Im ready to curb gun murders. Lets work together

[2aguy]

Nothing but tired ass clichés.
You statist assholes don't want to fix shit. That is fucking OBVIOUS.
You clicked on this thread and left logic in the hallway
"banning guns and regulations will stop suicide and illegal guns DDDDEEEEEERRRRR"

LMFAO.

When my kid was 14, he argued that way. "But you didn't convince me why I shouldn't play video games 14 hours a day! You just keep repeating the same old arguments!"

I'm pleased to say he's grown out of that.

then how will gun regulations curb suicide by gun and gang violence?

Gang guns don't just magically appear. Some are stolen, and some are bought through private transactions. Background checks for private transactions would cut down on those.

I honestly don't care about suicide. It's not murder.

By the way, you're framing the argument completely away from mass murderers, in which a sick or evil person inflicts death on several innocents in an short amount of time. I don't think there's as many innocent victims in gang violence. Generally it's bad people shooting at other bad people. Not that I want it to continue, but I think there are other victims more worth protecting.

Wrong...they use straw buyers for their guns or they steal them....each way defeats background checks....anyone who can pass the current, federally mandated background check for gun stores will pass the check for a private sale.....

Background checks don't do anything but create criminals out of normal, law abiding people...

 

[jc456]

How do we ban illegal guns?

I imagine illegal guns are already banned. Legislate an effective ban of handguns and military style semi-automatics, then buy them back, then confiscate them whenever they're seen.

So seeing as gang members are the number two cause of high gun death, you want to ban guns form law abiding citizens. So, in essence, you aren't doing a goddamn thing about the actual problem?
Loon.

The only way to curb illegal guns is to curb the number of guns in circulation, period. Legal guns get rerouted to criminals. Less legal guns, less guns get rerouted.

So you don't think we are getting illegal guns from overseas?
Is there a solution to curb gun circulation without infringing on rights of law abiding people?

I don't think so, TN. However, in a complex society, "rights" come with responsibilities. When our country has the highest gun homicide rate of all civilized nations, perhaps it is time for everyone to take some responsibility for the innocents that are shot every day.

we do? let's see that statistics. I'd say syria has many gun homicides. Don't you think?

 

[2aguy]

Here we go, comparing two developed nations. With handguns and military style semi-automatics effectively banned, (stronger controls and regulations) and a firearm licence requiring a gun safety course, firearm ownership in NZ is about 20% of that of the US and firearm homicide rate is about 5% of that of the US. Yes, yes, the US is unique, no other counties' experience is applicable, it's all the blacks' fault. Heard it all before.

Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year

Country..Total.Homicides..Suicides..Unintent..Undetermine..Guns 100 hab

US.........10.54....3.43...........6.69.........0.18.........0.08...............112.6

NZ..........1.07......0.18...........0.84.........0.05.........0.00.................22.6

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia

It doesn't match .....New Zealand has a different culture from us.....they are less violent and prone to murder than our gangs are...and that is the driver, not guns..since New Zealand has more guns than Australia, and a lower crime rate than Australia....two countries that you can actually compare....

 

[2aguy]

More frivolous gun laws will not save a single person, and firearm registration is absolutely insane. Fact

That is hardly a germane response to a suggestion to effectively ban handguns and military style semi-automatics. Effectively ban means severely curtail private sales, buy back, then confiscate.

No reason to....also, they are protected as a Right....

 

[ricechickie]

Nothing but tired ass clichés.
You statist assholes don't want to fix shit. That is fucking OBVIOUS.
You clicked on this thread and left logic in the hallway
"banning guns and regulations will stop suicide and illegal guns DDDDEEEEEERRRRR"

LMFAO.

When my kid was 14, he argued that way. "But you didn't convince me why I shouldn't play video games 14 hours a day! You just keep repeating the same old arguments!"

I'm pleased to say he's grown out of that.

then how will gun regulations curb suicide by gun and gang violence?

Gang guns don't just magically appear. Some are stolen, and some are bought through private transactions. Background checks for private transactions would cut down on those.

I honestly don't care about suicide. It's not murder.

By the way, you're framing the argument completely away from mass murderers, in which a sick or evil person inflicts death on several innocents in an short amount of time. I don't think there's as many innocent victims in gang violence. Generally it's bad people shooting at other bad people. Not that I want it to continue, but I think there are other victims more worth protecting.

Wrong...they use straw buyers for their guns or they steal them....each way defeats background checks....anyone who can pass the current, federally mandated background check for gun stores will pass the check for a private sale.....

Background checks don't do anything but create criminals out of normal, law abiding people...

That's why registration is important. If a straw buyer buys a gun and hands it over to a criminal, crazy person, etc, and it's used in a crime, the straw buyer should be prosecuted.

There's always going to be people working to get around the system. That doesn't mean to abandon laws altogether.

 

[Flash]

[Q

Some vets do have mental health issues. I just lost a friend recently who murdered by a vet with a registered gun.

The regs that Trump were directed towards vets and a stupid government bureaucrat was going to be the one to decide who is affected and who isn't. The same bureaucrats that let veterans die while waiting for treatment and then destroy the records so that they will get a higher bonus.

I don't trust the government to decide if I am entitled to my Constitutional rights (especially one that says "shall not be infringed") and I sure as hell don't trust a government led by Moon Bats. They will never do the right thing.

 

[Flash]

[Q


I know many stupid potheads who are better people than you as they don't go around spewing hate speech about people who are different than them.

you are correct. A stupid Moon Bat pothead is different than me.

 

[2aguy]

We are not other nations, and we have much bigger fish to fry... frivolous gun laws are absolutely unnecessary and firearm registration is absolutely unacceptable....

So another one happy to accept the US firearms homicide rate as the price of easy access to firearms. Fair enough.

No....that is a homicide rate because we don't lock up repeat gun offenders and take gun crime seriously...because democrats don't want to impact their democrat voting districts.....

Access to firearms allows U.S. citizens to stop violent criminal attack 1,500,000 times a year....vs. 9,616 gun murders in 2015...and of those gun murders 70-80% of the victims are actually criminals.....

That means there were about 1,923 actually innocent people killed in gun murder here in the states...in a country of over 320 million people......do you understand that number?

And of those 1,923....many of them are friends and family of criminals who get shot in the crossfire between their criminal buddies.....

So our gun crime rate went down 75% as more Americans own and carry guns...do you understand that?

Our gun murder rate went down 49% as more Americans own and carry guns..do you understand that?

Our violent crime rate went down 72% as more Americans own and carry guns..do you understand that?

Gun violence in British cities, like london....20 years after the gun ban...went up 10% last year.....do you understand that?

 

[2aguy]

Lets get to the bottom of the pandemic of suicides and gang violence with guns.
I am ready to solve this issue!
We obviously cant stop suicides. We could take their gun, but it will still happen. But we could take the gun, and they can use a knife and slit their throat. Or throw themselves in front of a bus. Maybe that's better? So there goes the number one cause of gun murder.
Gang violence. Most of them use illegal guns. So how do we curb that?
I don't want to hear no bullshit about background checks on private transactions or limited magazines or the same worn out clichés the gun grabbers use on a daily basis. Id like to work on ACTUAL solutions instead of reducing liberties for the majority of the country.
Lets work and ACTUALLY figure out a solution!
Whos with me?

We don't have to reinvent the wheel. Many other countries have their gun problem under control. Would we have to give up some of our privacy to achieve this goal, as they did in Japan? Yes, we would but Japan also has a zero percent murder rate. (The Japan lesson: Can America learn from the country that has almost zero gun deaths?)
But people give up their privacy willingly on Facebook and other internet sites every single day. So it wouldn't be a major shift.

Sorry...but that author lied to you.....he wrote that piece originally for the Atlantic..which he points out in the WaPo piece...and he lied in it....he cites David Kopel, and his research into Japanese gun crime....and lies about the conclusion that Kopel posits......how do I know this?

I have the original work by Kopel where he states...Japanese gun laws did not reduce gun violence....japanese people control did......here...take a look at the original Atlantic article from that author...and below it what Kopel actually said...

Notice in the article he quotes directly from his ATlantic piece....and he even cites David Kopel and credits him for what he says about Japan...and then lies about what Kopel said about Japan...

Japan: Gun Control and People Control

And they lie about it...he does not say what the Atlantic article suggests he says.....watch this...

Quoted from your link to the Atlantic article..

How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths

The only guns that Japanese citizens can legally buy and use are shotguns and air rifles, and it’s not easy to do. The process is detailed in David Kopel’s landmark study on Japanese gun control, published in the 1993 Asia Pacific Law Review, still cited as current. (Kopel, no left-wing loony, is a member of the National Rifle Association and once wrote in National Review that looser gun control laws could have stopped Adolf Hitler.)

My link is his actual work...

What does he actually say about Japan's gun control laws...keeping in mind they use his work to say it is Japanese gun control that keeps gun crime low....from my link....

Japan: Gun Control and People Control

Japan's low crime rate has almost nothing to do with gun control, and everything to do with people control. Americans, used to their own traditions of freedom, would not accept Japan's system of people controls and gun controls.

Notice how they didn't cite him using that quote?

This is the part of his piece they don't qoute...how the Japanese actually keep all crime, not just gun crime low...

Robbery in Japan is about as rare as murder. Japan's annual robbery rate is 1.8 per 100,000 inhabitants; America's is 205.4. Do the gun banners have the argument won when they point to these statistics? No, they don't. A realistic examination of Japanese culture leads to the conclusion that gun control has little, if anything, to do with Japan's low crime rates. Japan's lack of crime is more the result of the very extensive powers of the Japanese police, and the distinctive relation of the Japanese citizenry to authority. Further, none of the reasons which have made gun control succeed in Japan (in terms of disarming citizens) exist in the U.S.

The Japanese criminal justice system bears more heavily on a suspect than any other system in an industrial democratic nation. One American found this out when he was arrested in Okinawa for possessing marijuana: he was interrogated for days without an attorney, and signed a confession written in Japanese that he could not read. He met his lawyer for the first time at his trial, which took 30 minutes.

Unlike in the United States, where the Miranda rule limits coercive police interrogation techniques, Japanese police and prosecutors may detain a suspect indefinitely until he confesses. (Technically, detentions are only allowed for three days, followed by ten day extensions approved by a judge, but defense attorneys rarely oppose the extension request, for fear of offending the prosecutor.) Bail is denied if it would interfere with interrogation.

Even after interrogation is completed, pretrial detention may continue on a variety of pretexts, such as preventing the defendant from destroying evidence. Criminal defense lawyers are the only people allowed to visit a detained suspect, and those meetings are strictly limited.

Partly as a result of these coercive practices, and partly as a result of the Japanese sense of shame, the confession rate is 95%.

For those few defendants who dare to go to trial, there is no jury. Since judges almost always defer to the prosecutors' judgment, the trial conviction rate for violent crime is 99.5%.
Of those convicted, 98% receive jail time.

In short, once a Japanese suspect is apprehended, the power of the prosecutor makes it very likely the suspect will go to jail. And the power of the policeman makes it quite likely that a criminal will be apprehended.

The police routinely ask "suspicious" characters to show what is in their purse or sack. In effect, the police can search almost anyone, almost anytime, because courts only rarely exclude evidence seized by the police -- even if the police acted illegally.

The most important element of police power, though, is not authority to search, but authority in the community. Like school teachers, Japanese policemen rate high in public esteem, especially in the countryside. Community leaders and role models, the police are trained in calligraphy and Haiku composition. In police per capita, Japan far outranks all other major democracies.

15,000 koban "police boxes" are located throughout the cities. Citizens go to the 24-hour-a-day boxes not only for street directions, but to complain about day-to-day problems, such as noisy neighbors, or to ask advice on how to raise children. Some of the policemen and their families live in the boxes. Police box officers clear 74.6% of all criminal cases cleared. Police box officers also spend time teaching neighborhood youth judo or calligraphy. The officers even hand- write their own newspapers, with information about crime and accidents, "stories about good deeds by children, and opinions of
residents."

The police box system contrasts sharply with the practice in America. Here, most departments adopt a policy of "stranger policing." To prevent corruption, police are frequently rotated from one neighborhood to another. But as federal judge Charles Silberman writes, "the cure is worse than the disease, for officers develop no sense of identification with their beats, hence no emotional stake in improving the quality of life there."

Thus, the U.S. citizenry does not develop a supportive relationship with the police. One poll showed that 60% of police officers believe "it is difficult to persuade people to give patrolmen the information they need."

The Japanese police do not spend all their time in the koban boxes. As the Japanese government puts it: "Home visit is one of the most important duties of officers assigned to police boxes." Making annual visits to each home in their beat, officers keep track of who lives where, and which family member to contact in case of emergency. The police also check on all gun licensees, to make sure no gun has been stolen or misused, that the gun is securely stored, and that the licensees are emotionally stable.

Gun banners might rejoice at a society where the police keep such a sharp eye on citizens' guns. But the price is that the police keep an eye on everything.

Policemen are apt to tell people reading sexually-oriented magazines to read something more worthwhile. Japan's major official year-end police report includes statistics like "Background and Motives for Girls' Sexual Misconduct." In 1985, the police determined that 37.4% of the girls had been seduced, and the rest had had sex "voluntarily." For the volunteers, 19.6% acted "out of curiosity", while for 18.1%, the motive was "liked particular boy." The year-end police report also includes sections on labor demands, and on anti-nuclear or anti-military demonstrations.

Do you notice the bias in the article in how they quote the expert they quote...how his work completely contradicts their point about gun control...?

 

[2aguy]

So seeing as gang members are the number two cause of high gun death, you want to ban guns form law abiding citizens. So, in essence, you aren't doing a goddamn thing about the actual problem?
Loon.

The only way to curb illegal guns is to curb the number of guns in circulation, period. Legal guns get rerouted to criminals. Less legal guns, less guns get rerouted.

So you don't think we are getting illegal guns from overseas?
Is there a solution to curb gun circulation without infringing on rights of law abiding people?

I don't think so, TN. However, in a complex society, "rights" come with responsibilities. When our country has the highest gun homicide rate of all civilized nations, perhaps it is time for everyone to take some responsibility for the innocents that are shot every day.

Frivolous gun laws have never worked and will never work, people that think they do are stupid people...

I'm not talking "frivolous." If I didn't know it was completely unrealistic to expect, I'd be advocating for the Australia solution. I'm talking full out get-rid-of-the-fucking-things, nothing frivolous about it. However, thanks to our violent and gun loving cowboys, frivolous is all we can hope for.

Australia gun laws have failed.....you are wrong about it....here is a 3 part story on Australian gun control failure....

Gun city: Young, dumb and armed

The notion that a military-grade weapon could be in the hands of local criminals is shocking, but police have already seized at least five machine guns and assault rifles in the past 18 months. The AK-47 was not among them.

Only a fortnight ago, law enforcement authorities announced they were hunting another seven assault rifles recently smuggled into the country. Weapons from the shipment have been used in armed robberies and drive-by shootings.

These are just a handful of the thousands of illicit guns fuelling a wave of violent crime in the world’s most liveable city.

----

Despite Australia’s strict gun control regime, criminals are now better armed than at any time since then-Prime Minister John Howard introduced a nationwide firearm buyback scheme in response to the 1996 Port Arthur massacre.

Shootings have become almost a weekly occurrence, with more than 125 people, mostly young men, wounded in the past five year

-----------

While the body count was higher during Melbourne’s ‘Underbelly War’ (1999-2005), more people have been seriously maimed in the recent spate of shootings and reprisals.

Crimes associated with firearm possession have also more than doubled, driven by the easy availability of handguns, semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and, increasingly, machine guns, that are smuggled into the country or stolen from licensed owners.

-------------

These weapons have been used in dozens of recent drive-by shootings of homes and businesses, as well as targeted and random attacks in parks, shopping centres and roads.

“They’re young, dumb and armed,” said one former underworld associate, who survived a shooting attempt in the western suburbs several years ago.

“It used to be that if you were involved in something bad you might have to worry about [being shot]. Now people get shot over nothing - unprovoked.”

------------

Gun crime soars
In this series, Fairfax Media looks at Melbourne’s gun problem and the new breed of criminals behind the escalating violence.

The investigation has found:

• There have been at least 99 shootings in the past 20 months - more than one incident a week since January 2015
• Known criminals were caught with firearms 755 times last year, compared to 143 times in 2011
• The epicentre of the problem is a triangle between Coolaroo, Campbellfield and Glenroy in the north-west, with Cranbourne, Narre Warren and Dandenong in the south-east close behind
• Criminals are using gunshot wounds to the arms and legs as warnings to pay debts
• Assault rifles and handguns are being smuggled into Australia via shipments of electronics and metal parts

In response to the violence, it can be revealed the state government is planning to introduce new criminal offences for drive-by shootings, manufacturing of firearms with new technologies such as 3D printers, and more police powers to keep weapons out of the hands of known criminals.
============
The second part of the series....


Gun city: Gunslingers of the North West


========================
'Thousands' of illegal guns tipped to be handed over in firearms amnesty

Asked roughly how many he expected to be handed in, Mr Keenan said: "Look I certainly think the number will be in the thousands."

The Australian Crime Commission estimated in 2012 there were at least 250,000 illegal guns in Australia. But a Senate report noted last year it was impossible to estimate how many illicit weapons are out there.

But....military weapons?

And despite Australia's strict border controls, the smuggling of high-powered military-style firearms is also a growing problem.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Lets get to the bottom of the pandemic of suicides and gang violence with guns.

First of all, I think ending gun suicides is likely to do nothing but increase the rates of other forms of suicide because I suspect few are the folks who are committed to killing themselves, but only if they use a gun to do it. One can likely, IMO, act to reduce the quantity of people who want to end their own lives, and one can sometimes intervene to make a would-be suicide attempt unsuccessful.

As for gang violence with guns, the "with guns" part of that clause casts the matter as though gang violence without guns is somehow acceptable. It is not. What needs to happen is that our culture transform such that the calculus that inspires individuals to join a gang and unlawfully (violently or not) pursue its and one's own objectives is vastly more often and likely to indicate to all but abjectly deranged individuals that other routes to obtaining satisfaction are better for them to pursue than is the (violent) gang route.

Sure as I've said that, one has to realise that achieving the noted ends will not happen overnight, or even in a decade for what I've advocated is cultural change, a change in the way our citizenry view others, themselves and their respective places in the community that is the U.S. If one insists on a "quick fix," well, I don't have a solution proposal for that, for though I can think of at least one, I don't, for a variety of reasons, think it's implementable.

 

[2aguy]

How about we ban Chicago, DC, LA, Memphis and Detroit area?
That might help with the gang problem.

If you want to ease gang violence you have to ease the cause of gang culture. Stop generation poverty, stop the oppression of minority communities, raise wages, lower costs of education etc. etc. You can not address gang violence without addressing the causing factors.

So discriminating economic policies for blacks isn't enough? What else do they need? I damn sure wont wipe their ass after a big dump!

discriminating economic policies for blacks? Lol.... like what exactly?

I love when white men think equality is the same thing as white oppression. Gives me butterflies in my tummy.

AA? Special scholarships just for being black. All kinds of govt sponsored shit just for being black. Why act so coy?
I love it when white people pretend to understand what black people need. You leftists have been preaching about it for decades with nothing to show for it. Try something new

You understand all of those things were necessary to start leveling the playing field right? You understand that before those laws african americans were discriminated against to the point that their community was unable to progress at all. You understand that discrimination is wrong, right? So if US colleges aren't taking african americans, there needs to be legislation to reverse the negative affect.

no..they were racism, and should never have been started...you don't end racism by changing who is being discriminated against or helped based on the color of their skin...you simply end it.....against everyone...

 

[2aguy]

enforcing it is the problem

With handguns and military style semi-automatics effectively banned, practically they can be confiscated any time they're seen. Which of course means major restrictions are placed on their sales.

Except for the natural right to self defense and the 2nd Amendment....and it isn't working in Australia, Britain, France or Belgium...or Europe...

Evidence?

Australia....

Gun city: Young, dumb and armed

The notion that a military-grade weapon could be in the hands of local criminals is shocking, but police have already seized at least five machine guns and assault rifles in the past 18 months. The AK-47 was not among them.

Only a fortnight ago, law enforcement authorities announced they were hunting another seven assault rifles recently smuggled into the country. Weapons from the shipment have been used in armed robberies and drive-by shootings.

These are just a handful of the thousands of illicit guns fuelling a wave of violent crime in the world’s most liveable city.

----

Despite Australia’s strict gun control regime, criminals are now better armed than at any time since then-Prime Minister John Howard introduced a nationwide firearm buyback scheme in response to the 1996 Port Arthur massacre.

Shootings have become almost a weekly occurrence, with more than 125 people, mostly young men, wounded in the past five year

-----------

While the body count was higher during Melbourne’s ‘Underbelly War’ (1999-2005), more people have been seriously maimed in the recent spate of shootings and reprisals.

Crimes associated with firearm possession have also more than doubled, driven by the easy availability of handguns, semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and, increasingly, machine guns, that are smuggled into the country or stolen from licensed owners.

-------------

These weapons have been used in dozens of recent drive-by shootings of homes and businesses, as well as targeted and random attacks in parks, shopping centres and roads.

“They’re young, dumb and armed,” said one former underworld associate, who survived a shooting attempt in the western suburbs several years ago.

“It used to be that if you were involved in something bad you might have to worry about [being shot]. Now people get shot over nothing - unprovoked.”

------------

Gun crime soars
In this series, Fairfax Media looks at Melbourne’s gun problem and the new breed of criminals behind the escalating violence.

The investigation has found:

• There have been at least 99 shootings in the past 20 months - more than one incident a week since January 2015
• Known criminals were caught with firearms 755 times last year, compared to 143 times in 2011
• The epicentre of the problem is a triangle between Coolaroo, Campbellfield and Glenroy in the north-west, with Cranbourne, Narre Warren and Dandenong in the south-east close behind
• Criminals are using gunshot wounds to the arms and legs as warnings to pay debts
• Assault rifles and handguns are being smuggled into Australia via shipments of electronics and metal parts

In response to the violence, it can be revealed the state government is planning to introduce new criminal offences for drive-by shootings, manufacturing of firearms with new technologies such as 3D printers, and more police powers to keep weapons out of the hands of known criminals.
============
The second part of the series....
Gun city: Gunslingers of the North West


========================
'Thousands' of illegal guns tipped to be handed over in firearms amnesty

Asked roughly how many he expected to be handed in, Mr Keenan said: "Look I certainly think the number will be in the thousands."

The Australian Crime Commission estimated in 2012 there were at least 250,000 illegal guns in Australia. But a Senate report noted last year it was impossible to estimate how many illicit weapons are out there.

But....military weapons?

And despite Australia's strict border controls, the smuggling of high-powered military-style firearms is also a growing problem.

enforcing it is the problem

With handguns and military style semi-automatics effectively banned, practically they can be confiscated any time they're seen. Which of course means major restrictions are placed on their sales.

Except for the natural right to self defense and the 2nd Amendment....and it isn't working in Australia, Britain, France or Belgium...or Europe...

Evidence?

Britain....

Homicides in England and Wales up 14%

The police-recorded crime figures include a 9% rise in knife crime and a 4% rise in gun crime, which are thought to reflect a rise in gang violence largely in London and Manchester.

The rise in gun crime is the first recorded for eight years and includes a 10% rise in London.


Rising number of guns being smuggled into UK, Metropolitan police say

More guns are being seized in cities across Britain as the number of firearms being smuggled into the country increases, Britain’s most senior police officer has said.

Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, the Metropolitan police commissioner, told a hearing at London’s City Hall that a rise in gun crime in the capital was being put down to an increase in the number of weapons coming into the country.

The Met seized a “worrying” record number of weapons in 2015, including semiautomatic guns, Hogan-Howe said.

“We’ve seized more firearms than ever before,” he said. “In the previous year [2015] we’ve seized 714 guns – that’s around two per day. In a city this size, that’s a worrying number. This is an increase on previous years. Some of them are semiautomatic weapons, too.

“If you look around the big cities of the country, they are seeing a similar profile. Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool – they are seeing big rises as well.”

America could only hope to have those kinds of murder rates.

Yes, rates are increasing for those countries, but I don't know if you can make a case that gun control isn't working unless you go back to the rates before regulation, and compare.

And here it is.....comparing before and after the gun ban..notice how the rates went up for other crimes...but the murder rate with guns didn't change....which was the whole point for the ban...and it didn't do anything...

Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

For an example of homicide rates before and after a ban, take the case of the handgun ban in England and Wales in January 1997 (source here see Table 1.01 and the column marked “Offences currently recorded as homicide per million population,” UPDATED numbers available here). After the ban, clearly homicide rates bounce around over time, but there is only one year (2010) where the homicide rate is lower than it was in 1996. The immediate effect was about a 50 percent increase in homicide rates. Firearm homicide rate had almost doubled between 1996 and 2002 (see here p. 11). The homicide and firearm homicide rates only began falling when there was a large increase in the number of police officers during 2003 and 2004. Despite the hugeincrease in the number of police, the murder rate still remained slightly higher than the immediate pre-ban rate.


The stats diagram...link to the image...

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

 

[2aguy]

What does that have to do with us? You think we are alike enough to HONESTLY compare it?
We have over 330M here, we have a native urban culture, so many differences to list.
It isn't that black and white.
Its like people refer to socialist countries as having all this free shit and they do fine. Then you look at suicide rates and violent crime.. Its not black and white, its a Crayola 64 crayon pack.

Oh, it's black and white alright. No guns, no shootings. But it won't happen like that here because too many of you apparently feel it shouldn't, and this is a democracy. Although it is entirely defeating to have this discussion on USMB, with its conservative majority, I think a good part of the country may feel differently about it though. We'll see.

Its not black and white when you compare it to other countries. There are variables. Basic math..
Of course if there was no guns, there would be no shootings. Probably a lot of sword fighting and fertilizer bombing, though. Lol
But this country has second amendment rights. They don't. Honestly, its completely moot, anyways.

Everyone remembers the McDonalds sword mass murders of the 1500s.

There was a time when there were no guns...genius....and what was life like back then?

The strong raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved the weak...and the weak had to just accept it......swords, bows and axes allowed the strong to enslave everyone who was weaker....

Guns allowed civilization to be created...where peace became common rather than non existent...the weak could fight off the strong and more numerous attackers...

You want us to go back to that violence Look up the mongols, the Zulu, the Samurai, the middle ages.......peasants controlled and brutalized by the strong...until guns came along....and that ended...

Education and liberty allowed civilization to be created. Guns were just an enforcement tool.

And still are.

I have no interest in banning guns. I want to regulate the people using them.

And how do you do that..since criminals don't do background checks and legally don't have to register their guns....?

 

[2aguy]

There are lots and lots of ideas on how to reduce gun violence, some good some not so good.

But the fact is that every suggestion to reduce gun violence threatens the profits of the gun manufacturers.

So, given today's politics, there is no way any solution to gun violence will be instituted.

No...that isn't true....the solution is to lock up criminals who use guns to commit crimes...and to lock up felons who buy, own or carry guns...for 30 years....

That has no effect on gun profits...since the legal gun market has been going gang busters for years now.....

 

[2aguy]

Long prison sentences just kick the can down the road. Strict prison sentences do not act as a deterrent. Criminals are impulsive; they act first and think later, if at all.

And then they are institutionalised after a long sentence. Good if you're a private prison investor. Bad for everyone else.

I know one guy who told me that prison was good for him--he finally got a long enough bid in prison to be sent to the prison with a really intense, effective drug/alcohol rehab program. It allowed him to get sober and STAY that way when he was released, by having a highly structured release program that was heavy on supervision, a half-way house for a mandatory amount of time and then some financial assistance and help with job searching that tapered off over time so he could find a decent job and get back on his feet while still being sober. He'd been clean for years, had a family, was doing well. All thanks to prison. That program has been cut to the quick--the after care program after release is totally gone. He was lucky he was incarcerated when he was. The majority of people I've known who were in prison came out "clean" and then were back in the life within a year, at most. Employers don't want to hire them, a lot of places (including any federally funded housing) won't rent to them--it's impossible to get back on your feet even though you've served your time. I'm not saying people shouldn't pay a price for assault, repeated drunk driving, serious crimes.

Lets get to the bottom of the pandemic of suicides and gang violence with guns.
I am ready to solve this issue!
We obviously cant stop suicides. We could take their gun, but it will still happen. But we could take the gun, and they can use a knife and slit their throat. Or throw themselves in front of a bus. Maybe that's better? So there goes the number one cause of gun murder.
Gang violence. Most of them use illegal guns. So how do we curb that?
I don't want to hear no bullshit about background checks on private transactions or limited magazines or the same worn out clichés the gun grabbers use on a daily basis. Id like to work on ACTUAL solutions instead of reducing liberties for the majority of the country.
Lets work and ACTUALLY figure out a solution!
Whos with me?

The last two times I've seen in depth discussions about curbing illegal guns, research and law enforcement ALL agree that gun registration is part of the answer so the gun can be traced and the owner who released it into the illegal market can be held accountable. Of course, combating gangs by stopping the cartels from entering the country is a good first step. Combating the MARKET for drugs is harder and something the Republicans have been extremely reluctant to spend money on. Investing in programs to keep kids busy and productive and OUT of gangs at age 12 or whatever, and finding ways to influence massive amounts of economic growth into cities with gang problems is another way. When selling drugs is the best paying job in the neighborhood, it's an impossible mission.

Gun registration is not part of the solution.....

Haynes v. United States Supreme court ruling states that felons are not required by law to register their illegal guns......

Gun registration is only desired by anti gunners because it removes a step in the proces of banning guns...it does nothing to stop gun crime or mass shootings.

The only solution...long prison sentences.

Long prison sentences just kick the can down the road. Strict prison sentences do not act as a deterrent. Criminals are impulsive; they act first and think later, if at all.

but it would still be a good solution, short term. And not infringe on innocent peoples rights.

We already imprison a much higher percent of our population than China or Russia, those bastions of authoritarian government. Our system doesn't "reform" prisoners or "correct" them. It is a holding pattern only, putting off the day when they will be released and offend again. It's expensive feeding and housing all those people and it doesn't buy us much in the long run. I'm not saying prison is not necessary, but there have to be better ways to use our pennies.

It doesn't have to reform violent criminals..it just has to keep them away from innocent people.....30 year sentences for actual gun crimes achieves that...

 

[2aguy]

Guns should be bonded!

I know that this would mean that only wealthy people could own guns, but if your poor and you think it's a good idea to spend your money on a gun, you're exactly the type of person that should not own a gun.

And that is dumb. The Rich, and criminals would have guns.....that has never worked out...just ask the Germans, the Mexicans across our border and every other country where the people have been disarmed.

 

[2aguy]

Lets get to the bottom of the pandemic of suicides and gang violence with guns.
I am ready to solve this issue!
We obviously cant stop suicides. We could take their gun, but it will still happen. But we could take the gun, and they can use a knife and slit their throat. Or throw themselves in front of a bus. Maybe that's better? So there goes the number one cause of gun murder.
Gang violence. Most of them use illegal guns. So how do we curb that?
I don't want to hear no bullshit about background checks on private transactions or limited magazines or the same worn out clichés the gun grabbers use on a daily basis. Id like to work on ACTUAL solutions instead of reducing liberties for the majority of the country.
Lets work and ACTUALLY figure out a solution!
Whos with me?

Just on suicides, the wait period before purchasing a gun was designed in hopes of affecting that. Men are most likely to use a gun in a suicide attempt, and the decision to go through with it, is often done on an impulse. The wait period might help with that without significantly reducing liberties.

No..it won't...Japan, china and south korea have absolute gun controls.....and higher suicide rates than we do...as does France and other European countries with strict gun control laws....suicide does not depend on the tool...

 

[2aguy]

Lets work and ACTUALLY figure out a solution!
Whos with me?

This guy, who confiscated all non-Nazi owned guns...

And he did it by using the gun registration lists created in the 1920s when Germans believed that it made sense to register their guns with the government...after all....what was the government going to do to them?

 

[2aguy]

Lets get to the bottom of the pandemic of suicides and gang violence with guns.
I am ready to solve this issue!
We obviously cant stop suicides. We could take their gun, but it will still happen. But we could take the gun, and they can use a knife and slit their throat. Or throw themselves in front of a bus. Maybe that's better? So there goes the number one cause of gun murder.
Gang violence. Most of them use illegal guns. So how do we curb that?
I don't want to hear no bullshit about background checks on private transactions or limited magazines or the same worn out clichés the gun grabbers use on a daily basis. Id like to work on ACTUAL solutions instead of reducing liberties for the majority of the country.
Lets work and ACTUALLY figure out a solution!
Whos with me?

The last two times I've seen in depth discussions about curbing illegal guns, research and law enforcement ALL agree that gun registration is part of the answer so the gun can be traced and the owner who released it into the illegal market can be held accountable. Of course, combating gangs by stopping the cartels from entering the country is a good first step. Combating the MARKET for drugs is harder and something the Republicans have been extremely reluctant to spend money on. Investing in programs to keep kids busy and productive and OUT of gangs at age 12 or whatever, and finding ways to influence massive amounts of economic growth into cities with gang problems is another way. When selling drugs is the best paying job in the neighborhood, it's an impossible mission.

Gun registration is not part of the solution.....

Haynes v. United States Supreme court ruling states that felons are not required by law to register their illegal guns......

Gun registration is only desired by anti gunners because it removes a step in the proces of banning guns...it does nothing to stop gun crime or mass shootings.

The only solution...long prison sentences.

Long prison sentences just kick the can down the road. Strict prison sentences do not act as a deterrent. Criminals are impulsive; they act first and think later, if at all.

but it would still be a good solution, short term. And not infringe on innocent peoples rights.

I am not even sure it would be a decent short term... While we are locking them up more are growing up. My countr

Another point. Before making more "gun laws" enforce the ones we have, and deal with mental illness, which is rampant on the streets. Those things are going to be 1000x more effective than another law.

So you think that donnies EO giving the mentally ill the ability to arm themselves is dangerous?

Not what it did...and you could ask the ACLU since they were pushing him to sign it...