Interesting argument against the Ground Zero Mosque

[Modbert]

Sad for you that it is NOT irrelevant. Your bullshit about this has nothing to do with religion is wearing thin

Chanel asked me about sleeper cells. You seem to be saying that sleeper cells = average Muslim. Now, I hope you're not, and if you don't think so then you would agree with me that Chanel's report is irrelevant.

 

[logical4u]

The man that wants to do this is not a "religious" man. He has spoken openly of what he wants: the destruction of western civilization. It is easy to understand why libs are so willing to accept this "faith"; it is the subjugation of the masses by the 'elites' (of the religion....).

He wants a place to launch sedition. He wants to replace our system of law, with a system based on a few 'elite' judges (can you say 'good ol' boys'). He does not want women to have rights. He does not want any person of any other faith to have rights. He only wants the 'religious elites' to have rights, but more than that, he wants them to have power over the rest of the population.

You can stop him now, when it is relatively easy or wait until the sedition starts and the power grows, before you open your eyes to 'the horror' that is this man's dream. At that point it will be a lot messier. Then the ones who were willing to lay down for him will be crying for those he has punished and hurt to stop him, because they will not have the courage to act at that point, either.

None of these things are true.

If you are calling me a liar, doesn't that make you love me, love me, because the libs protect and defend liars?

From article: Rauf's Radicals | The Weekly Standard


The leader of the “Ground Zero mosque” project in New York, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, is commonly portrayed as a moderate and a sincere believer in interfaith dialogue. Typical is a profile in Time that described Rauf and his wife as "the kind of Muslim leaders right-wing commentators fantasize about: modernists and moderates who openly condemn the death cult of al-Qaeda and its adherents." But such descriptions are belied by his record, especially at the American Society for Muslim Advancement (ASMA), the non-profit that he founded and chairs along with the Cordoba Initiative, sponsor of the proposed mosque and cultural center in downtown Manhattan.
...
Gamei'a's successor at the 96th St. mosque, Imam Abu-Namous, told the October 26, 2001 issue of the Forward that "Imam Al-Gamei'a had not been speaking on behalf of the Islamic Cultural Center, which 'will continue to participate' in interfaith dialogue.” But he added that "he considered the evidence against Osama bin Laden insufficient, and said he could 'not rule out' any possible perpetrators, whether Muslim, Christian or Jewish."
Rauf’s own rhetoric has not always been measured. On March 21, 2004, he told the Sydney Morning Herald that the U.S. and the West would have to recognize the damage they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end. The Australian daily reported “Imam Feisal said the West had to understand the terrorists’ point of view.” The paper also cited Rauf’s arguments that “the Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians . . . it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima.”
... “I have been saying since the 1967 war that if there is peace between Israel and Palestine, in time the Palestinians will prevail.”
Rauf projects an inclusive attitude. Describing the Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow program, ASMA promises that it will include “representation of all religious ideologies & sects: (Shia, Sunni, Ismaili, Sufi, Salafi, secularists, traditionalist etc).” But “Salafi” is just a cover term for “Wahhabi”--the state sect in Saudi Arabia, which spreads around the globe its message of violence against Shias, Sunnis who reject “Salafism,” Ismailis, Sufis, secularists, and traditionalists.
Rauf, it is true, has recruited some Muslim dissidents and reformers to MLT, including the Canadian “Muslim refusenik” Irshad Manji and the Danish parliamentarian Naser Khader. Yet the radicals sponsored by MLT far outnumber such moderates. Islamists in the MLT roster include, in the U.S., Debbie Almontaser, the controversial nominee to head an Arabic-language high school in New York, the Khalil Gibran International Academy. Almontaser also took a leading role in a polemical assault on the New York Police Department led by the radical Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR).
In the Netherlands, ASMA has enrolled Mustafa Hamurcu and Nur Hamurcu from Milli Gorus, the anti-Jewish, conspiratorialist movement among Turkish Muslims.
In Britain, Rauf and ASMA have favored two academics, Tufyal Choudhury of Durham University and Hisham Hellyer of Warwick University, whose rhetoric focuses on Islamist grievances, mainly imagined. Choudhury has argued that tension between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe is inevitable, and that integration of Muslims should be defined as “management of conflict.” Hellyer has alleged that security issues caused by Islamist terrorism have imposed restrictions on “housing, health, education” for European Muslims--an absurd charge.
Among British Muslims selected for MLT we also find three of the most assiduous detractors of Muslim moderates in the island. These are Aftab Ahmad Malik, an acolyte of the radical preacher Hamza Yusuf Hanson; Masud Ahmed Khan, who operates a website called deenport.com as a monitor against anti-extremist Muslims, and Fareena Alam. Alam’s contributions include a retrospective defense, in a 2007 London Guardian column, of John Walker Lindh, the American captured in 2001 fighting in Taliban ranks and sentenced to prison. Fareena Alam described Lindh as “the focus of a campaign of disinformation” and victim of a “gross miscarriage of justice.”
Another citation from Alam eloquently expresses the outlook prevalent among those Feisal Abdul Rauf hopes will be the Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow. In mid-July 2010 she was quoted about debates over the headscarf and face coverings among Muslim women in Europe: the issue, she said, “has more to do with Europe's own identity crisis than with the presence of some 'dangerous other'. At a time when post-communist, secular, democratic Europe was supposed to have been ascendant, playing its decisive role at the end of history, Islam came and spoiled the party.” So triumphalist a view is hardly conducive to the "mutual recognition and respect" between Islam and the West that is the stated goal of the Ground Zero mosque plan.


Media Mum on Ground Zero Mosque Imam's Terror Ties, 'Blame America' Talk

“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a key figure in Malaysian-based Perdana Global Peace Organization, according to its [w]ebsite,” reported The New York Post on June 5. “Perdana is the single biggest donor ($366,000) so far to the Free Gaza Movement, a key organizer of the six-ship flotilla that tried to break Israel's blockade of the Hamas-run Gaza Strip Monday.”

Members of the flotilla included the IHH, a Turkish group with Hamas ties that has allegedly provided weapons to Islamic militants.

The New York Post also reported that Rauf “told a London-based Arabic newspaper that he will turn to Muslim nations for funding” to pay for the $100 million mosque.



Some critics of the mosque are concerned that the money may come from foreign leaders or terror groups who seek the destruction of the United States. Republican gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio has demanded to know the legality of the funding behind the mosque.



Rauf has also made remarks that some have called inflammatory and put his claims that he is a “moderate” Muslim into question.



In 2001, Rauf told CBS’s ’60 Minutes’ that the U.S. was partially responsible for the September 11th attacks.



“I wouldn`t say that the United States deserved what happened. But the United States` policies were an accessory to the crime that happened,” Rauf said.



But, during the current controversy over the Ground Zero mosque, Rauf’s controversial statement was only reported by one network news show – CBS “Evening News” on July 20. It was ignored by the other networks, as well as The New York Times and The Washington Post.



Concerns over the mosque’s funding were only mentioned briefly in a quote in one New York Times article from June 18.



“Legitimate and understandable concerns about these two endeavors have arisen, and it is good these are being aired and discussed,” the Times quoted Joseph Zwilling, the spokesman for the New York Catholic Archdiocese, as saying. “'It is acceptable to ask questions about security, safety, the background and history of the groups hoping to build and buy.”



And in a Nexis search of The New York Times, The Washington Post and the three network news organizations, the separate terms “Feisal Abdul Rauf,” “New York and Mosque” and “Cordoba” revealed that, since last December, the network news stations covered theMosque issue 10 times, The New York Times covered it seven times and The Washington Post has covered it four times. None of those reports mentioned concerns over the funding sources or Rauf’s terror ties and previous comments.


and....Mischief in Manhattan

The Koran commands Muslims to, "Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book" -- i.e., Jews and Christians. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of "fitna"

So what gives Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf of the "Cordoba Initiative" and his cohorts the misplaced idea that they will increase tolerance for Muslims by brazenly displaying their own intolerance in this case?

Do they not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?

There are many questions that we would like to ask. Questions about where the funding is coming from? If this mosque is being funded by Saudi sources, then it is an even bigger slap in the face of Americans, as nine of the jihadis in the Twin Tower calamity were Saudis.

If Rauf is serious about building bridges, then he could have dedicated space in this so-called community centre to a church and synagogue, but he did not. We passed on this message to him through a mutual Saudi friend, but received no answer. He could have proposed a memorial to the 9/11 dead with a denouncement of the doctrine of armed jihad, but he chose not to.

It's a repugnant thought that $100 million would be brought into the United States rather than be directed at dying and needy Muslims in Darfur or Pakistan.

Let's not forget that a mosque is an exclusive place of worship for Muslims and not an inviting community centre. Most Americans are wary of mosques due to the hard core rhetoric that is used in pulpits. And rightly so. As Muslims we are dismayed that our co-religionists have such little consideration for their fellow citizens and wish to rub salt in their wounds and pretend they are applying a balm to sooth the pain.

The Koran implores Muslims to speak the truth, even if it hurts the one who utters the truth. Today we speak the truth, knowing very well Muslims have forgotten this crucial injunction from Allah.

If this mosque does get built, it will forever be a lightning rod for those who have little room for Muslims or Islam in the U.S. We simply cannot understand why on Earth the traditional leadership of America's Muslims would not realize their folly and back out in an act of goodwill.

As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America, we understand their goodwill.

Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.



Read more: Mischief in Manhattan

 

[ConHog]

Sad for you that it is NOT irrelevant. Your bullshit about this has nothing to do with religion is wearing thin

Chanel asked me about sleeper cells. You seem to be saying that sleeper cells = average Muslim. Now, I hope you're not, and if you don't think so then you would agree with me that Chanel's report is irrelevant.

The truth is, we have no idea how many sleeper cells there are out there. But no, I don't think all Muslims are a member of a sleeper cell. I do think all Muslims sympathize with the terrorists though. Yep, ever last fucking one of them. Call me a bigot, I don't care. The proof is in the pudding. Let the motherfuckers stand up and stop the terrorism if they don't support it.

That brings up another point. IF these peace loving assholes want to help their people why don't they invest that $100M into helping the Palestinians out? Oh that's right, they hate the Palestinians to, except insofar as they can use them to whine about how mistreated the Muslims are.

Seriously Bert, you don't know SHIT about Islam. not a damned thing. educate yourself.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Sad for you that it is NOT irrelevant. Your bullshit about this has nothing to do with religion is wearing thin

Chanel asked me about sleeper cells. You seem to be saying that sleeper cells = average Muslim. Now, I hope you're not, and if you don't think so then you would agree with me that Chanel's report is irrelevant.

Winston Churchill It is no use dealing with illusions and make-believes. We must look at the facts. The world ... is too dangerous for anyone to be able to afford to nurse illusions. We must look at realities.What the Quran has to say about it

 

[chanel]

Interesting article about a "moderate mosque" in D.C. Bloomberg points to this as what he would like to see in his city.

Dar al-Hijra was established in 1991. Not so coincidentally, that is the same year American leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood wrote an internal memorandum to their global headquarters in Egypt, explaining that they saw their work in the United States as a “grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within.” Echoing imam Abdul-Malik, the Brotherhood said its tactic would be “sabotage.” (The memo is here, with the English translation following the original Arabic pages.)

The memorandum elaborates that every city should have an “axis” and “perimeter” from which this jihad-by-sabotage strategy is headquartered. That axis, it adds, will be known as “the Islamic Center.” Islamic centers — just like the one at Dar al-Hijra, just like the one planned for Ground Zero — are to become “the ‘base’ for our rise,” the memo says. They are to be the focal point of education, preparation, and the “supply [of] our battalions.” Battalions are small cells of fighters. In Muslim Brotherhood ideology (i.e., Islamist ideology) it is assumed that, at a certain mature point, when Muslim forces are strong enough, violent jihad will be effective, so Islamists prepare for it.

Quite the opposite of assimilation and toleration, the memo envisions each Islamic center as a “seed for a small Islamic society” and a “House of Dawa.” Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, the spiritual guide of the Muslim Brotherhood, has proclaimed that dawa, the stealth form of jihad, is the method by which Islam will “conquer America” and “conquer Europe.”

More Moderate Muslims - Andrew C. McCarthy - National Review Online

Financed by the Saudis. Check out the article. It's like a "who's who" on the CIA hit list.

 

[chanel]

Not so fast.

The developers of the controversial mosque proposed near Ground Zero own only half the site where they want to construct the $100 million building, The Post has learned.

One of the two buildings on Park Place is owned by Con Edison, even though Soho Properties told officials and the public that it owns the entire parcel. And any potential sale by Con Ed faces a review by the state Public Service Commission.

“We never heard anything about Con Ed whatsoever,” said a stunned Julie Menin, the chairwoman of Community Board 1, which passed a May resolution supporting the mosque.

Daisy Khan, one of the mosque’s organizers, told The Post last week that both buildings on Park Place are needed to house the worship and cultural center. But she claimed ignorance about the Con Ed ownership of 49-51 Park Place and referred questions to Soho Properties, which bought the building at 45-47 Park Place in 2009.

Read more: Half-baked mosque - NYPOST.com

More lies?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world, a secular government, with a great degree of religious freedom.

What is our beef with the Muslims of Indonesia?

And Turkey is a republic with a secular government and freedom of religion. It is 99% Muslim.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world, a secular government, with a great degree of religious freedom.

What is our beef with the Muslims of Indonesia?

And Turkey is a republic with a secular government and freedom of religion. It is 99% Muslim.

The punch drunk poster drags herself off the canvas again to present her ignorance.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/2586994-post428.html

Turkey Islam not islam troll

Ahmad Ibn Taymiyya (1263-1328) "since lawful warfare is essentially jihad and since its aim is that the religion is God's entirely and God's word is uppermost, therefore according to all Muslims, those who stand in the way of this aim must be fought."

Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406), "in the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force."


Maliki jurist, Ibn Abi Zayd al Qayrawani (d. 996),: "Jihad is a Divine institution. Its performance by certain individuals may dispense others from it. We Malikis maintain that it is preferable not to begin hostilities with the enemy before having invited the latter to embrace the religion of Allah except where the enemy attacks first. They have either the alternative of converting to Islam or paying the poll tax (jizya), short of which war is declared against them."

Averroes (1126-1198) says this: "the Muslims are agreed that the aim of warfare against the People of the Book . . . is twofold: either conversion to Islam, or payment of poll-tax (jizya)."

 

[logical4u]

Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world, a secular government, with a great degree of religious freedom.

What is our beef with the Muslims of Indonesia?

And Turkey is a republic with a secular government and freedom of religion. It is 99% Muslim.

The only reason Turkey is ruled secularly: after WWII, its Constitution was influenced by western countries: it has given power to the military to overthrow the government if the government is infiltrated by religious nut jobs. The military has used this in the past and then transferred the government back to the people. If you watch closely, it looks like it might be getting ready to happen, again.

 

[ConservativeDad]

I didn't compare nazis to muslims you fool. I compared one group building a shrine next to an atrocity committed by members of their group to another group doing the same thing. Simpleton.

Wrong. You compared the Nazis (A political group who's one of main goals was to rid the world of what they considered to be undesirables, including Jews) and Muslims (People who follow the religion of Islam).

You compared one group's who entire existence, goals, and actions were one of hate and death and a religion that has radicals.

Comparing what the Nazis did and what happened on 9/11 and saying they're the exact same thing is too moronic for words.

Actually, the rank and file of Germany's national socialist party probably had no idea of the depth of Hitler's hatred nor the lengths he would go to. It's not like it was one of his campaign promises. There were probably relatively few who knew and approved.

Likely your average Muslim is a peaceful sort, a good neighbor, and kind to children and animals. But the sheer volume of facts shows that there is a radical side to islam, and there are a significant number of them that wish us dead, you as much as me.

I used an example much like this on another board I post at. (a statue of hitler at auschwitz).

It does not equate Muslim to Nazi. But, to build a mosque so near to the ground where so many suffered and died is incredibly insensitive and is a slap in the face to those who suffered along with them. And it absolutely parallels the insensitivity of erecting a Nazi memorial at any site associated with the holocaust.

I think it's probably legal to build it, and certainly inconsiderate and inhumane to do so.

 

[bodecea]

Sad for you that it is NOT irrelevant. Your bullshit about this has nothing to do with religion is wearing thin

Chanel asked me about sleeper cells. You seem to be saying that sleeper cells = average Muslim. Now, I hope you're not, and if you don't think so then you would agree with me that Chanel's report is irrelevant.

Winston Churchill It is no use dealing with illusions and make-believes. We must look at the facts. The world ... is too dangerous for anyone to be able to afford to nurse illusions. We must look at realities.What the Quran has to say about it

Churchill had some interesting thoughts on Indians, Hindus and Gandhi too.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Chanel asked me about sleeper cells. You seem to be saying that sleeper cells = average Muslim. Now, I hope you're not, and if you don't think so then you would agree with me that Chanel's report is irrelevant.

Winston Churchill It is no use dealing with illusions and make-believes. We must look at the facts. The world ... is too dangerous for anyone to be able to afford to nurse illusions. We must look at realities.What the Quran has to say about it

Churchill had some interesting thoughts on Indians, Hindus and Gandhi too.

None of what Churchill thought about anything changes the fact that you and your pathetic friends still live in a cesspoopl of empty dreams and illusion when it comes to Islam.
Nearly 10 years down the round from 911 and the only threat you can see is the Christian faith.

 

[Jack Fate]

Here is my argument against the mosque near ground zero.

It would stand as a victory of Islam over everything America stands for. Islam is nothing more than a repressive, hateful, murderous cult.

 

[ConHog]

Here is my argument against the mosque near ground zero.

It would stand as a victory of Islam over everything America stands for. Islam is nothing more than a repressive, hateful, murderous cult.

You fool, Islam has nothing to do with this Islamic group wanting to build this Islamic mosque.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Here is my argument against the mosque near ground zero.

It would stand as a victory of Islam over everything America stands for. Islam is nothing more than a repressive, hateful, murderous cult.

Actually, banning the mosque would be a victory over what we stand for.

At least what some of us stand for.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world, a secular government, with a great degree of religious freedom.

What is our beef with the Muslims of Indonesia?

And Turkey is a republic with a secular government and freedom of religion. It is 99% Muslim.

The punch drunk poster drags herself off the canvas again to present her ignorance.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/2586994-post428.html

Turkey Islam not islam troll

Ahmad Ibn Taymiyya (1263-1328) "since lawful warfare is essentially jihad and since its aim is that the religion is God's entirely and God's word is uppermost, therefore according to all Muslims, those who stand in the way of this aim must be fought."

Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406), "in the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force."


Maliki jurist, Ibn Abi Zayd al Qayrawani (d. 996),: "Jihad is a Divine institution. Its performance by certain individuals may dispense others from it. We Malikis maintain that it is preferable not to begin hostilities with the enemy before having invited the latter to embrace the religion of Allah except where the enemy attacks first. They have either the alternative of converting to Islam or paying the poll tax (jizya), short of which war is declared against them."

Averroes (1126-1198) says this: "the Muslims are agreed that the aim of warfare against the People of the Book . . . is twofold: either conversion to Islam, or payment of poll-tax (jizya)."

Hey, good news. I found your baseball.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I didn't compare nazis to muslims you fool. I compared one group building a shrine next to an atrocity committed by members of their group to another group doing the same thing. Simpleton.

Wrong. You compared the Nazis (A political group who's one of main goals was to rid the world of what they considered to be undesirables, including Jews) and Muslims (People who follow the religion of Islam).

You compared one group's who entire existence, goals, and actions were one of hate and death and a religion that has radicals.

Comparing what the Nazis did and what happened on 9/11 and saying they're the exact same thing is too moronic for words.

Actually, the rank and file of Germany's national socialist party probably had no idea of the depth of Hitler's hatred nor the lengths he would go to. It's not like it was one of his campaign promises. There were probably relatively few who knew and approved.

Likely your average Muslim is a peaceful sort, a good neighbor, and kind to children and animals. But the sheer volume of facts shows that there is a radical side to islam, and there are a significant number of them that wish us dead, you as much as me.

I used an example much like this on another board I post at. (a statue of hitler at auschwitz).

It does not equate Muslim to Nazi. But, to build a mosque so near to the ground where so many suffered and died is incredibly insensitive and is a slap in the face to those who suffered along with them. And it absolutely parallels the insensitivity of erecting a Nazi memorial at any site associated with the holocaust.

I think it's probably legal to build it, and certainly inconsiderate and inhumane to do so.

Only if you assume that all of Islam is to blame. That, ironically, is the comparable to the Nazi scapegoating of the Jews.

 

[SW2SILVER]

YOU are putting out there, Chas Main. Don't pull yer punches. Seen the cover of Time magazine lately? I remember the horror of 9/11, and that wasn't a blip on the radar. Islam is a beautiful delusion that makes people do horrible things. A Mosque near ground zero?Let's ask Saudi Arabia if they will allow a synagogue within Mecca in the same spirit. They won't. They won't allow non- Muslims in. What do liberals think about that? They still stone people to death. Hell, they will put YOU to death if you offend enough of them. Scary stuff, they remind me of NAZIS. Potentially WORSE.

 

[Modbert]

YOU are putting out there, Chas Main. Don't pull yer punches. Seen the cover of Time magazine lately? I remember the horror of 9/11, and that wasn't a blip on the radar. Islam is a beautiful delusion that makes people do horrible things. A Mosque near ground zero?Let's ask Saudi Arabia if they will allow a synagogue within Mecca in the same spirit. They won't. They won't allow non- Muslims in. What do liberals think about that? They still stone people to death. Hell, they will put YOU to death if you offend enough of them. Scary stuff, they remind me of NAZIS. Potentially WORSE.

Why is Saudi Arabia the standard for tolerance? I thought this was America, you know, the country that is suppose to show that we're better than these countries because we allow other religions to have places of worship here without being blown up or the owners killed by people.

I hear people complaining about Liberals, yet nobody who hates the Saudis so much cared to comment when Bush was holding hands with them or kissing them.

 

[Samson]

Why is Saudi Arabia the standard for tolerance? I thought this was America, you know, the country that is suppose to show that we're better than these countries because we allow other religions to have places of worship here without being blown up or the owners killed by people.

I thought the standard for Tolerance in America was NYC?