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Ask the Civil Rights Act that protects race, religion, country of origin, etc. You're asking why we have PA laws. I'm sure you can find the answer if you try really, really hard.
If the Civil Rights Act protects religion, then forcing someone to act in defiance of their religion is breaking the law, is it not?
Mark
No. It protects the religious from discrimination. I am forced, by federal law to serve crazy eyed Christians in all 50 states. They only have to serve me in a few. Change 'em all or STFU.
Hi Seawytch
trying to come up with the equivalent for you
of what it is like to hire wedding services of people that forces them to attend
and PARTICIPATE in a gay wedding if they don't believe in that.
How about something like this:
A. what if you do not agree with Christianity,
but you are asked to write and deliver a speech praising Christianity
and pointing out the good practices, history and benefits of the outreach.
Do you have the right to turn down that business/job
because you feel someone else is more suited to do that, and you don't want it.
B. If someone was going to rent your land to kill cows and chickens as a demonstration
of the process, to make a revenge statement against PETA to be mean,
or film a porn movie where people are acting out rape, and you
don't agree with those activities. Do you have the right to turn
down business you prefer not to have on your property.
C. if someone wants to rent your private facility to
give a speech denying the Holocaust and defending their
beliefs they are the ones harassed by the jews, not the other way,
do you have the right to turn down that business and say no thanks
i'd rather not be associated with having supported this level of free speech.
those are just examples I threw together
can anyone else think of some that a normal person
might refuse and nobody would fault them for saying no thanks I'll pass!
Hi Strawman! If the service is not provided by the business, it cannot be required to be.
OK so what if the people did not agree to provide gay wedding services.
Where can you show me they ever agreed to do that type of service?
If you are going to say it's the same, then
sewing a man's suit is still sewing
sewing a woman's suit is still sewing
are you going to sue because someone wouldn't sew for one gender
but would sew for another?
NO YOU WOULDN'T BECAUSE IT DOESNT FIT THE AGENDA
Seawytch I think it is clear that these lawsuits arise because of a
political agenda concerning gay rights specifically, just like
when an atheist sues over a cross it isn't about the principle
it's about the specific opposition with Christianity.
That is what is motivating all this.
Christians have rejected homosexuality in the past,
so the "backlash" is now they are being targeted and sued.
Are you really going to say it isn't because of backlash?
THAT'S the real issue of why this is coming up.
And the REAL problem with Marriage is that it is
underneath the State AT ALL. that is already a conflict
waiting to happen.
Before gay marriage came up, people AGREED to
mix church and state with marriage.
Only when disagreements over religion came up
did people realize they DON'T support the state
endorsing this or that.
Seawytch if people were REALLY about nondiscriminating
and NOT imposing, we'd take marriage completely out of the state
and keep it free and neutral.
Both sides are trying to defend and push THEIR views of
marriage through the state. Both sides are wrong
to impose and to abuse the govt to do so.
If it's wrong for one side,
it's wrong for the other.
Please be fair and recognize the
agenda on BOTH SIDES not just one.
Feel free to do so....that is true civil disobedience......................except for the whining martyr part.
As far as civil rights and the law....sure. As is being of a gender. As is being of a religion. As of being handicapped. As of being of a certain ethnic/nationality. You cannot take away the civil rights of any law-abiding, tax-paying citizen just because you don't like that particular "group".Really?
Semantics is all you've got?
Beliefs with no actions are worthless.
And beliefs don't justify actions when they break the law. It's not semantics, it's a fundemental issue that you guys don't seem to get.
If I believed that murder was not only ok, but required for my religion, would that give me the right to kill random people on the street?
So because you are gay it takes that removes a businesses right to deny services.
So because you are black it takes that removes a businesses right to deny services.
(try that one out)
You want to hold forth that being gay is like being black?
If the Civil Rights Act protects religion, then forcing someone to act in defiance of their religion is breaking the law, is it not?
Mark
No. It protects the religious from discrimination. I am forced, by federal law to serve crazy eyed Christians in all 50 states. They only have to serve me in a few. Change 'em all or STFU.
Hi Seawytch
trying to come up with the equivalent for you
of what it is like to hire wedding services of people that forces them to attend
and PARTICIPATE in a gay wedding if they don't believe in that.
How about something like this:
A. what if you do not agree with Christianity,
but you are asked to write and deliver a speech praising Christianity
and pointing out the good practices, history and benefits of the outreach.
Do you have the right to turn down that business/job
because you feel someone else is more suited to do that, and you don't want it.
B. If someone was going to rent your land to kill cows and chickens as a demonstration
of the process, to make a revenge statement against PETA to be mean,
or film a porn movie where people are acting out rape, and you
don't agree with those activities. Do you have the right to turn
down business you prefer not to have on your property.
C. if someone wants to rent your private facility to
give a speech denying the Holocaust and defending their
beliefs they are the ones harassed by the jews, not the other way,
do you have the right to turn down that business and say no thanks
i'd rather not be associated with having supported this level of free speech.
those are just examples I threw together
can anyone else think of some that a normal person
might refuse and nobody would fault them for saying no thanks I'll pass!
Hi Strawman! If the service is not provided by the business, it cannot be required to be.
OK so what if the people did not agree to provide gay wedding services.
Where can you show me they ever agreed to do that type of service?
If you are going to say it's the same, then
sewing a man's suit is still sewing
sewing a woman's suit is still sewing
are you going to sue because someone wouldn't sew for one gender
but would sew for another?
NO YOU WOULDN'T BECAUSE IT DOESNT FIT THE AGENDA
Seawytch I think it is clear that these lawsuits arise because of a
political agenda concerning gay rights specifically, just like
when an atheist sues over a cross it isn't about the principle
it's about the specific opposition with Christianity.
That is what is motivating all this.
Christians have rejected homosexuality in the past,
so the "backlash" is now they are being targeted and sued.
Are you really going to say it isn't because of backlash?
THAT'S the real issue of why this is coming up.
And the REAL problem with Marriage is that it is
underneath the State AT ALL. that is already a conflict
waiting to happen.
Before gay marriage came up, people AGREED to
mix church and state with marriage.
Only when disagreements over religion came up
did people realize they DON'T support the state
endorsing this or that.
Seawytch if people were REALLY about nondiscriminating
and NOT imposing, we'd take marriage completely out of the state
and keep it free and neutral.
Both sides are trying to defend and push THEIR views of
marriage through the state. Both sides are wrong
to impose and to abuse the govt to do so.
If it's wrong for one side,
it's wrong for the other.
Please be fair and recognize the
agenda on BOTH SIDES not just one.
It is very simple...if it is a service you provide, you must provide it regardless of the race, religion, nation of origin, etc (and in same places sexual orientation) of the customer.
The business was not asked to perform a service they do not already provide.
Either get rid of all PA Laws or quit whining because in some places they ALSO protect gays.
Again, declaring things does not make them true.
And if you think they're just "my" laws, and not yours - see what happens when you break them.
Laws which violate the United States Constitution are illegitimate - I recognize no authority in them. They are your laws, backed only by the barrel of a gun, not by any sort of justifiable moral code or tradition of law.
You seek to strip all of civil rights to force others to acknowledge your desires, you will be resisted.
Comparing being gay to being drunk......talking about imposing beliefs throught the barrel of a gun.
Tell us again who is overplaying their hand.....
No.If my religion made me believe I should not pay taxes that go to war....that's one thing. If I take the ACTION of not paying my taxes, do you think the government care that I did it because of my beliefs?Where is it that freedom of religion allows one's business to discriminate against fellow law-abiding, tax-paying citizens?
the same freedom of religion that allows the state to penalize
people or businesses for their beliefs, as in this case!
No one is being penalized for their beliefs.
They are being penalized for their actions.
Really?
Semantics is all you've got?
Beliefs with no actions are worthless.
Are you a Native American?
.
Where is it that freedom of religion allows one's business to discriminate against fellow law-abiding, tax-paying citizens?
the same freedom of religion that allows the state to penalize
people or businesses for their beliefs, as in this case!
No one is being penalized for their beliefs.
They are being penalized for their actions.
Really?
Semantics is all you've got?
Beliefs with no actions are worthless.
And beliefs don't justify actions when they break the law. It's not semantics, it's a fundemental issue that you guys don't seem to get.
If I believed that murder was not only ok, but required for my religion, would that give me the right to kill random people on the street?
So because you are gay it takes that removes a businesses right to deny services.
How has this conversation changed between us in the last few years. Oh, that's right....the MAJORITY of states now have legalized gay marriage. That is the direction we are going. That's you I see way back there, coughing in the dust of history.Comparing being gay to being drunk......talking about imposing beliefs throught the barrel of a gun.
Tell us again who is overplaying their hand.....
You are.
And you know it. What you fear most is that free people will simply say "no."
I support your right to live as you please - but you will not extend the same to others - you seek to force through laws and the guns that back them, all to acquiesce to your desires.
You forcing people to violate their moral code to accommodate your bigotry is no different than a church using the law to force you into conversion therapy. Your actions are every bit as reprehensible.
the same freedom of religion that allows the state to penalize
people or businesses for their beliefs, as in this case!
No one is being penalized for their beliefs.
They are being penalized for their actions.
Really?
Semantics is all you've got?
Beliefs with no actions are worthless.
And beliefs don't justify actions when they break the law. It's not semantics, it's a fundemental issue that you guys don't seem to get.
If I believed that murder was not only ok, but required for my religion, would that give me the right to kill random people on the street?
So because you are gay it takes that removes a businesses right to deny services.
PA laws only apply to gays in some places. If you deny service because they are gay in one of those places, they do not have that "right".
No. It protects the religious from discrimination. I am forced, by federal law to serve crazy eyed Christians in all 50 states. They only have to serve me in a few. Change 'em all or STFU.
Hi Seawytch
trying to come up with the equivalent for you
of what it is like to hire wedding services of people that forces them to attend
and PARTICIPATE in a gay wedding if they don't believe in that.
How about something like this:
A. what if you do not agree with Christianity,
but you are asked to write and deliver a speech praising Christianity
and pointing out the good practices, history and benefits of the outreach.
Do you have the right to turn down that business/job
because you feel someone else is more suited to do that, and you don't want it.
B. If someone was going to rent your land to kill cows and chickens as a demonstration
of the process, to make a revenge statement against PETA to be mean,
or film a porn movie where people are acting out rape, and you
don't agree with those activities. Do you have the right to turn
down business you prefer not to have on your property.
C. if someone wants to rent your private facility to
give a speech denying the Holocaust and defending their
beliefs they are the ones harassed by the jews, not the other way,
do you have the right to turn down that business and say no thanks
i'd rather not be associated with having supported this level of free speech.
those are just examples I threw together
can anyone else think of some that a normal person
might refuse and nobody would fault them for saying no thanks I'll pass!
Hi Strawman! If the service is not provided by the business, it cannot be required to be.
OK so what if the people did not agree to provide gay wedding services.
Where can you show me they ever agreed to do that type of service?
If you are going to say it's the same, then
sewing a man's suit is still sewing
sewing a woman's suit is still sewing
are you going to sue because someone wouldn't sew for one gender
but would sew for another?
NO YOU WOULDN'T BECAUSE IT DOESNT FIT THE AGENDA
Seawytch I think it is clear that these lawsuits arise because of a
political agenda concerning gay rights specifically, just like
when an atheist sues over a cross it isn't about the principle
it's about the specific opposition with Christianity.
That is what is motivating all this.
Christians have rejected homosexuality in the past,
so the "backlash" is now they are being targeted and sued.
Are you really going to say it isn't because of backlash?
THAT'S the real issue of why this is coming up.
And the REAL problem with Marriage is that it is
underneath the State AT ALL. that is already a conflict
waiting to happen.
Before gay marriage came up, people AGREED to
mix church and state with marriage.
Only when disagreements over religion came up
did people realize they DON'T support the state
endorsing this or that.
Seawytch if people were REALLY about nondiscriminating
and NOT imposing, we'd take marriage completely out of the state
and keep it free and neutral.
Both sides are trying to defend and push THEIR views of
marriage through the state. Both sides are wrong
to impose and to abuse the govt to do so.
If it's wrong for one side,
it's wrong for the other.
Please be fair and recognize the
agenda on BOTH SIDES not just one.
It is very simple...if it is a service you provide, you must provide it regardless of the race, religion, nation of origin, etc (and in same places sexual orientation) of the customer.
The business was not asked to perform a service they do not already provide.
Either get rid of all PA Laws or quit whining because in some places they ALSO protect gays.
It doesn't mention Sexual Choices.
Discrimination in Public Accommodations - FindLaw
No one is being penalized for their beliefs.
They are being penalized for their actions.
Really?
Semantics is all you've got?
Beliefs with no actions are worthless.
And beliefs don't justify actions when they break the law. It's not semantics, it's a fundemental issue that you guys don't seem to get.
If I believed that murder was not only ok, but required for my religion, would that give me the right to kill random people on the street?
So because you are gay it takes that removes a businesses right to deny services.
PA laws only apply to gays in some places. If you deny service because they are gay in one of those places, they do not have that "right".
Why, because YOU demand special treatment?
Ah yes...the "you homos need to be grateful that we let you live and don't go all violent on you like the Iranians do" angle.If this "in-your-face" crap continues the day will come when the Iranian outlook on the subject will seem mild compared to what will become ordinary in The U.S.
I guess we've been told, eh?
No one is being penalized for their beliefs.
They are being penalized for their actions.
Really?
Semantics is all you've got?
Beliefs with no actions are worthless.
And beliefs don't justify actions when they break the law. It's not semantics, it's a fundemental issue that you guys don't seem to get.
If I believed that murder was not only ok, but required for my religion, would that give me the right to kill random people on the street?
So because you are gay it takes that removes a businesses right to deny services.
PA laws only apply to gays in some places. If you deny service because they are gay in one of those places, they do not have that "right".
Why, because YOU demand special treatment?
It's Bad. I am agnostic, and I think this "gay" stuff is pushing the constitutional envelope big time. Speaking of dark and twisted, that must have been a Freudian slip, because catering (pun intended) to homosexuality isn't exactly aspiring to the better angels of our mercies, so to speak. We should be able to exclude people sometimes... Valid real issues like politics, race or sex discrimination, covered by the Constitution, I understand. But Sexual perversions, that's pushing it. Homosexuality hasn't yet been disproven to be a sexual dysfunction, so, it's kind of questionable why we SHOULD be so equitable and fair with a class of people who's' redeeming value seems to be that they have enough $ to buy off reason and get mommy and daddy's lawyers to make this an issue to begin with.NY Farm That Refused To Host Lesbian Wedding Fined $13,000
Liberty Ridge Farm's owners, citing constitutional rights to free speech and religious freedom, have appealed the August ruling by the Division of Human Rights that they violated state anti-discrimination law.
Their attorney said Robert and Cynthia Gifford paid the $10,000 state civil penalty and $1,500 each to Melisa and Jennie McCarthy, whose 2013 wedding they declined to host. The Giffords testified last year that in their Christian beliefs, marriage is between a man and a woman, and the ceremonies are held at their home, a private space where their own rights should be determinate.
Good!
We hurt them in the pocketbook and we shame them in the media.
There is a dark and twisted version of Christianity being practiced in the U.S. They throw love and tolerance over for fear and ignorance, clinging to one archaic hebrew tribal law.
Umm. A property owner unwilling to violate their religious beliefs is not a violation of anyone's civil rights.As far as civil rights and the law....sure. As is being of a gender. As is being of a religion. As of being handicapped. As of being of a certain ethnic/nationality. You cannot take away the civil rights of any law-abiding, tax-paying citizen just because you don't like that particular "group".Really?
Semantics is all you've got?
Beliefs with no actions are worthless.
And beliefs don't justify actions when they break the law. It's not semantics, it's a fundemental issue that you guys don't seem to get.
If I believed that murder was not only ok, but required for my religion, would that give me the right to kill random people on the street?
So because you are gay it takes that removes a businesses right to deny services.
So because you are black it takes that removes a businesses right to deny services.
(try that one out)
You want to hold forth that being gay is like being black?
Shame is on you, because you are a abnormal preverted freakNY Farm That Refused To Host Lesbian Wedding Fined $13,000
Liberty Ridge Farm's owners, citing constitutional rights to free speech and religious freedom, have appealed the August ruling by the Division of Human Rights that they violated state anti-discrimination law.
Their attorney said Robert and Cynthia Gifford paid the $10,000 state civil penalty and $1,500 each to Melisa and Jennie McCarthy, whose 2013 wedding they declined to host. The Giffords testified last year that in their Christian beliefs, marriage is between a man and a woman, and the ceremonies are held at their home, a private space where their own rights should be determinate.
Good!
We hurt them in the pocketbook and we shame them in the media.
There is a dark and twisted version of Christianity being practiced in the U.S. They throw love and tolerance over for fear and ignorance, clinging to one archaic hebrew tribal law.
Do you think it makes your arguments more coherent to paint yourself as some ridiculous martyr?
I think you vastly overestimate the level of support for your "side" on this issue.
