Influencing the Election

[SavannahMann]

Okay.... So the latest trope from the liberal left, like dogs with a bone, is this ongoing complaint that Russia "influenced our election" and caused Hillary to lose. This crap has been going on ever since the election and it just continues to be perpetuated on blogs and message boards. If you try and confront this allegation directly, they will never say that Russia changed vote totals or tampered with the actual results in any way, because there is absolutely NO evidence that ever happened. Still, that is what they continue to try to IMPLY happened. I suppose it's designed to appeal to the really stupid people out there who will ASSUME this from the constant bombarding of rhetoric.

AGAIN.... There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that anyone tampered with votes, vote totals, voter rolls, or registrations. NONE... NADDA... ZIP! Aside from the typical isolated incidents of fraudulent votes being cast (mostly by democrats), there is no evidence that any funny business went on with regard to the election.

Now.... INFLUENCE.... what does that mean? Because, in all honesty, MANY things influence EVERY election! The weather can be an influence. Rumors can be an influence. Endorsements are certainly an influence. Hints of scandals and/or corruption can be an influence. Just the general demeanor of the candidates can be an influence. Hillary passing out at the 9/11 memorial had an influence.... Donald Trump's candid "locker room" conversation had an influence. So what is the BIG DEAL with regard to this supposed "influence" the Russians had? Nothing, other than it was the Russians.

But the Russians aren't the only people who attempt to influence our elections. The Mexican president attempted to influence the election. ISIS attempted to influence the election. And we certainly aren't saints when it comes to influencing elections in other countries. Obama directly attempted to influence Israel's election as well as the Brexit vote.

So why is the left continuing the make such a big deal out of the Russian's influencing the election? Because what they REALLY want to promote is the false idea that Russia somehow switched Trump votes to Hillary votes and that's how she lost. They will never admit that's what they're up to but it's the only thing that makes rational sense. They are counting on dumb people to assume that Russians breached security of the voting system in some way and changed votes.

Now let's go back to exactly HOW the Russians influenced the election... They supposedly released hacked emails from the DNC. This is not good... we don't want Russians hacking our political party's email servers... that's precisely why so many people had a problem with what Hillary Clinton was doing with the private unsecured servers handling national security information. But the fact remains, it was the information released that had the influence, not the hacking.

So you would have no problem with getting rid of the 4th amendment and making illegal searches permissible and the evidence obtained allowable in a trial.

Some might say you are mixing apples with oranges. I'd say you were mixing apples with horse apples.

I say you'd change your tune if someone hacked every bit of personal information you have on any computer anywhere and showed it to the world.

The Fourth Amendment does not say that I can't be burglarized. It says that I will be secure against Government Intrusion. Not any other Government, my own. Other Government action, or actions of individuals is not covered by the Fourth.

Fourth Amendment

Now, when someone steals your wife's purse, they have robbed her, not violated the Fourth Amendment. When someone steals your wallet. They have robbed you, not violated the Fourth Amendment. When the FBI sets up Stingray to bogart your information off your phone, that is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. When the NSA copies your email as it is passing by, that is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. When your phone calls are intercepted as part of a bulk collection effort, again, that is a violation of the Fourth Amendment.

I'd feel exactly the same, in fact, I do feel exactly the same. You see, I understand what the Fourth Amendment is about.

Now, your ignorance has been eradicated. Because I posted a link up there to help you understand. In that link it explains that private intrusions, the aforementioned burglary and robbery situations, are exempted from protection of the Fourth Amendment.

Why was none of this brought up when the recording of Trump's "Grab them by the Pu$$y" recording released? Where was the outrage about Trumps right to be secure from wiretapping or eavesdropping? No outrage there, the Left ran around like kids who had won the big prize at the Carnival cheering and hooting and screaming see he hates women. Not one of the left to this day has waxed poetic about the eavesdropping and dishonorable effort to influence the election.

So don't give me that shit like suddenly you care about where information comes from. The folks on the left demanded that Russia release the GOP's emails to make it fair.

Unlike Dan Rather, there is no complaint that the information is made up or manufactured. The people in high places within the DNC and Clinton Campaign really wrote that crap.

The outrage is that the truth was told. The outrage is that it isn't fair that the people know the truth. That is what Obama is pissed about. Hacking the election is a lie. The only thing hacked was the lies. Instead of taking the opportunity to create a new wind in the DNC where honesty and integrity rule, the party under the leadership of Obama are lashing out like petulant children screaming it's unfair.

But let's get back to the Fourth Amendment shall we? Let's say I burglarize a house. Inside that house, I find a bunch of DVD's and grab them. Later after examining the Jewlery I found and counting the cash I look at the DVD's. On the DVD's I find horrific examples of Child Pornography. I am a criminal, but I'm not a Child Molester. I wipe the DVD's of fingerprints, and put them in the mail from a busy downtown post office.

The police get the package, look at it, and go out and arrest the baddie. No violation of the Fourth Amendment has taken place. They did not invade the house to get the evidence without a warrant. They did not go and seize the information. The Fourth Amendment does not protect you, me, or anyone from the acts of a Private Citizen.

Now, we can amend the Fourth Amendment to argue that you are protected by the Constitution from anyone taking your stuff ever. I think it's unenforceable but I'm willing to discuss it.

So your asinine comment is shown to be worse than the usual bullshit put out. The complaints of the violation of privacy are bullshit. The acts of a foreign government are bullshit when you consider we interfere and try to influence every damned election around the globe. We got a taste of the dirty tricks we have been playing all over the world for more than a century. You just don't like that it was your party that got it's ass handed to it. Lashing out at the messenger is stupid and counterproductive and actually hurts the DNC. You could be taking the opportunity to learn and strive to be better. Instead you're going to pout and rant and throw a tantrum.

There is an old saying. It is better to be thought of as a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[Boss]

During the campaign 99% of the Trump supporters on this forum certainly THOUGHT the hacked emails could and would influence the election.

They couldn't shut up about it.

I've not said they DIDN'T influence the election. I am saying LOTS and LOTS of things influence EVERY election! That's what elections are all about! There is nothing illegal or unscrupulous about INFLUENCING an election. The fucking WEATHER can influence an election!

Hacking private emails? Sure... That's wrong! We should all stand together against ANY foreign or domestic agent who is hacking emails of ANY American, especially those in government. But what (if anything) influenced THIS election was not hacking.... it was the INFORMATION released.

 

[Boss]

The Fourth Amendment does not say that I can't be burglarized.

So THAT is what the idiot is yammering this nonsense about?

 

[NightFox]

I'm not talking about "our emails" , I'm talking about the internal emails that slither through the sewers inside the Republican and Democratic Parties, how else do you figure that the American Public is going to get at the truth about the goings on within these two Criminal Enterprises, the media?

I don't know how we're supposed to get the scoop but no, I don't want their emails hacked either. The first and foremost reason off the top of my head (other than basic right to privacy) is national security. I don't want some foreign hacker to obtain information they can use to blackmail public officials with, and that's exactly what will happen.

That's the price we pay however the only hope for the common folk to regain the upper hand on the elitists that have been royally screwing us is for the public to get access to the behind the scenes information regarding what is really going on, the Media has failed at their responsibility so alternative means are all that is open to us. Information is power and I want elected officials and the cadre of assholes surrounding them to be so afraid that they'll be exposed by those alternative means that they won't even THINK about stepping out of line, let alone writing it down or talking in smoke filled rooms about it; I want them to be afraid of US for a change instead of the other way around.

Say what you will about all his character flaws but Julian Assange had the right idea about what was needed and actually did something about bringing a vehicle for making it happen into existence.

"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson

 

[SavannahMann]

The Fourth Amendment does not say that I can't be burglarized.

So THAT is what the idiot is yammering this nonsense about?

Yeah. Pathetic isn't it?

 

[Boss]

That's the price we pay however the only hope for the common folk to regain the upper hand on the elitists that have been royally screwing us is for the public to get access to the behind the scenes information regarding what is really going on, the Media has failed at their responsibility so alternative means are all that is open to us.

I don't think that should include breaking the law or violating constitutional rights to privacy of any American. I'm sorry.... I just can't go along with that. I understand your frustration.... sometimes our frustration overcomes our emotions and we react in ways we shouldn't.

Even if violating your rights results in a positive outcome, it is not justifiable to violate your rights. Once you start down that rabbit hole, you lose all semblance of freedom very rapidly. We must maintain respect for the rule of law and the constitution.

The other aspect to this is what I mentioned before. Let's say the Wikileaks or Russians... whoever... had hacked emails and discovered something much more devastating and sinister... like the Clintons being involved in a child sex slave ring or something.... the kind of thing that would put them both in prison if it ever became public... but instead of releasing this info, the hackers blackmailed the Clintons into doing pretty much anything they wanted to keep it quiet? Would you be okay with that?

 

[NightFox]

That's the price we pay however the only hope for the common folk to regain the upper hand on the elitists that have been royally screwing us is for the public to get access to the behind the scenes information regarding what is really going on, the Media has failed at their responsibility so alternative means are all that is open to us.

I don't think that should include breaking the law or violating constitutional rights to privacy of any American. I'm sorry.... I just can't go along with that. I understand your frustration.... sometimes our frustration overcomes our emotions and we react in ways we shouldn't.

First off, you have "violating the constitutional rights to privacy" wrong, the 4th Amendment applies to the U.S. government not individual citizens, someone (private citizen or foreign operative) copying your emails and releasing them to the public doesn't violate your constitutionally protected rights, secondly the law is just an opinion on a piece of paper, the fact of the matter is that it is our "law makers" that are violating laws, ethics and generally accepted morality and it's about time the public became aware of exactly what they've been up to, if that means some "hacker" copying their emails (or voice recording them or video taping them or whatever) and releasing them to the public then so be it, as I said the establishment Media sure hasn't shown much propensity to do it.

Secondly I'm not advocating that anyone swipe the emails (or any other form of communications) from the common citizenry, heck we have the federal government doing that (thanks to people like Edward Snowden for letting the public know just how widespread it is), I'm advocating for what the stated mission of Wikileaks is; specifically getting the truth out about what our elected officials and government is really up to while protecting the sources.

Even if violating your rights results in a positive outcome, it is not justifiable to violate your rights. Once you start down that rabbit hole, you lose all semblance of freedom very rapidly. We must maintain respect for the rule of law and the constitution.

Again your rights are being violated by GOVERNMENT, I want the truth and specifics of that to see the light of day and I'm not concerned about the fact that it comes from "leaks" whether it be by "hackers" or anyone else.

The other aspect to this is what I mentioned before. Let's say the Wikileaks or Russians... whoever... had hacked emails and discovered something much more devastating and sinister... like the Clintons being involved in a child sex slave ring or something.... the kind of thing that would put them both in prison if it ever became public... but instead of releasing this info, the hackers blackmailed the Clintons into doing pretty much anything they wanted to keep it quiet? Would you be okay with that?

That's the price we pay not to mention there's nothing stopping that from happening anyways, the solution is for elected officials and those in power to refrain from carrying on nefarious nonsense behind the scenes and the ONLY way that's going to happen is if they're scared to death that their shenanigans will become public, they're not afraid of the common folk, they're not afraid of the establishment media and they're damn sure not afraid of the law.

 

[Eloy]

The CIA know a thing or two about spying and I, for one, take their word for it that the Russians helped minority president-elect Trump win the election.

A LOT of things helped Trump win the election! This is the case anytime anyone wins an election. For all intents and purposes, that's exactly what an election IS... two candidates vying to influence the voters. 527 groups actively attempt to influence voters, celebrities and entertainers actively try to influence the voters. Various foreign and domestic agents try to influence the voters. That's what elections are all about.

The CIA has NO evidence that anything "helped" anyone. That's a supposition based on the fact that most of the information leaked from hacked emails pertained to the Democrats. There was stuff leaked about Trump but it was already public knowledge so it didn't affect his campaign. Again, it was not the hacking that influenced anything, it was the information.

The CIA has evidence of Russian activity during the American presidential election. They just did not tell you.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Let me try.

I do not believe that Clinton's loss is due to Russian interference.

There is no consensus on "the left" regarding this question. Saying that "the left blames Russia for the loss" is entirely inaccurate.

However, it is a fact that Russia hacked into the DNC and Podesta's emails with the intent of influencing the election.

How about a concern thread which attempts to deal with this fact?

Podesta wasnt hacked,his dumbass self fell for a phishing scam that a twelve year old wouldnt have fallen for.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Let me try.

I do not believe that Clinton's loss is due to Russian interference.

There is no consensus on "the left" regarding this question. Saying that "the left blames Russia for the loss" is entirely inaccurate.

However, it is a fact that Russia hacked into the DNC and Podesta's emails with the intent of influencing the election.

How about a concern thread which attempts to deal with this fact?

Podesta wasnt hacked,his dumbass self fell for a phishing scam that a twelve year old wouldnt have fallen for.

That changes Everything !

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Let me try.

I do not believe that Clinton's loss is due to Russian interference.

There is no consensus on "the left" regarding this question. Saying that "the left blames Russia for the loss" is entirely inaccurate.

However, it is a fact that Russia hacked into the DNC and Podesta's emails with the intent of influencing the election.

How about a concern thread which attempts to deal with this fact?

Podesta wasnt hacked,his dumbass self fell for a phishing scam that a twelve year old wouldnt have fallen for.

That changes Everything !

It's confirmation that Podesta is a moron along with hillary.
Neither should be trusted with our national security.

 

[Boss]

That's the price we pay however the only hope for the common folk to regain the upper hand on the elitists that have been royally screwing us is for the public to get access to the behind the scenes information regarding what is really going on, the Media has failed at their responsibility so alternative means are all that is open to us.

I don't think that should include breaking the law or violating constitutional rights to privacy of any American. I'm sorry.... I just can't go along with that. I understand your frustration.... sometimes our frustration overcomes our emotions and we react in ways we shouldn't.

First off, you have "violating the constitutional rights to privacy" wrong, the 4th Amendment applies to the U.S. government not individual citizens, someone (private citizen or foreign operative) copying your emails and releasing them to the public doesn't violate your constitutionally protected rights, secondly the law is just an opinion on a piece of paper, the fact of the matter is that it is our "law makers" that are violating laws, ethics and generally accepted morality and it's about time the public became aware of exactly what they've been up to, if that means some "hacker" copying their emails (or voice recording them or video taping them or whatever) and releasing them to the public then so be it, as I said the establishment Media sure hasn't shown much propensity to do it.

Secondly I'm not advocating that anyone swipe the emails (or any other form of communications) from the common citizenry, heck we have the federal government doing that (thanks to people like Edward Snowden for letting the public know just how widespread it is), I'm advocating for what the stated mission of Wikileaks is; specifically getting the truth out about what our elected officials and government is really up to while protecting the sources.

Even if violating your rights results in a positive outcome, it is not justifiable to violate your rights. Once you start down that rabbit hole, you lose all semblance of freedom very rapidly. We must maintain respect for the rule of law and the constitution.

Again your rights are being violated by GOVERNMENT, I want the truth and specifics of that to see the light of day and I'm not concerned about the fact that it comes from "leaks" whether it be by "hackers" or anyone else.

The other aspect to this is what I mentioned before. Let's say the Wikileaks or Russians... whoever... had hacked emails and discovered something much more devastating and sinister... like the Clintons being involved in a child sex slave ring or something.... the kind of thing that would put them both in prison if it ever became public... but instead of releasing this info, the hackers blackmailed the Clintons into doing pretty much anything they wanted to keep it quiet? Would you be okay with that?

That's the price we pay not to mention there's nothing stopping that from happening anyways, the solution is for elected officials and those in power to refrain from carrying on nefarious nonsense behind the scenes and the ONLY way that's going to happen is if they're scared to death that their shenanigans will become public, they're not afraid of the common folk, they're not afraid of the establishment media and they're damn sure not afraid of the law.

Okay, I am not making an argument that hacking emails violates the 4th Amendment. That was someone else's argument. All the Bill of Rights outline limitations in government's power over us. However, the very nature of government is to protect the citizenry and uphold constitutional principles and values. So it IS a violation of the 4th for the government to condone such acts or fail to take action to prevent them.

It would be the same as saying it's perfectly okay for a private entity to confiscate your guns because they're not the government doing it. If the government fails to take action to prevent it they are complicit. So... No... you can't have anti-gun hoards running around breaking into homes to seize weapons while the government sits back and says... oh well? Not our problem!

As for "the price we pay" that's not an option for me. We don't condone foreign entities hacking private emails from the citizenry and political officials are still part of the citizenry... you do not sacrifice your rights when you become a public official.

 

[Boss]

The CIA know a thing or two about spying and I, for one, take their word for it that the Russians helped minority president-elect Trump win the election.

A LOT of things helped Trump win the election! This is the case anytime anyone wins an election. For all intents and purposes, that's exactly what an election IS... two candidates vying to influence the voters. 527 groups actively attempt to influence voters, celebrities and entertainers actively try to influence the voters. Various foreign and domestic agents try to influence the voters. That's what elections are all about.

The CIA has NO evidence that anything "helped" anyone. That's a supposition based on the fact that most of the information leaked from hacked emails pertained to the Democrats. There was stuff leaked about Trump but it was already public knowledge so it didn't affect his campaign. Again, it was not the hacking that influenced anything, it was the information.

The CIA has evidence of Russian activity during the American presidential election. They just did not tell you.

There's evidence of "Russian activity" all the time, not just during the election. What does that mean?

You are engaging in very rhetoric the DNC is hoping for here. You're promoting a fake conspiracy theory that the Russians somehow tapped into the system and changed the votes so that Trump won the election. You are tiptoeing around that allegation by saying things like "Russian activity" or "Russian influence" but that's the narrative you're really trying to promote. You're even taking it a step further and charging that the CIA knows this and isn't telling us.

Here's the thing... It's IMPOSSIBLE for Russians or anyone else to hack into our voting system and change results. While many states do have electronic ballots, there is NO state who's system is connected to the internet. Surely you're smart enough to comprehend if you're not online you can't be hacked. But again... America is FULL of really stupid people who will just believe what they want to hear... and if you run around promoting a myth that Russians hacked the election, that's what they'll believe.

So now, I have to ask this... what is the means to the end here? Because, look... if Trump defeated Hillary because Democrats failed to turn out the vote or didn't have the right message, that's one thing... you can proactively take action to do something about that next time. What can you do about a system that is vulnerable to 'whoever' just going in and changing your votes? You see, you are promoting a very dangerous narrative because the only solution to such a thing would be revolt and revolution. You best ask yourself, is that what you REALLY want?

 

[SavannahMann]

That's the price we pay however the only hope for the common folk to regain the upper hand on the elitists that have been royally screwing us is for the public to get access to the behind the scenes information regarding what is really going on, the Media has failed at their responsibility so alternative means are all that is open to us.

I don't think that should include breaking the law or violating constitutional rights to privacy of any American. I'm sorry.... I just can't go along with that. I understand your frustration.... sometimes our frustration overcomes our emotions and we react in ways we shouldn't.

First off, you have "violating the constitutional rights to privacy" wrong, the 4th Amendment applies to the U.S. government not individual citizens, someone (private citizen or foreign operative) copying your emails and releasing them to the public doesn't violate your constitutionally protected rights, secondly the law is just an opinion on a piece of paper, the fact of the matter is that it is our "law makers" that are violating laws, ethics and generally accepted morality and it's about time the public became aware of exactly what they've been up to, if that means some "hacker" copying their emails (or voice recording them or video taping them or whatever) and releasing them to the public then so be it, as I said the establishment Media sure hasn't shown much propensity to do it.

Secondly I'm not advocating that anyone swipe the emails (or any other form of communications) from the common citizenry, heck we have the federal government doing that (thanks to people like Edward Snowden for letting the public know just how widespread it is), I'm advocating for what the stated mission of Wikileaks is; specifically getting the truth out about what our elected officials and government is really up to while protecting the sources.

Even if violating your rights results in a positive outcome, it is not justifiable to violate your rights. Once you start down that rabbit hole, you lose all semblance of freedom very rapidly. We must maintain respect for the rule of law and the constitution.

Again your rights are being violated by GOVERNMENT, I want the truth and specifics of that to see the light of day and I'm not concerned about the fact that it comes from "leaks" whether it be by "hackers" or anyone else.

The other aspect to this is what I mentioned before. Let's say the Wikileaks or Russians... whoever... had hacked emails and discovered something much more devastating and sinister... like the Clintons being involved in a child sex slave ring or something.... the kind of thing that would put them both in prison if it ever became public... but instead of releasing this info, the hackers blackmailed the Clintons into doing pretty much anything they wanted to keep it quiet? Would you be okay with that?

That's the price we pay not to mention there's nothing stopping that from happening anyways, the solution is for elected officials and those in power to refrain from carrying on nefarious nonsense behind the scenes and the ONLY way that's going to happen is if they're scared to death that their shenanigans will become public, they're not afraid of the common folk, they're not afraid of the establishment media and they're damn sure not afraid of the law.

Okay, I am not making an argument that hacking emails violates the 4th Amendment. That was someone else's argument. All the Bill of Rights outline limitations in government's power over us. However, the very nature of government is to protect the citizenry and uphold constitutional principles and values. So it IS a violation of the 4th for the government to condone such acts or fail to take action to prevent them.

It would be the same as saying it's perfectly okay for a private entity to confiscate your guns because they're not the government doing it. If the government fails to take action to prevent it they are complicit. So... No... you can't have anti-gun hoards running around breaking into homes to seize weapons while the government sits back and says... oh well? Not our problem!

As for "the price we pay" that's not an option for me. We don't condone foreign entities hacking private emails from the citizenry and political officials are still part of the citizenry... you do not sacrifice your rights when you become a public official.

Oh FFS. Why is it that the President doesn't get bent out of shape and expel diplomats when an old lady is scammed out of her life savings by a crook operating in Taiwan? Why is it that we hear about people humiliated when their phone is hacked, but the Government loses its mind when Jennifer Lawrence gets hacked. Oh no, pics of a star instead of a nobody are hacked, the FBI has to get involved.

Romanian hackers steal credit card information every single day. How many Romanian assets have been seized? How many Romanian diplomats have been kicked out of the country? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/01/13/credit-card-hacking-romania/4456491/

Now, it was a political figure. Oh we have to take action, they're people too. Really? Have we or anyone kicked Chinese out of the country for stealing designs of anything? Chinese copycat cars

If the Hillary campaign had been just like the rest of us, and entitled to the same protections we get, the FBI would have taken a report, filed it, and forgotten it. Because Hillary is not like the rest of us, Diplomats get sent home, assets get seized, and threats are issued.

The only people I believe less than cops, are politicians. It turns out I've had a good reason all along, because the Politicans were jerking our chains talking among themselves how they have to deal with the unwashed masses.

If Hillary was a regular person, this thread and the dozens of dozens just like it, would have gotten one or two replies and been forgotten. Because this shit happens every fucking day. When it's Mrs. Herbert Thumwalker of Omaha, the Government sighs and says how they would like to help, but they just can't. Sorry. When it's Jennifer Lawrence oh my how awful that the Stars get hacked like that. Mrs. Herbert Thumwalker of Omaha is a fool for clicking on a link. Podesta was a victim who was tricked.

If Hillary got the same protection as the rest of us, the story would have been forgotten by now.

 

[Boss]

That's the price we pay however the only hope for the common folk to regain the upper hand on the elitists that have been royally screwing us is for the public to get access to the behind the scenes information regarding what is really going on, the Media has failed at their responsibility so alternative means are all that is open to us.

I don't think that should include breaking the law or violating constitutional rights to privacy of any American. I'm sorry.... I just can't go along with that. I understand your frustration.... sometimes our frustration overcomes our emotions and we react in ways we shouldn't.

First off, you have "violating the constitutional rights to privacy" wrong, the 4th Amendment applies to the U.S. government not individual citizens, someone (private citizen or foreign operative) copying your emails and releasing them to the public doesn't violate your constitutionally protected rights, secondly the law is just an opinion on a piece of paper, the fact of the matter is that it is our "law makers" that are violating laws, ethics and generally accepted morality and it's about time the public became aware of exactly what they've been up to, if that means some "hacker" copying their emails (or voice recording them or video taping them or whatever) and releasing them to the public then so be it, as I said the establishment Media sure hasn't shown much propensity to do it.

Secondly I'm not advocating that anyone swipe the emails (or any other form of communications) from the common citizenry, heck we have the federal government doing that (thanks to people like Edward Snowden for letting the public know just how widespread it is), I'm advocating for what the stated mission of Wikileaks is; specifically getting the truth out about what our elected officials and government is really up to while protecting the sources.

Even if violating your rights results in a positive outcome, it is not justifiable to violate your rights. Once you start down that rabbit hole, you lose all semblance of freedom very rapidly. We must maintain respect for the rule of law and the constitution.

Again your rights are being violated by GOVERNMENT, I want the truth and specifics of that to see the light of day and I'm not concerned about the fact that it comes from "leaks" whether it be by "hackers" or anyone else.

The other aspect to this is what I mentioned before. Let's say the Wikileaks or Russians... whoever... had hacked emails and discovered something much more devastating and sinister... like the Clintons being involved in a child sex slave ring or something.... the kind of thing that would put them both in prison if it ever became public... but instead of releasing this info, the hackers blackmailed the Clintons into doing pretty much anything they wanted to keep it quiet? Would you be okay with that?

That's the price we pay not to mention there's nothing stopping that from happening anyways, the solution is for elected officials and those in power to refrain from carrying on nefarious nonsense behind the scenes and the ONLY way that's going to happen is if they're scared to death that their shenanigans will become public, they're not afraid of the common folk, they're not afraid of the establishment media and they're damn sure not afraid of the law.

Okay, I am not making an argument that hacking emails violates the 4th Amendment. That was someone else's argument. All the Bill of Rights outline limitations in government's power over us. However, the very nature of government is to protect the citizenry and uphold constitutional principles and values. So it IS a violation of the 4th for the government to condone such acts or fail to take action to prevent them.

It would be the same as saying it's perfectly okay for a private entity to confiscate your guns because they're not the government doing it. If the government fails to take action to prevent it they are complicit. So... No... you can't have anti-gun hoards running around breaking into homes to seize weapons while the government sits back and says... oh well? Not our problem!

As for "the price we pay" that's not an option for me. We don't condone foreign entities hacking private emails from the citizenry and political officials are still part of the citizenry... you do not sacrifice your rights when you become a public official.

Oh FFS. Why is it that the President doesn't get bent out of shape and expel diplomats when an old lady is scammed out of her life savings by a crook operating in Taiwan? Why is it that we hear about people humiliated when their phone is hacked, but the Government loses its mind when Jennifer Lawrence gets hacked. Oh no, pics of a star instead of a nobody are hacked, the FBI has to get involved.

Romanian hackers steal credit card information every single day. How many Romanian assets have been seized? How many Romanian diplomats have been kicked out of the country? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/01/13/credit-card-hacking-romania/4456491/

Now, it was a political figure. Oh we have to take action, they're people too. Really? Have we or anyone kicked Chinese out of the country for stealing designs of anything? Chinese copycat cars

If the Hillary campaign had been just like the rest of us, and entitled to the same protections we get, the FBI would have taken a report, filed it, and forgotten it. Because Hillary is not like the rest of us, Diplomats get sent home, assets get seized, and threats are issued.

The only people I believe less than cops, are politicians. It turns out I've had a good reason all along, because the Politicans were jerking our chains talking among themselves how they have to deal with the unwashed masses.

If Hillary was a regular person, this thread and the dozens of dozens just like it, would have gotten one or two replies and been forgotten. Because this shit happens every fucking day. When it's Mrs. Herbert Thumwalker of Omaha, the Government sighs and says how they would like to help, but they just can't. Sorry. When it's Jennifer Lawrence oh my how awful that the Stars get hacked like that. Mrs. Herbert Thumwalker of Omaha is a fool for clicking on a link. Podesta was a victim who was tricked.

If Hillary got the same protection as the rest of us, the story would have been forgotten by now.

We apparently have two entirely different issues here. I'm a Conservative, I didn't vote for Hillary, I don't support liberalism or socialism. I am not making ANY argument on behalf of Hillary Clinton or the DNC.

That said, I don't condone foreign entities hacking our emails... I don't care who's emails they are. I'm sorry if you think it's okay because in this instance it turned out politically well for "our side" but I still don't condone it on general principle.

That has nothing to do with the topic of the OP. The left is wanting desperately to promote a false narrative with this by implying the Russians hacked the election... they didn't hack the election. That's a lie. They avoid being called out by using little semantics tricks like "Russians influenced" and "Russians helped" or there was "Russian activity".... these are intentionally used to convey the false idea that the Russians hacked the election.

You want to venture off in the weeds with some alt-right boneheaded argument that it's perfectly fine for Assange and others to hack into our emails because they're revealing information Americans need to know. Then you want to rip into a "war on the establishment" tangent as justification for condoning espionage. I'm just not down with that. I'm sorry, my principles are getting in the way. I don't care what their purpose is or the results of what their hacking provides, I still don't condone it.

Now, what can be done about it? I don't know... I don't think you can just start kicking people out of the country who had nothing to do with it.... that seems a little extreme to me. Just as it's extreme to seize Taiwanese assets because some old lady's credit card was stolen. If you have evidence of a specific culprit and they have assets, fine... that's okay.... but you can't arbitrarily go around holding people accountable who aren't associated with the crime.

ONE thing that we can do is hold public officials accountable for properly handling electronic information which is vulnerable to cyber attack. If they are setting up private unsecured servers in their closets, we have to punish them for that. We can't just slap their wrist and move on. Our Espionage Act must be rigorously enforced and we have to be diligent in ensuring our government agencies and organizations have state-of-the-art cyber security. Beyond that, there's not much that can be done after the breach has occurred but we sure as hell shouldn't condone it!

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

That's the price we pay however the only hope for the common folk to regain the upper hand on the elitists that have been royally screwing us is for the public to get access to the behind the scenes information regarding what is really going on, the Media has failed at their responsibility so alternative means are all that is open to us.

I don't think that should include breaking the law or violating constitutional rights to privacy of any American. I'm sorry.... I just can't go along with that. I understand your frustration.... sometimes our frustration overcomes our emotions and we react in ways we shouldn't.

First off, you have "violating the constitutional rights to privacy" wrong, the 4th Amendment applies to the U.S. government not individual citizens, someone (private citizen or foreign operative) copying your emails and releasing them to the public doesn't violate your constitutionally protected rights, secondly the law is just an opinion on a piece of paper, the fact of the matter is that it is our "law makers" that are violating laws, ethics and generally accepted morality and it's about time the public became aware of exactly what they've been up to, if that means some "hacker" copying their emails (or voice recording them or video taping them or whatever) and releasing them to the public then so be it, as I said the establishment Media sure hasn't shown much propensity to do it.

Secondly I'm not advocating that anyone swipe the emails (or any other form of communications) from the common citizenry, heck we have the federal government doing that (thanks to people like Edward Snowden for letting the public know just how widespread it is), I'm advocating for what the stated mission of Wikileaks is; specifically getting the truth out about what our elected officials and government is really up to while protecting the sources.

Even if violating your rights results in a positive outcome, it is not justifiable to violate your rights. Once you start down that rabbit hole, you lose all semblance of freedom very rapidly. We must maintain respect for the rule of law and the constitution.

Again your rights are being violated by GOVERNMENT, I want the truth and specifics of that to see the light of day and I'm not concerned about the fact that it comes from "leaks" whether it be by "hackers" or anyone else.

The other aspect to this is what I mentioned before. Let's say the Wikileaks or Russians... whoever... had hacked emails and discovered something much more devastating and sinister... like the Clintons being involved in a child sex slave ring or something.... the kind of thing that would put them both in prison if it ever became public... but instead of releasing this info, the hackers blackmailed the Clintons into doing pretty much anything they wanted to keep it quiet? Would you be okay with that?

That's the price we pay not to mention there's nothing stopping that from happening anyways, the solution is for elected officials and those in power to refrain from carrying on nefarious nonsense behind the scenes and the ONLY way that's going to happen is if they're scared to death that their shenanigans will become public, they're not afraid of the common folk, they're not afraid of the establishment media and they're damn sure not afraid of the law.

Okay, I am not making an argument that hacking emails violates the 4th Amendment. That was someone else's argument. All the Bill of Rights outline limitations in government's power over us. However, the very nature of government is to protect the citizenry and uphold constitutional principles and values. So it IS a violation of the 4th for the government to condone such acts or fail to take action to prevent them.

It would be the same as saying it's perfectly okay for a private entity to confiscate your guns because they're not the government doing it. If the government fails to take action to prevent it they are complicit. So... No... you can't have anti-gun hoards running around breaking into homes to seize weapons while the government sits back and says... oh well? Not our problem!

As for "the price we pay" that's not an option for me. We don't condone foreign entities hacking private emails from the citizenry and political officials are still part of the citizenry... you do not sacrifice your rights when you become a public official.

Oh FFS. Why is it that the President doesn't get bent out of shape and expel diplomats when an old lady is scammed out of her life savings by a crook operating in Taiwan? Why is it that we hear about people humiliated when their phone is hacked, but the Government loses its mind when Jennifer Lawrence gets hacked. Oh no, pics of a star instead of a nobody are hacked, the FBI has to get involved.

Romanian hackers steal credit card information every single day. How many Romanian assets have been seized? How many Romanian diplomats have been kicked out of the country? U.S. data thefts turn spotlight on Romania

Now, it was a political figure. Oh we have to take action, they're people too. Really? Have we or anyone kicked Chinese out of the country for stealing designs of anything? Chinese copycat cars

If the Hillary campaign had been just like the rest of us, and entitled to the same protections we get, the FBI would have taken a report, filed it, and forgotten it. Because Hillary is not like the rest of us, Diplomats get sent home, assets get seized, and threats are issued.

The only people I believe less than cops, are politicians. It turns out I've had a good reason all along, because the Politicans were jerking our chains talking among themselves how they have to deal with the unwashed masses.

If Hillary was a regular person, this thread and the dozens of dozens just like it, would have gotten one or two replies and been forgotten. Because this shit happens every fucking day. When it's Mrs. Herbert Thumwalker of Omaha, the Government sighs and says how they would like to help, but they just can't. Sorry. When it's Jennifer Lawrence oh my how awful that the Stars get hacked like that. Mrs. Herbert Thumwalker of Omaha is a fool for clicking on a link. Podesta was a victim who was tricked.

If Hillary got the same protection as the rest of us, the story would have been forgotten by now.

We apparently have two entirely different issues here. I'm a Conservative, I didn't vote for Hillary, I don't support liberalism or socialism. I am not making ANY argument on behalf of Hillary Clinton or the DNC.

That said, I don't condone foreign entities hacking our emails... I don't care who's emails they are. I'm sorry if you think it's okay because in this instance it turned out politically well for "our side" but I still don't condone it on general principle.

That has nothing to do with the topic of the OP. The left is wanting desperately to promote a false narrative with this by implying the Russians hacked the election... they didn't hack the election. That's a lie. They avoid being called out by using little semantics tricks like "Russians influenced" and "Russians helped" or there was "Russian activity".... these are intentionally used to convey the false idea that the Russians hacked the election.

You want to venture off in the weeds with some alt-right boneheaded argument that it's perfectly fine for Assange and others to hack into our emails because they're revealing information Americans need to know. Then you want to rip into a "war on the establishment" tangent as justification for condoning espionage. I'm just not down with that. I'm sorry, my principles are getting in the way. I don't care what their purpose is or the results of what their hacking provides, I still don't condone it.

Now, what can be done about it? I don't know... I don't think you can just start kicking people out of the country who had nothing to do with it.... that seems a little extreme to me. Just as it's extreme to seize Taiwanese assets because some old lady's credit card was stolen. If you have evidence of a specific culprit and they have assets, fine... that's okay.... but you can't arbitrarily go around holding people accountable who aren't associated with the crime.

ONE thing that we can do is hold public officials accountable for properly handling electronic information which is vulnerable to cyber attack. If they are setting up private unsecured servers in their closets, we have to punish them for that. We can't just slap their wrist and move on. Our Espionage Act must be rigorously enforced and we have to be diligent in ensuring our government agencies and organizations have state-of-the-art cyber security. Beyond that, there's not much that can be done after the breach has occurred but we sure as hell shouldn't condone it!

If foreign hacking exposes corruption in either party i'm good with it.
If it exposes state secrets i'm not.
The only problem is that you cant pick and choose whats hacked.

 

[Boss]

If foreign hacking exposes corruption in either party i'm good with it.
If it exposes state secrets i'm not.
The only problem is that you cant pick and choose whats hacked.

And that's precisely why you shouldn't ever be "good with it" either way.

Hey look guys... I am tickled to death the corrupt and crooked DNC got exposed for the frauds they are.... serves them right! That doesn't excuse the hackers for invading privacy of American citizens. I think we HAVE to condemn that, even when we may be "okay" with the results.

It comes down to a principle thing and maybe that's lost on the alt-right?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

If foreign hacking exposes corruption in either party i'm good with it.
If it exposes state secrets i'm not.
The only problem is that you cant pick and choose whats hacked.

And that's precisely why you shouldn't ever be "good with it" either way.

Hey look guys... I am tickled to death the corrupt and crooked DNC got exposed for the frauds they are.... serves them right! That doesn't excuse the hackers for invading privacy of American citizens. I think we HAVE to condemn that, even when we may be "okay" with the results.

It comes down to a principle thing and maybe that's lost on the alt-right?

When our politicians skirt the law to avoid scrutiny I dont see things changing anytime soon.

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know what I'm waiting for? To see if Trump lifts the sanctions that Obama has placed on Russia.

 

[Boss]

You know what I'm waiting for? To see if Trump lifts the sanctions that Obama has placed on Russia.

He probably will because there is no real reason for sanctions on Russia.

I swear, the left is too much... All it took to get you people disliking the Russians was for them to root against you in one election! The right literally had to drag you people kicking and screaming to end the Cold War under Reagan and you're still backing the Russian-backed regime in Cuba... but all of a sudden you've become big enemies with Russia!