi to a value of 3.2. Any engineer will tell you that if forced to use an imagined value for pi while building a bridge or an airplane, the product will be unstable. Man's will can't override reality. Disaster follows.
l."

A couple of points.

1) The bible says that the value of Pi is 3! (1 King 7:23)

2) The Indiana Pi bill came up in 1897, and got nowhere near passing.

New Math The Time Indiana Tried to Change Pi to 3.2 Mental Floss

 

[rdean]

If We Erase The Christian Basis Of Governance, Then What Do We Unleash?

Equal rights for women?

Freedom from religion?

Democracy?

 

[Antares]

Perhaps I've missed a chunk of the conversation.

Of course culture is interwoven with religion (beliefs and ritual and imagery). But those things can change and the culture can still withstand.

Can the tapestry withstand the excising of the yellow thread woven throughout?

Is a culture really a tapestry?

Absolutely.

OK. A tapestry usually has one designer. Who is the one designer of our culture? Who is the artist that created Western Civilization?

Too narrow.

tap·es·try
noun\ˈta-pə-strē\


: something made up of different things, people, colors, etc.

America itself is the designer.

 

[ricechickie]

Perhaps I've missed a chunk of the conversation.

Of course culture is interwoven with religion (beliefs and ritual and imagery). But those things can change and the culture can still withstand.

Can the tapestry withstand the excising of the yellow thread woven throughout?

Is a culture really a tapestry?

Absolutely.

OK. A tapestry usually has one designer. Who is the one designer of our culture? Who is the artist that created Western Civilization?

Too narrow.

tap·es·try
noun\ˈta-pə-strē\


: something made up of different things, people, colors, etc.

America itself is the designer.

Sorry, but I'm looking for the definition that incorporates Rikurzhen's yellow thread.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Perhaps I've missed a chunk of the conversation.

Of course culture is interwoven with religion (beliefs and ritual and imagery). But those things can change and the culture can still withstand.

Can the tapestry withstand the excising of the yellow thread woven throughout?

Is a culture really a tapestry?

Sure it is. I have a better example to use. A spandrel:

A spandrel, less often spandril or splaundrel, is the space between two arches or between an arch and a rectangular enclosure.
​

A sprandel is not designed to serve a purpose, it appears as a consequence of other features. Now go and knock out the useless sprandrels in the photo below. They don't serve a purpose, right, they weren't put there on purpose, so knock them out and lets see what happens to the rest of the structure.

 

[Antares]

Can the tapestry withstand the excising of the yellow thread woven throughout?

Is a culture really a tapestry?

Absolutely.

OK. A tapestry usually has one designer. Who is the one designer of our culture? Who is the artist that created Western Civilization?

Too narrow.

tap·es·try
noun\ˈta-pə-strē\


: something made up of different things, people, colors, etc.

America itself is the designer.

Sorry, but I'm looking for the definition that incorporates Rikurzhen's yellow thread.

Again, too narrow.

 

[ricechickie]

Perhaps I've missed a chunk of the conversation.

Of course culture is interwoven with religion (beliefs and ritual and imagery). But those things can change and the culture can still withstand.

Can the tapestry withstand the excising of the yellow thread woven throughout?

Is a culture really a tapestry?

Sure it is. I have a better example to use. A spandrel:

A spandrel, less often spandril or splaundrel, is the space between two arches or between an arch and a rectangular enclosure.
​

A sprandel is not designed to serve a purpose, it appears as a consequence of other features. Now go an knock out the useless sprandrels in the photo below. They don't serve a purpose, right, they weren't put there on purpose, so knock them out and lets see what happens to the rest of the structure.

All of your examples are of something that was designed by one person, even if it was built by many.

All of your examples are of something that was designed and built with a specific purpose in mind.

So, let me ask you this: Who designed Western culture? And what specific purpose was it intended to serve? To decorate? To shelter?

 

[ricechickie]

Is a culture really a tapestry?

Absolutely.

OK. A tapestry usually has one designer. Who is the one designer of our culture? Who is the artist that created Western Civilization?

Too narrow.

tap·es·try
noun\ˈta-pə-strē\


: something made up of different things, people, colors, etc.

America itself is the designer.

Sorry, but I'm looking for the definition that incorporates Rikurzhen's yellow thread.

Again, too narrow.

Take it up with Rik. He created the analogy.

 

[Antares]

Again, what is the Christian basis of governance? What exactly does this mean?????

Do you honestly believe that American-European culture developed in a manner independent of Christianity?

If you have a beautiful tapestry hanging on your wall but you really hate the yellow threads woven throughout and you start cutting out and pulling out the yellow threads, what do you imagine happens to the remainder of your tapestry?

That's a bad analogy. Saying that our government is "Christian-based" is like saying that that tapestry is "yellow-based."

Fair point. You're misunderstanding my point though. The discussion here is evolving. You've decontextualized my response and leaped back to the OP.

Look at what I wrote. Can you separate out European culture from Christianity? They're interwoven, just like that yellow thread is woven throughout the tapestry.

Expand how you see this

Could be red, could be blue...the color isn't the point.....the point is the weaving of the tapestry itself....and it's complete interdependence on allof the OTHER threads that make up the whole.

Correct me if I'm wrong Riz

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

When they build the Vatican they painted School of Athens mural. It showed Plato and Aristotle among other greats indicating that the church was the inheritor and transmitter of Western Culture. At very least church was very very conservative in that it challenged power of secular govt and thereby limited the damage it could do. This is why the West succeeded and the East failed. It is Christianity that asks us to love honor and obey our spouse. Without the accumulated conservative wisdom of the Christian past we have only deadly liberalism: Hitler Stalin and Mao or just do it or just try it.

 

[Antares]

When they build the Vatican they painted School of Athens mural. It showed Plato and Aristotle among other greats indicating that the church was the inheritor and transmitter of Western Culture. At very least church was very very conservative in that it challenged power of secular govt and thereby limited the damage it could do. This is why the West succeeded and the East failed. It is Christianity that asks us to love honor and obey our spouse. Without the accumulated conservative wisdom of the Christian past we have only deadly liberalism: Hitler Stalin and Mao or just do it or just try it.

Better put up your shields man, the attacks are headed your way.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

When they build the Vatican Raphael painted School of Athens in the Apostolic Palace . It showed Plato and Aristotle among other greats indicating that the church was the conscious inheritor and transmitter of Western Culture. At very least the church was very very conservative in that it challenged the power of secular govt and thereby limited the damage it could do. This is why the West succeeded and the East failed. It is Christianity that asks us to love honor and obey our spouse. Without the accumulated conservative wisdom of the Christian past we have only deadly ignorant liberalism: Hitler Stalin and Mao or just do it or just try it.

Better put up your shields man, the attacks are headed your way.

liberals lack the IQ to understand let alone attack. Just watch.

 

[Rikurzhen]

All of your examples are of something that was designed by one person, even if it was built by many.

All of your examples are of something that was designed and built with a specific purpose in mind.

So, let me ask you this: Who designed Western culture? And what specific purpose was it intended to serve? To decorate? To shelter?

My spandrel example addresses your question. A spandrel is not designed, it appears.

To bring this into context, the Catholic Church issue edicts prohibiting marriage with people who were related to the 6th cousin level. This was a revolution created by conscious choice. The spandrel which arose is the changed relationship between an individual and society for now family/tribe/clan networks and one's place within those networks was essentially erased from society. No one designed THAT. Absent the Church's edict, it would not have arisen independently and we don't see this cultural feature in lands with strong clan networks.

You're focusing on designers but they're not essential - a culture arises from evolution and from keeping attributes which work. Christianity was essential to the cultures which grew in the West. Look around the world - there have been many cultural/religious experiments. Where else has an Enlightenment been born?

 

[Rikurzhen]

Again, what is the Christian basis of governance? What exactly does this mean?????

Do you honestly believe that American-European culture developed in a manner independent of Christianity?

If you have a beautiful tapestry hanging on your wall but you really hate the yellow threads woven throughout and you start cutting out and pulling out the yellow threads, what do you imagine happens to the remainder of your tapestry?

That's a bad analogy. Saying that our government is "Christian-based" is like saying that that tapestry is "yellow-based."

Fair point. You're misunderstanding my point though. The discussion here is evolving. You've decontextualized my response and leaped back to the OP.

Look at what I wrote. Can you separate out European culture from Christianity? They're interwoven, just like that yellow thread is woven throughout the tapestry.

Expand how you see this

Could be red, could be blue...the color isn't the point.....the point is the weaving of the tapestry itself....and it's complete interdependence on allof the OTHER threads that make up the whole.

Correct me if I'm wrong Riz

If you pull that yellow thread you destroy the whole tapestry. Which card pulled from the structure will not affect the structure and which pulled card will destroy the structure?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Now, yeah, they'd have killed that Pope the next day. But at least he did the right thing.

dear, getting yourself and your followers killed is not necessarily the right thing in
the long term.

 

[Care4all]

I would no more Mormons or Baptists or Muslims running things politically than I would atheists or agnostics.

Government is deliberately faith free, folks: believe or not, it does not matter at the court house.

Government and the LAW itself are indeed faith free and you are right, they SHOULD be.

But the "principles" of the Law are indeed based in Christianity and you know this very well.

Now that, I can accept....since most of the founders grew up as Christians or in Christian communities...

but Enlightenment is what many founders believed in, and this movement in no way shape or form, was a thing that supported religion of any kind, ruling the government or in the pockets of government....or a theocracy rule. They believed in the separation of church and State as far as governance....

BUT NOT as far as wiping out the mention of God, in everything the government did....as there are some atheist movements to do such and are claiming.... the founders were fine with religion in the Public Square....they just did not want Religions as being a part of government rule, imo.

Here's the thing, they did what they did BECAUSE in the Old Country the Monarchy had co-opted the Church and DECLARED it to be the "Official Church" of England.

It regulated what was taught.

THAT is the reason for our 1st Amendment protections.

that's part of the reason, but not the only reason...

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

THAT is the reason for our 1st Amendment protections.

that's part of the reason, but not the only reason...[/QUOTE]

Our Founders sadly had no idea how religion had shaped their moral, cultural, spiritual and psychological life. They took for granted what had always been there as if it were intrinsic. If they could see the depravity of modern liberal America the Constitution would have been very different.

 

[Kondor3]

...Right. So it's okay the Pope let millions of Jews, Poles (who were Catholic) and other get killed because, hey, we need to look out for ourselves...

Of course it's not. But I also can't blame the Pope for not choosing martyrdom or suicide for both himself and much of his fellow clergy, given that large-scale killings of Jews did not get underway until the 1942-1943 timeframe and that such mass killings were only rumors for the longest time and given that all of Europe was under the Nazi boot heel.

...Naw, they were really pretty fucking worthless, which the Clergy usually is...

Your well-known bias against such folk serves as the grain of salt to take along with those words.

...Horseshit, Pius was all for the Nazis because he was more afraid the COmmunists would win and take his shit.

Disagree.

 

[MaxGrit]

Perhaps I've missed a chunk of the conversation.

Of course culture is interwoven with religion (beliefs and ritual and imagery). But those things can change and the culture can still withstand.

Can the tapestry withstand the excising of the yellow thread woven throughout?

Is a culture really a tapestry?

Sure it is. I have a better example to use. A spandrel:

A spandrel, less often spandril or splaundrel, is the space between two arches or between an arch and a rectangular enclosure.
​

A sprandel is not designed to serve a purpose, it appears as a consequence of other features. Now go an knock out the useless sprandrels in the photo below. They don't serve a purpose, right, they weren't put there on purpose, so knock them out and lets see what happens to the rest of the structure.

All of your examples are of something that was designed by one person, even if it was built by many.

All of your examples are of something that was designed and built with a specific purpose in mind.

So, let me ask you this: Who designed Western culture? And what specific purpose was it intended to serve? To decorate? To shelter?

God's will and providence necessitate the formation of Western culture and everything else.

 

[MaxGrit]

Lets put it this way. If we forget that our Creator gave us inalienable rights and reject the Creator, we're saying we don't have any inalienable rights.

At this point we have no rights at all, except those rights given to us by the State.

The State determines rights it wants us to have. If the State can gives, the State can takes.

Which means we have no inalienable right to life, liberty, and private property (pursuit of happiness).

Since rights are granted by the State, the State can do anything it wants if it can do it.

This is how millions people are murdered by their own countries. These countries had by one way or another REJECTED the concept of God given inalienable rights.

Without God, evil perversions abounds. Millions of people were murdered by their own State in recent history. We see it as murders, but those State sees it as justified population reduction by killing. Justified genocide, by the State, for its own purpose, by its whim. Ex. Nazi Germany (occult), Soviet Union (atheism), Red China (atheism), etc.